Mob control, self protection, riot/looters etc

[cshold]

"Street mob problem"
A couple 12-pounders with canister, smoke & concussion should end that.

[rjohns94]

Malmute, thanks for keeping the discussion on target. Laws here in Pa. Do not allow a loaded rifle in the car. They do allow loaded handguns within the law. I carried a Rossi .357 done by NKJ for a good while but the unloaded part kinda got under my skin. I don't think the shotgun is the right choice for this discussion. I don't think shooting into a mob is the right answer, but having a weapon available to eliminate a particular personal threat within the mob, might be. A shotgun just does not fit that Bill. I originally didn't put the shotgun in as a choice but on my review, I added it for purposes of the discussion. I am enjoying hearing how the different locations we each live in factor into our sense of security and what we choose to carry. I'm currently following several news stories where, in social media, it's being discussed that in some cities, it' is threatened to have a "purge" day organized by some who want to take Hollywood to the streets as audio reality experience. Purge is a movie about an authorized day of complete lawlessness. Cities like Philly, Louisville, Dallas and others have been mentioned. I hope it does not materialize but in this world, anything is possible.

[1894cfan]

I am so afraid to admit that all the firearms that I might have used in a bad times situation have been lost in a boating accident on lake tahoe.

[1894c]

nothing beats an undocumented drone strike from a un-disclosed location from a friendly source... :)

drone_strike.jpg

[2X22]

Some pretty cool rifle photo's

[7.62 Precision]

Laws here in Pa. Do not allow a loaded rifle in the car. They do allow loaded handguns within the law.

Ahhh . . .

So again, your solution is here:


or here:


or here:


All pistols!
Where are restrictions, there lives innovation.

[rjohns94]

7.62- option one was what I was leaning to. I completely forgot about the mares leg shown as option 2. I was more focused on higher mag capability. I had forgotten about the Sig with the stabilizing brace shown in option 3. That may be just the ticket! Thanks

[OldWin]

A firearm that stays in a vehicle has a hard life. It is exposed to temperature extremes, dust, moisture and condensation. The reality is, it doesn't always get the maintenance it should.
For the parameters of this discussion, magazine or stripper clip fed rifles will rule the day (at least in my location). In most places around here it won't be a "city" environment. While it won't likely be a "mob", they will most certainly be armed.
There is nothing that raises an eyebrow in the back window of a truck around here. Many use SKS's here, and I gotta say, it's not a bad choice. Great and proven reliability, even with neglect, decent accuracy and power, and nobody is going to smash your back window to steal a $2000 rifle.
That said, were I to keep a rifle in my Jeep or truck, it would be my 18" M1A in a G.I. synthetic stock or my 1903A3 scout.
At least for now, things just aren't in a place where I feel I need a rifle on a day to day basis around town. When I head up the road to camp or a day of trail riding with the jeep, I have one of the above or my GSR.

[BobM]

I strapped on my .44 Ruger flattop, because I carry it everyday and shoot it most of those days. The other was a 20" Marlin Cowboy in .44, because it's my hiking rifle and I have it in my hand about 305 days of the year and I shoot it most of those days. Plus I have 15 extra rounds in my belt loops.

I guess I'd use the same guns if it were 4 or 14 simply because I'm most comfortable with them.

That's probably the most important part; whatever you choose, be very familiar with it.

[Lastmohecken]

In a vehicle, I like a Glock 22 or 17 with a few extra mags. The Ferguson Mo problem, if I lived close, I would prefer to stay home, in which case, I would probably have every gun I owned loaded to the gunnels, Handguns, shotguns and rifles, and mags, but having plenty of food and water on hand, so one didn't need venture out, would probably be more important.

If I lived close and still had to go drive to work, then I just might add a rifle to the Glock, for commuting. Probably an AR -15, something that I had no emotional regard for, in case I lost it. Another reason I like the Glock for pickup carry; they are not that expensive, and easy to replace, but pretty reliable, and mags are fairly easy to come by.

Where a guy or family could get in trouble is when traveling on the road in unfamiliar country, or through unfamiliar cities when something like that goes down, and there is no predicting when or where something like that could happen. I know when I travel I usually carry at least a couple of handguns and several mags, just in case I got caught out in a nation emergency. A long gun would probably bring too much attention if I had to walk out. It would be best to become the grey man, that no one really sees, keeping my weapons hidden from view.

One thing to keep in mind if you find yourself in a riot in a vehicle; the older rigs could be used as a bulldozier, by backing into things in reverse, or if really old enough maybe from the front if driving some good old heavy American Iron, but the newer rigs have gas tank switches that will shut off fuel if involved in a hard hit to the rear, and unfortunately the front ends are designed to crunch up, easily. So with a modern rig, more careful driving will be required then if you were driving an 80 something Lincoln or older pickup with a good bumper front and rear. But getting the heck out of Dodge would be my first thought.

[Malamute]

Well, you're still getting some off topic comments. Remember guys, this isn't about being at home. Assume any long gun is going to start out as unloaded and in a case if anything happens.

I'd suggest whatever long(er) gun you choose, having it be takedown or foldable may be a good idea, to be able to stow it in a day pack or small duffel in case you ended up in a wreck, or on foot for some reason in a time of unrest. I was thinking of suggesting an M-1 Carbine, but it doesnt take down easily like an AR.

Still liking the glock 9mm models and the availability of the 33 rd mags for a riot situation.

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

In a vehicle, I like a Glock 22 or 17 with a few extra mags. The Ferguson Mo problem, if I lived close, I would prefer to stay home, in which case, I would probably have every gun I owned loaded to the gunnels, Handguns, shotguns and rifles, and mags, but having plenty of food and water on hand, so one didn't need venture out, would probably be more important.

If I lived close and still had to go drive to work, then I just might add a rifle to the Glock, for commuting. Probably an AR -15, something that I had no emotional regard for, in case I lost it. Another reason I like the Glock for pickup carry; they are not that expensive, and easy to replace, but pretty reliable, and mags are fairly easy to come by.

Where a guy or family could get in trouble is when traveling on the road in unfamiliar country, or through unfamiliar cities when something like that goes down, and there is no predicting when or where something like that could happen. I know when I travel I usually carry at least a couple of handguns and several mags, just in case I got caught out in a nation emergency. A long gun would probably bring too much attention if I had to walk out. It would be best to become the grey man, that no one really sees, keeping my weapons hidden from view.

One thing to keep in mind if you find yourself in a riot in a vehicle; the older rigs could be used as a bulldozier, by backing into things in reverse, or if really old enough maybe from the front if driving some good old heavy American Iron, but the newer rigs have gas tank switches that will shut off fuel if involved in a hard hit to the rear, and unfortunately the front ends are designed to crunch up, easily. So with a modern rig, more careful driving will be required then if you were driving an 80 something Lincoln or older pickup with a good bumper front and rear. But getting the heck out of Dodge would be my first thought.

Well, you're still getting some off topic comments. Remember guys, this isn't about being at home. Assume any long gun is going to start out as unloaded and in a case if anything happens.

I'd suggest whatever long(er) gun you choose, having it be takedown or foldable may be a good idea, to be able to stow it in a day pack or small duffel in case you ended up in a wreck, or on foot for some reason in a time of unrest. I was thinking of suggesting an M-1 Carbine, but it doesnt take down easily like an AR.

Still liking the glock 9mm models and the availability of the 33 rd mags for a riot situation.

That's one of the reasons I went with the 40 cal Kel Tec Sub 2000. Folded and in a laptop bag it doesn't draw much attention. Rather than leave it in the truck for a smash and grab I have taken in restaurants and other places where concealed carry is normal. The bag has a sturdy shoulder strap and room for additional mags and ammo, even extra flashlight batteries.

Again, along with the old Glock 22 this is just my road trip kit. The real guns are back home.

[Malamute]

Good plan.

I take my model 12 Winchester in my motel rooms all the time when travelling. In the takedown case it doesn't attract any attention. Not quite in the realm of handy to take around in a day pack in town for regular-ish life though.


For curiosity sake, can anyone say how long is each half of a 16" barrel AR upper and lower with collapsing stock?

[OldWin]

Well, you're still getting some off topic comments. Remember guys, this isn't about being at home. Assume any long gun is going to start out as unloaded and in a case if anything happens.

I'd suggest whatever long(er) gun you choose, having it be takedown or foldable may be a good idea, to be able to stow it in a day pack or small duffel in case you ended up in a wreck, or on foot for some reason in a time of unrest. I was thinking of suggesting an M-1 Carbine, but it doesnt take down easily like an AR.

Still liking the glock 9mm models and the availability of the 33 rd mags for a riot situation.

I'd actually thought of the M1 Carbine too. I think set up as such in this Choate side folder its a good rig. But in my locale, the 18" M1A in a folder is a better choice.

[Panzercat]

Would worry about that Rossi Ranch Hand maresleg in terms of capacity. You're only getting 5 or 6 in that thing.

Though if you want a hicap beater that will get you through the night, go old school. Really old school.

Suomi 9mm carbine

[AJMD429]

Here's photos of my Calico 9mm in a laptop computer case; the barrel is off at the gunsmith getting threaded for the Mystic, but I wouldn't keep the Mystic with it if it indeed became a 'truck gun', as my Tax Stamp paperwork was bad enough ('breezed through' in a mere eight months ) the first time.

I'm thinking that reporting a stolen NFA item (suppressor, not the gun, which is just a normal 'pistol') would be a real hassle and they'd probably make me feel like I was the criminal instead of whoever stole it.

Anyway, it ain't a mil-spec battle-rifle, but I've shot several thousands of rounds through it without issue, including JHP, cast lead, and FMJ of course. The CETME type bolt lockup is new to me, but seems to handle suppressor back-pressure ok from what I've heard.



The magazine on the gun holds 50 rounds...



...and the larger spare one holds 100 rounds...

[jeepnik]

For "mob control, self protection, riot/looters ect."
A couple of hand grenades come to mind.

Those are pretty easy to make. But personally, I'd just use a field expedient weapon that's been popular for decades. Simple components that are easily available, and has been known to stop Russian tanks. Works well against unprotected humans, as well.

[Merle]

So we have in the news rioting in Mo, ISIS saying they are coming after us, violence in the streets in major cities. Is there scenarios you have considered the growing uncertainty in the world and how it might affect you and your family? I was considering my CCW in light of the news and I am finding it woefully lacking should a riot break out over a shooting, a food shortage, a power outage, storm aftermath, terrorist attack or any other such event. I'm considering keeping the 642 as a CCW but having something MORE, MAS, available close by in my vehicle. So my question is,

High capacity handgun or carbine, or shotgun? What do you or would you choose? Pistol caliber carbine? 5.56 platform? What features do you consider important on such a weapon? Open sights? Red dot? Collapsible stock? Single point sling? Scope?

Personally I'm reconsidering my position on a 5.56 platform and considering a gas piston Sig 5.56 with collapsable stock, 30 round magpul Mags, open flip up/down sights and a red dot sight. Sorry no levergun or shotgun. Has to be a mag fed weapon due to legal restrictions, and offer precise shooting to a reasonable distance. Looking at some pistol to carbine conversion units also.

Let me hear your thoughts.

Mini-14 in 5.56 with 30 round mags and a Browning Hi-power with 15 or 20 round mags.
Probably mostly because I already have them and am confident in their performance.
Shotguns don't hold enough rounds to make me happy in a big riot, especially if I am by myself....
My 10 cents worth, adjusted for inflation.

[Merle]

Nothing wrong with a good 870 Rem. I have several in various locations around the house. In my time as a firearms instructor, I found that the recoil of the shotgun was the major factor most shooters had problems with. There are other items of self defense around the house, but I have killed many a deer with #1 & 00 buck. Not crazy about the big hollow base standard rifled slug, but a 20 ga. Partition Gold 3" slug will shoot almost front to back lengthwise on Bambi. Lever guns are good, also, but a bit slow to reload. Whatever you use, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE!!! Shooting is a perishable skill. Ammo is somewhat of a problem, but most of us can manage 10-15 rounds a month, concentrating on sight picture, trigger press and proper breathing control. On a handgun, a proper grip is essential also. IMHO.

Yes, but this isn't about around the house. The reason for not wanting a shotgun were outlined in the OP. (as were the reasons for not wanting a levergun,... )

However, it seems as if a lot of folks either didn't read, or understand, the OP.
Or maybe they just know what you need better than you do.

[Lastmohecken]

For curiosity sake, can anyone say how long is each half of a 16" barrel AR upper and lower with collapsing stock?

My M4 Bushy measure 15" on the back part and 24 on the barrel and bolt, so about 24 inches would get it.

[AJMD429]

However, it seems as if a lot of folks either didn't read, or understand, the OP.
Or maybe they just know what you need better than you do.

Don't go taking all the fun out of it; of course we know better than the OP what the OP is asking. . . that's what Internet Forums are all about, isn't it...?

[Merle]

If I had to go to town on a regular basis I would want an AR or M1A in the truck over a levergun, but for out here they are more than adequate.

Just thinkin' - all this is just normal stuff to talk about to most of us here on this forum, who come from a wide variety of backgrounds, but share the common thread of being self-sufficient, well-educated, intelligent, hard-working, law-abiding citizens who have broad life experiences, and who place a high value on family and friends, and thus their safety, as well as that of the community at-large.

On the other hand, think how such a comment would sound to the self-anointed liberal intellectuals (who typically have less education than the average 'redneck' in 'flyover country' they make fun of), who have been raised in sheltered, socially intolerant, government-dependent households.

"OMG - they feel a need to have g-g-g-guns in their vehicles...!!!"

I agree with your statement, but "they" already think we're nuts - so whats the big deal?

[markinalpine]

Buddy, Back Porch, 15 Jul '09 reduced.jpg

Get a dog.
If you can, get a big dog.
And for maximum impact at night, get a big, black dog.

Mark

If somebody has already mentioned this, my apologies.

[AJMD429]

Get a dog.
If you can, get a big dog.
And for maximum impact at night, get a big, black dog.

Obviously, one must have an EBD to go with their EBR. . .

[Blaine]

No intended insult to anyone, but a murderous crowd is not likely to instantly materialize, and not likely in other than a large urban area. I'd be moving away from the epicenter at the very first sign of unrest. If I'm followed, the EDC will have to suffice. The Motorcycle, or Jeep really does not have a decent place to conceal a long gun. In the big RV Van, I can keep long guns, but I don't usually drive that into town.

[cshold]

No intended insult to anyone, but a murderous crowd is not likely to instantly materialize, and not likely in other than a large urban area. I'd be moving away from the epicenter at the very first sign of unrest. If I'm followed, the EDC will have to suffice. The Motorcycle, or Jeep really does not have a decent place to conceal a long gun. In the big RV Van, I can keep long guns, but I don't usually drive that into town.

Ditto that Blaine.
I'm heading in the opposite direction and putting as much real estate
between me and the mob as fast as I can.

[AJMD429]

No intended insult to anyone, but a murderous crowd is not likely to instantly materialize, and not likely in other than a large urban area. I'd be moving away from the epicenter at the very first sign of unrest.

You're right - the BEST 'survival tool' is just common sense, and having your brain 'on' instead of being oblivious. The ideal firearm to use in the process is still important, but first you have to live long enough to use it...

[Mescalero]

I still want a KelTec .22maag 30 round semi auto pistol, but not at todays prices.

[Malamute]

No intended insult to anyone, but a murderous crowd is not likely to instantly materialize, and not likely in other than a large urban area. I'd be moving away from the epicenter at the very first sign of unrest. If I'm followed, the EDC will have to suffice. The Motorcycle, or Jeep really does not have a decent place to conceal a long gun. In the big RV Van, I can keep long guns, but I don't usually drive that into town.

Ideally, yes, though its not inconceivable that the situation can form around you. You can be there for business or personal reasons, be involved in something, even hanging out in your hotel room, and suddenly you are in the middle or close to it. There was a Jewish guy in California that was at a theater, when a riot expanded (Rodney King period?) into the area the theater was in. Most people chose to hide in place, but as the security people were unarmed, and pretty much unable to do anything serious to protect anyone, he decided to leave with his wife. They had some dicey moments when trying to leave the area, and spent several days in fear at home. It was in a blog post or something similar, about how an unarmed Jew suddenly became a gun owner.

Found it. http://www.seraphicpress.com/jew-without-a-gun/

[rjohns94]

Yep, I agree to make or keep distance from any situation but panic happens quickly as do mobs. I didn't hear about the shooting of Brown until after the riots started, I was at a promise keepers event in Anaheim when a riot broke out while I was inside. I hunkered down for HUGO and had the opportunity to stay in place also for DAVID in CT. Sometimes you just get caught in stuff. I'm traveling the country with my work and I spend too much time near large populations away from home. Earthquake in California today highlights this stuff can happen at any time and could certainly happen without warning and without ability to be far away. IMHO

[Malamute]

Buddy, Back Porch, 15 Jul '09 reduced.jpg

Get a dog.
If you can, get a big dog.
And for maximum impact at night, get a big, black dog.

Dogs are great, but not always handy to take along in the car all the time when out of town, or for dealing with riots.

My M4 Bushy measure 15" on the back part and 24 on the barrel and bolt, so about 24 inches would get it.

Thanks.

This may be one of the situations where a short barreled rifle may be worth dealing with the paperwork on. An 11.5" barreled gun would take down to about 20", and be very compact for handling in a vehicle or building.

[Merle]

No intended insult to anyone, but a murderous crowd is not likely to instantly materialize, and not likely in other than a large urban area. I'd be moving away from the epicenter at the very first sign of unrest. If I'm followed, the EDC will have to suffice. The Motorcycle, or Jeep really does not have a decent place to conceal a long gun. In the big RV Van, I can keep long guns, but I don't usually drive that into town.

I guess you have never heard of a flash mob?

[Panzercat]

@ AJMD429
How's that Calico been working out for you? Is it a newer or older model? Reviews seem to be mixed with a lot of hearsay in-between. Something about the 100 round mag being iffy but the 50 being okay... I kinda want. Kinda not sure.

But then again, i'd rather have 45acp too

[Paladin]

Handguns are only carried to buy you time to get to your real gun.
That's why they are called sidearms. You don't always have your long gun within reach.

Of course if you know you are going to a gunfight, you take your biggest,baddest gun and all your friends with their biggest, baddest guns.

I agree with this and my minimum travel kit is my .44 marlin carbine to go with the pistol I am wearing. If I am expecting problems M1A, AR10, AR-15, AK, or MP-5 in 7.62x39 or 5.56. I do expect problems and have been involved in riots before, for in the future I do not have to stay and will E&E ASAP.

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

Yep, I agree to make or keep distance from any situation but panic happens quickly as do mobs. I didn't hear about the shooting of Brown until after the riots started, I was at a promise keepers event in Anaheim when a riot broke out while I was inside. I hunkered down for HUGO and had the opportunity to stay in place also for DAVID in CT. Sometimes you just get caught in stuff. I'm traveling the country with my work and I spend too much time near large populations away from home. Earthquake in California today highlights this stuff can happen at any time and could certainly happen without warning and without ability to be far away. IMHO

The Gulf Coast hurricanes and the aftermath is one of the reasons we no longer live in Southeast Texas and also why I have this Glock/Kel Tec setup. After the RITA hurricane the whole of Southeast Texas was basically under marshall law. It wasn't as crazy as New Orleans after Katrina, but at night there were a few incidents that did get out of hand. There was some looting and strong arm robberies, vandalisms, random shots heard at night. Much like New orleans these were mostly from the folks that didn't leave before the storm.
To get back you had to have a pass from the authorities to come back. In order to secure the gun shop a pass was not a problem. (helps to know who to call too.) After securing supplies and extra fuel within two days we drove back. Within 150 mile of home we made the DPS first checkpoint. From that point on through two more checkpoints the roads were pretty much deserted. So traffic wise it was a breeze to get back.
Once we got back we found the city water was still on but all other services like electricity and gas were off. After cleaning the debris from the driveway we manage to get the RV parked there by the house where it became home for the next 6 weeks while we waited for the electricity to be restored. Daylight hours was spent cleaning up and repairing wind damage and trees down. All the while the sub2000 was slung on my shoulder. Because we were running the RV on the generator the 80 gallons of gas I brought back didn't last. So, we did have to leave the place to get more gas. Early on gas wasn't to be found but by the second week some places had installed generators to run the gas pumps. One place wasn't even open, but if you had a credit card you could buy gas at their pump. But, what happened is some folks got their gas strong arm robbed from them at the pump. There was a Murphys/Walmart station that was held up for gas and cash. One of the pharmacies was looted. But that seemed to work out OK because the idiots ended up OD-ing on their loot. This never came out but I was told by my friend that secured the pass to get back home, there were two incidents where the cops ended up shooting some looters.
Bottom line is things can go downhill really fast. So, if you are out and about a concealable carbine is nice to have.

[Malamute]

Good comments Steve.

Something we need to keep in mind in situations like that, you cant always simply choose to stay home. At some point you may need to go out to get food, fuel, or supplies of some sort. If away from home, that can become more of an issue, as you probably cant stay prepared for holing up and waiting it out for any eventuality, like may be more realistic at home. Evacuating because of a natural disaster complicates things quite a lot more.

[AJMD429]

@ AJMD429
How's that Calico been working out for you? Is it a newer or older model? Reviews seem to be mixed with a lot of hearsay in-between. Something about the 100 round mag being iffy but the 50 being okay... I kinda want. Kinda not sure.

But then again, i'd rather have 45acp too

No 45 ACP, but they do make a 40 S&W version.

I have a rifle (carbine, folding stock), and pistol version, and the rifle came with a 100 round magazine and the pistol a 50 rounder. Both magazines work fine in both guns, as far as I can tell. I'd guess I have fired about 6,000 rounds through them, maybe 4,000 through the pistol and 2,000 through the rifle. Maybe a dozen 'jams' the whole time, and usually it was me failing to seat the magazine fully so the second round didn't feed, or forgetting to 'wind' the magazine (you load them with the spring pressure reduced then tighten it afterwards).

Back when I got them, they were $350 vs. an Uzi going for twice as much and far less capacity, plus ergonomically the Calico is very well balanced and easy to shoot accurately (even with the 100 round magazine on the pistol the weight is balanced directly over the hand). Since I wanted more of a 'fun' gun vs. one to skydive into enemy territory with, I opted for the Calico. If I wanted something utterly reliable and tough as nails, I'd get the Uzi, or any number of large 9mm handguns with extra magazines. I think the Calico's niche is if you want something as 'backup' in between the CCW handgun and the M1A or AR or Garand or whatever big-and-heavy stuff you have. I don't know if you can 'SBR' one, but if there is a paperwork path to make that legal, the pistol-length barrel on a shoulder-stocked receiver would be darned cool, per the OP goal of a shoulder-fired, more 'aimable' semiauto, in this case in a 'pistol' chambering.

Anyway, I've no beef with either the rifle or pistol, but haven't used them as 'hard' as you likely can use and abuse a true military-grade firearm.

[Poohgyrr]

Yeah, disasters are more likely around here, with whatever thuggery is part of the deal... The Napa earthquake isn't that far from Sacramento, and we have Folsom Dam. Other upstream dams could cause havoc as well. Our rivers used to flood every winter, until the levees were built and then made better over the last several decades. Some local psycho jerks tried too blow up a nearby town a few years ago - and some folks say it could have worked. If the power grid goes out, well - there we are. We have several natural obstacles I might have to cross to get home to the family- rivers, bridges, canals, etc... Between the laws and our car thieves, I am reluctant to keep any firearm(s) inside an unattended car.

And at my age, walking home is not something I relish and any car may not make it.

Car thieves and local laws make guns in unattended cars difficult. The pistol I wear and a bag in the car should help me get home to family.

[bluesman423]

The bottom line, as many have said, is situational awareness. Stay out of places riots are likely to happen .............. move out of them if necessary. Don't wanna give up the convenience? then I guess you take that chance and I am sorry for you.

If I am in any situation where a 9 shot 12 gauge or a 10 shot lever gun will not get me out alive I am probably gonna die anyway. I carry what I use on a weekly and sometimes daily basis and never feel undergunned because I pay attention. Some would even call me paranoid.

If you cannot afford to practice a lot with your AR15 or AK or whatever then you will not likely survive anyway. This is the bottom line. NOBODY knows how they will react until they see the elephant but there is some training that can help. Virtually all of this training will require you to furnish somewhere near 1000 rounds and, I promise you, will reveal both your weapon's and your own shortcomings.

I have attended five carbine courses for law enforcement high speed/ low drag guys. I can tell you one thing, less than 25% of non Colt ARs made it without breaking, NO Keltecs made it past 200 rounds on the first day, QUALITY AKs did very well. Pick what you want and theorize all you want but until you are willing to expend 1000 plus rounds training with minimal maintenance then you are wasting your time if you think you can repel a rioting mob.

The best way is still to stay out of it even if yo need to change wehre you live ........... second best is to use what you know best and shoot the most in an emergency.

[shooter]

Thanks.

This may be one of the situations where a short barreled rifle may be worth dealing with the paperwork on. An 11.5" barreled gun would take down to about 20", and be very compact for handling in a vehicle or building.

That's one of the reasons I've been looking very hard at the Sig AR platform pistols with the 'arm brace'. It's basically a legal SBR, but classified as a pistol so there is no tax stamp or wait time. I really didn't like them all that much until I found out you can slide the brace back to make it a more suitable length for a buttstock. The idea of a super compact AR "pistol" with a 7-9" barrel and the ability to put it up to your shoulder, as well as the capacity to hold 30 rounds is pretty appealing for an easily stow able truck gun.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q= ... 8883452933

[7.62 Precision]

That's one of the reasons I've been looking very hard at the Sig AR platform pistols with the 'arm brace' . . .

You can use the brace on any pistol based on an AR, AK, vz.58, etc.

[AJMD429]

That's one of the reasons I've been looking very hard at the Sig AR platform pistols with the 'arm brace' . . .

You can use the brace on any pistol based on an AR, AK, vz.58, etc.

Where can you get the brace separately...?

[2ndovc]

I've told this story here before but it's been awhile.
In 2003 the North East experienced a black out that stretched from Ontario down into Ohio and east to Mass. that left millions without power from a few hours to several days. I was still living on my small farm in central OH when it happened and in
my fairly unpopulated neighborhood things were pretty quiet. People were out visiting, pulling out grills etc.
A few hours later I got a call from my then girlfriend, now wife, asking me to come over because it was getting a little scary in her "urban" neighborhood.
I loaded my dogs, AR-15 and 1911 w/ two canvass bags with magazines and ammunition and headed north. It took me about an hour to get to town and it was just before dark. The police had their hands full with traffic control as it was a hot night and many people decided to go for a drive to cool off. Getting into one of the tougher parts of town there were groups of people all over, blocking streets and seemingly looking for trouble. I pulled inside the gate at my girl's place turned out the dogs who proceeded to make a ruckus and didn't try to hide the cased rifle and bags as I went inside.
After watching the situation for about 15 minutes I told Blondie and her boys to pack a bag and load up her Jeep. She was very concerned about her house. I told her that it's insured and not to worry about it. She took a few important things and we left very quietly.
I'm convinced that if the power that summer had been out a few more days there would have been some very bad things happening.
When we got back to my place the neighbors had set up a little band and a big cook out and everyone was having a great time. Like some others have said, it has a lot to do with where you are and where you can get to. We lived about 45 miles apart at the time but it seemed like two different worlds!
My Colt AR w/ an Eotech and my 1911 or these days a Glock 19 are always my first GO TO's for surgical target removal.

jb

[7.62 Precision]

That's one of the reasons I've been looking very hard at the Sig AR platform pistols with the 'arm brace' . . .

You can use the brace on any pistol based on an AR, AK, vz.58, etc.

Where can you get the brace separately...?

http://www.brownells.com/handgun-parts/ ... 65542.aspx

[Lastmohecken]

No intended insult to anyone, but a murderous crowd is not likely to instantly materialize, and not likely in other than a large urban area. I'd be moving away from the epicenter at the very first sign of unrest. If I'm followed, the EDC will have to suffice. The Motorcycle, or Jeep really does not have a decent place to conceal a long gun. In the big RV Van, I can keep long guns, but I don't usually drive that into town.

I guess you have never heard of a flash mob?

I guess a flash mob could start. But the thing I can see happening or shall I say one of the dangers, (and this actually did happen during the Rodney King riots because I remember seeing it on TV) is unknowingly driving into a riot, while traveling through a big city. At the beginnings of festivities many people can be caught unawares while on the road, and possible removed from local or national news. I know I don't listen the the radio, much anymore because the the music is stuff a the commercials and mindless banter of the radio announcers get on my nerves, so I could travel hundreds of miles and come into a big city, just trying to get from point A to point B.

I remember getting hung up in traffic in St Louis one time, and there is noting I could do, I was stuck in traffic with no escape; so a flash mob could be on you in nothing flat, it wouldn't even have to be a flash mob, just a plain old riot.

[JerryB]

This was on my mind yesterday when we made the 100 mile trip down to Little Rock for a doctor appointment. Yes we were well prepared, straight down and straight back except for a stop at Fort Thompson gun shop.

[Merle]

No intended insult to anyone, but a murderous crowd is not likely to instantly materialize, and not likely in other than a large urban area. I'd be moving away from the epicenter at the very first sign of unrest. If I'm followed, the EDC will have to suffice. The Motorcycle, or Jeep really does not have a decent place to conceal a long gun. In the big RV Van, I can keep long guns, but I don't usually drive that into town.

I guess you have never heard of a flash mob?

I guess a flash mob could start. But the thing I can see happening or shall I say one of the dangers, (and this actually did happen during the Rodney King riots because I remember seeing it on TV) is unknowingly driving into a riot, while traveling through a big city. At the beginnings of festivities many people can be caught unawares while on the road, and possible removed from local or national news. I know I don't listen the the radio, much anymore because the the music is stuff a the commercials and mindless banter of the radio announcers get on my nerves, so I could travel hundreds of miles and come into a big city, just trying to get from point A to point B.

I remember getting hung up in traffic in St Louis one time, and there is noting I could do, I was stuck in traffic with no escape; so a flash mob could be on you in nothing flat, it wouldn't even have to be a flash mob, just a plain old riot.

I have seen several flash mobs caught on security camera. If you happen to be in that store it will be tough to get out at all, let alone unharmed.

And don't forget those punks who play the knockout game, or even worse versions.

[flyfisher66048]

I think any high capacity gun (snubby 38s need not apply) applied in an accurately and aggressively will probably handle any such situations. These folks are still humans and have a desire to stay alive. Shoot 5 or 6 of them dead quickly, and I think the rest will decide they want to be some place else. they are not zombies yet.

They key is to have the ability to survive the initial attack through accurate high volume gunfire.

My main ccw is a Glock 19 with a trijicon RMR sight milled into the slide. I normally carry 2 spare mags when I'm out and about in the city.

My next firearm purchase will be a 10.5 inch AR-15 pistol. Most of the benefits of a SBR with none of the hassles. I like to think of it as a flash bang grenade that shoots bullets.

[AJMD429]

My next firearm purchase will be a 10.5 inch AR-15 pistol. Most of the benefits of a SBR with none of the hassles. I like to think of it as a flash bang grenade that shoots bullets.

Yep. I have a 14-shot 45 ACP handgun, and just got some 20-round magazines for it, so the next step in 'riot survival' would be the sort-of 'handgun' version of an AR-15...

[jcw]

Grizz, the Kel-Tec SU-16 Is a great little rifle. Not a lot of personal experience with one but I have shot ones belonging to other shooters at the range. BTW not one of them was willing to part with theirs. On you tube search out the nutinfancy channel. He has reviews that are some of the best out there.