Offhand thread on another forum.

[Canuck Bob]

My two favorite Canadian forums are flooded with threads like, "Your Hunting Rifle shoots 1 MOA at 200 yards all day long, PROVE IT". Simple rules are posted and pics are required. The Alberta forum had an offhand group challenge for hunters like this. Basically 3 5 shot groups on a 8" circle at 100 yards. It was amazing to see guys post a few pics of groups around 5" and braggin! The usual 1/2 MOA crowd were a bit quiet.

The thread ran awhile and got a good look but only a few guys actually posted targets for proof. It was educational. I'm going to start trying to shoot some offhand groups semi-serious. Last time out my skill level was terrible offhand. I like to think 6" groups at 150 or 200 would make me real happy. Putting 5 on a 8 1/2X11 copy paper is a challenge sadly.

[BrentD]

When you shoot 6" groups at 200 consistently, let me know, I want to start betting on you as the next national champ in one discipline or another.

[oldgerboy]

A few years ago ... about 40 or so ... I did a lot of competitive flint lock shooting. It was always off hand, kneeling, or sitting ... mostly standing. I could consistently hit an 18 inch gong at 200 yards with my 42 inch swamped and tapered Getz barreled 45. That was a good bit better than average. Today I was thrilled to have hit a groundhog in the neck ... was aiming at it's head ... at about 25 yards with the 22 mag standing on my hind legs.
It takes a lot of practice to shoot off hand and be good at it.

[carbluesnake]

Shooting takes consistent practice and a lot of dry fire. 48 years ago when I was 17 I decided to become proficient from sitting position. My first 5 shot groups at 200 yds. were 9 inches, but within a month were whittled down to consistent 4" groups at 200 yds. Obviously, this was with optics. Many of my friends through the years have seen me shoot 1 1/4-1 1/2 inch groups from sitting at 100 yards. Put me in standing position and my groups at 100 yds would probably be 20". I have never applied myself to that position. Two days ago, I shot a 140 lb. wild hog at 80-90 yds. with my 45 auto. He sat back on his haunches and fell over. Never took a step. All of that to say lots of quality practice and over a short amount of time will make a big difference in off hand shooting.

[BobM]

My local club started holding what they call a "Field Match", all 40 rds shot at 200 yds. The first 10 are offhand. There's usually quite a difference in shooter's offhand vs. prone scores.

[carbluesnake]

When I was first teaching myself to shoot, I watched a guy with a military Springfield with iron sights put 5 shots prone into a 6" circle at 300 yds. I was amazed and realized it was possible to shoot way better than most people think. Elmer Keith was another one. He wrote it and I believed it. A friend of mine reminded me of a time when I moved a 12 oz. Coke can at 200 yds 3 times in a row with my Ruger 41 mag. I am not saying I hit it every time, but the can was kicked a foot or two all three times. That is the kind of shooting I have to see to believe, but I was there, and I did it.

[Canuck Bob]

I must admit I chose my goal arbitrarily. Realistically I'm using recycled copy paper and hoping to put them on the paper at 100 meters. If it shoots well mid-range with cast bullets the Win 94 32 Special will be my offhand target rifle. A 1950s 94 carbine with a Lyman 66 steel sight.

[AJMD429]

I have a couple GUNS that can shoot cloverleafs at 100 yards for 5 shots, or perhaps 10 shots.

ME, on the other hand, can 'shoot' that well, if (and only if) I'm using a sandbagged-rest...

At my age, without at least a 20x scope, I can't even SEE "1 MOA"...

OTOH, any good stalker/hunter, and a reliable firearm that shoots 4 MOA, will likely get his game, EVERY TIME. A soldier or self-defenser getting 8 MOA rapidly and repeatably will likely survive his battle.

Snipers, or competitive benchresters, who can't shoot 1/4 MOA at twice the distance, in the wind and rain, probably will fade into obscurity.

[pshort]

Howdy Folks,
When I run into a "super shooter", I invite them out to my range to offer them $100 every time they can duplicate their feat. Every time they miss, they pay me $20.....
Nobody has taken me up on it....
This offer is only made to the most annoying !
My personal goal is to hit an 8" gong, offhand at 100yds, almost every time, with my favorite rifles.
(Open sights only)
Haven't gotten there yet.. It'll keep me busy for awhile....

Paul

[Sixgun]

In silhouette, I have shot with the best of them. When upstate, I shoot alongside of the National champion and other master class shooters. (I'm AAA) You guys know how big the animal silhouettes are. Well, when the master class shooters, along with the N.Champ miss these animals, as it's extremely rare for a perfect 40x40, it shows that standing on your hind legs ain't that easy.

I'll tip my hat to the guy who can shoot a 6" group at 200.... If he can do it on demand. ----6

[carbluesnake]

I thought I did pretty well on the 22 pistol silhouete when I shot 28. I know and have known the real shooters. I usually shoot about 50% of their scores. The real shooters make it look so simple.

[piller]

In the Army we had a Human Upper Torso sized target at the 1100 meter mark. With the open sights on the M60, I hit it with a 6 round burst every time. Whether it was 1 round or all 6, I don't know. All I know is that it went down and cycled back up later when it was time to engage it again. My eyesight can't do that anymore. Where the rounds hit didn't matter since a peripheral hit or a center mass hit still put the target down. It was about 18 inches wide by 24 inches tall. The position was prone using the bipod legs on the barrel. I consider that to be pretty decent shooting. If you think it is easy, then try it yourself. Not everyone could do it. In fact, you could miss the 1100 meter target every time and still qualify. In my old unit, the gunner and assistant gunner were chosen by which 4 were the most accurate at the range. We had 2 guns in the platoon. I now limit my open sight shots to 50 yards or thereabouts. With a scope on a couple of my rifles, I can do pretty good from a sandbag at the 100 yard range. Hunting is a different matter since there are usually no sandbags and no perfect shots.

[7.62 Precision]

I must admit I chose my goal arbitrarily. Realistically I'm using recycled copy paper and hoping to put them on the paper at 100 meters. If it shoots well mid-range with cast bullets the Win 94 32 Special will be my offhand target rifle. A 1950s 94 carbine with a Lyman 66 steel sight.

An A4 or 8.5x11 sheet of paper basically covers the vital area on a human.

We use them as targets in training. If you put 7 out of 10 shots on the paper at any given range, you are at the right ratio of speed and accuracy. More misses than that, and you are shooting too fast an too inaccurately for that range. All ten on the paper in a little group and you are shooting too slow. (if you are putting 7 out of 10 on the paper, the other three will still be on the body).
This is for fighting of course, not for hunting, etc.

[7.62 Precision]

Gun forum basement-dwellers, who can't shoot 1/4 MOA at twice the distance, in the wind and rain, probably will fade into obscurity.

I fixed it for you.

I can shoot a 1/4 MOA group. Sometimes. By accident. I may have a rifle/optic/ammo combination capable of doing it consistantly, but I don't know.

Using the Beam Hit Sniper Trainer system, I could track movement of the rifle before and after the trigger breaks. It is so sensitive, it charts the vibration from the firing pin dropping. With an M24 on a bipod and monopod, level surface, in the prone, indoors, I could fire the rifle with absolutely zero movement before and after the trigger broke.

Add in all the variables of real shooting and that changes very quickly. Go to offhand shooting and it totally changes the game. If I bet that I could beat at least 60% of you guys in an offhand match, I am very confident that I would lose.

A 100 yard range with covered shooting benches is one of the worst things for hunting. Shooters everywhere gain a false sense of skill on the range and are overconfident heading into the field.

[firefuzz]

A 100 yard range with covered shooting benches is one of the worst things for hunting. Shooters everywhere gain a false sense of skill on the range and are overconfident heading into the field.

Amen to that. I almost ruined myself after I learned what a shooting bench was and started shooting primarily for groups. My shooting skills diminished greatly. Now all I do from a bench is sight a rifle in and it never goes back to the bench unless there's a problem or I have to sight it in again. Anymore I don't do as much free standing shooting as I did years ago, very little over a hundred yards and with short time limits, snap shooting more or less. I do practice a lot from the kneeling, out to three hundred yards, and prone at all ranges.

Rob

[vancelw]

What?!?!?

You mean it's not sufficient to set up a paper plate at 25 yards, shoot once, hit it once, and call it good for the rest of deer season?

I wish I had a dollar for every time I've heard someone say, "If I can hit a paper plate I can hit the vitals of a deer."

The first line-of-sight crossing on many, many sight-in scenarios would be in that pie plate area....the second line-of-sight crossing is another matter entirely.

I don't guess I have ever tried to shoot for group offhand (not since USMC anyway). Now my curiosity is up. I seldom, if ever, shoot offhand when hunting. I will always try to grab a rest or drop to a knee whenever possible. Especially when hunting with my heavy, iron-sighted rifles that I tend to drop the muzzle too soon.

[EdinCT]

William Bell the ivory hunter once said the man who can keep his shots in 6" at 50 yards off hand would do pretty well hunting. Times change people shoot farther now and we don't carry our rifles every day. I used to try to shoot my 22 off hand every week but the ammo shortage got me, may need to break out the Gamo.

[Griff]

Offhand is a position of last resort.

[Malamute]

Offhand is a position of last resort.

I agree, but since its the hardest, I do it the most in practice. One of my favorites is the 600 yard plate offhand with the 308 Ruger and 4x scope. I've hit it with an old 94 carbine and early carbine sights, but was cheating and kneeling. Need to get back in shape hitting stuff in the air though.

Same idea with pistol shooting. One handed is hardest, so I do it the most, as well as I just find it interesting. After doing it for several years, got to the point of being able to make fairly consistent first round hits on the 300 yard plate with the ex's G-19 one handed, and a pleasing number of times through the magazine.

[Blaine]

This is where I always throw in one of my favorite Jeff Cooper lines.....He favored the 1 shot group. Bang! Did you hit it? Yes! Good group

[7.62 Precision]

Offhand is a position of last resort.

Yes, and I don't take any long shots offhand, when hunting. When hunting, you have to understand the limits of what you can do, and a lot of guys do all of their shooting from the bench or offhand really limit their ability in the field. They will lose a lot of shots of they don't practice sitting, kneeling, prone, standing with support, shooting off a pack frame, etc.

The position you shoot from depends on range to the target and how much time you have to take the shot, with other considerations like how the terrain limits your shooting positions.

The closer a target is, the less time you have to take the shot. This is the same in hunting and combat.

I have never shot an animal with an offhand shot over 100 meters. I shot a deer once at about 100 meters offhand with a Model 71 - it was a quick shot, and there were two deer, one beyond the other. Just as the trigger broke, the one I was shooting at spun and bolted, and I hit the other one right through the hindquarters, destroying a ton of meat. I'm pretty sure that if I had been shooting from a more stable position, I would not have hit that deer that way. The instinctive shifting of my aim would not have been as easy in a more stable position.

I have shot deer, moose, bear, and many smaller animals like fur bearers and birds off-hand. In almost every case, it was a close shot. I shot a moose at 10 feet, a bear at 7 feet, a raccoon at 20 feet, etc.

The type of rifle you are shooting makes a difference, too. Leverguns are generally balance nicely for off-hand shooting. When you shoulder a Model 71 Winchester, it seems to find the target and stay on target on its own. A '95 Winchester carbine balances really nicely for me. Some of the african-style rifles are built to balance well off-hand. An AR-15, configured simply, is easy to aim and shoot offhand.

On the other hand, many of the rifles used today are not built or configured to balance offhand, and are better suited to bench or bipod use. A couple weeks ago I was trying to hit a one pound jar of tannerite, half-hidden behind the ground, at about 275 meters offhand with my .260 Remington AR. That rifle has a 24" bull barrel and the poorer offhand balance of the AR-10-style rifle. I could not hit the target, and had to finally shoot it off of a camera tripod (it was positioned so it could only be seen from a standing position). I likely could have hit it more easily with iron sights and a levergun. Even a bolt rifle with a heavy bull barrel still balances better offhand than the AR-10 with a bull barrel.

[retmech]

I have an 8" round steel swinger that I shoot offhand at 100 yds with a tang sighted levergun. I am a happy camper with 7 or 8 hits out of ten. I probably average closer to 5 or 6. That front sight sure moves around a lot!

[AJMD429]

A 100 yard range with covered shooting benches is one of the worst things for hunting. Shooters everywhere gain a false sense of skill on the range and are overconfident heading into the field.

Agreed. I always think of the range/bench as where one perfects the rifle, and sighting system, then once that is taken care of, the next step is perfecting the technique, and tactics, using 'field' positions.

[Griff]

A 100 yard range with covered shooting benches is one of the worst things for hunting. Shooters everywhere gain a false sense of skill on the range and are overconfident heading into the field.

Agreed. I always think of the range/bench as where one perfects the LOAD, the rifle, and sighting system, then once that is taken care of, the next step is perfecting the technique, and tactics, using 'field' positions.

Fixed that for ya!

[AJMD429]

A 100 yard range with covered shooting benches is one of the worst things for hunting. Shooters everywhere gain a false sense of skill on the range and are overconfident heading into the field.

Agreed. I always think of the range/bench as where one perfects the LOAD, the rifle, and sighting system, then once that is taken care of, the next step is perfecting the technique, and tactics, using 'field' positions.

Fixed that for ya!

Yep. That's about perfect...

How about...

Use the Range to perfect the rifle and sighting system.
Then the Chronograph to perfect the load.
Then use Field Positions to perfect the techniques and tactic.

[CowboyTutt]

Doc, splitting hairs here but how about reversing the first two?

Chronograph the load,

Range test it with sights, make corrections

Improve technique of choice?

Actually, I think I see what you meant and that you wanted to have an accurate sighting system first. I just sort of took that for granted.

Did I say I love Leverguns most of all???? OK, I have a few others with a bolt that are pretty nice.

-Tutt

[Tactical Lever]

My two favorite Canadian forums are flooded with threads like, "Your Hunting Rifle shoots 1 MOA at 200 yards all day long, PROVE IT". Simple rules are posted and pics are required. The Alberta forum had an offhand group challenge for hunters like this. Basically 3 5 shot groups on a 8" circle at 100 yards. It was amazing to see guys post a few pics of groups around 5" and braggin! The usual 1/2 MOA crowd were a bit quiet.

The thread ran awhile and got a good look but only a few guys actually posted targets for proof. It was educational. I'm going to start trying to shoot some offhand groups semi-serious. Last time out my skill level was terrible offhand. I like to think 6" groups at 150 or 200 would make me real happy. Putting 5 on a 8 1/2X11 copy paper is a challenge sadly.

I have seen the threads; it does not interest me at all in trying to prove something. Not sure what the point is, I shoot for my own satisfaction.

I used to be pretty good offhand, but to say how good would either come across as a tall tale or bragging.

Now I am merely "alright". I like shooting offhand, probably not so great at groups, but I am a diehard plinker.

[Canuck Bob]

Tactical, I was in Fox Creek last Monday!

I do find these threads a bit much on the AO site and Gunnutz. I no longer hunt and am becoming a fun shooter. Therefore interesting training methods that make range shooting fun and effective like this are of interest. I considered joining the challenge but decided just to use the ideas for personal fun. I shoot at copy paper with no aim point, just blank paper. It has been challenging but it is possible to tighten up groups from the bench. Last time out with a 22 I tried calling shots so to speak to spots on the sheet. I'm going to add 7.62's method of picking up my speed to try and hit 7 out of 10.

For years I considered myself a good offhand shot because of hunting and plinking first shot hits. In fact I shot mainly offhand for years as I didn't use a scope and kept my normal range on the shorter side.

[Tactical Lever]

Tactical, I was in Fox Creek last Monday!

I do find these threads a bit much on the AO site and Gunnutz. I no longer hunt and am becoming a fun shooter. Therefore interesting training methods that make range shooting fun and effective like this are of interest. I considered joining the challenge but decided just to use the ideas for personal fun. I shoot at copy paper with no aim point, just blank paper. It has been challenging but it is possible to tighten up groups from the bench. Last time out with a 22 I tried calling shots so to speak to spots on the sheet. I'm going to add 7.62's method of picking up my speed to try and hit 7 out of 10.

For years I considered myself a good offhand shot because of hunting and plinking first shot hits. In fact I shot mainly offhand for years as I didn't use a scope and kept my normal range on the shorter side.

I find a smaller aiming point to be of some help when shooting to keep things tighter. My main problem these days is consistency.

If you are around Fox shoot me a message; if you are in the mood we can shoot the breeze, or head out the range and shoot it up out there.

[KirkD]

When practicing up for hunting in the fall and shooting free standing, offhand, no elbow resting on chest, with iron sights, I consider it good shooting for me if I can get all five shots into the six-inch black circle at 100 yards (which is the level of proficiency I set for myself each fall). The best I have ever done when shooting as described above is a 5 shot group of 2 & 1/8" at 100 yards shot with an original Winchester Model 1873 44-40. I have never come close to beating that wild fluke before or since when shooting offhand. I have not done any offhand shooting with a scope, however, but I plan to. At 200 yards, I would take my hat of to any person who could get a freestanding, offhand group of 6" two times out of five with iron sights. I would be happy to just to get a 12" group at that range shooting offhand.

[BAGTIC]

Shooting at any known range has little relevance to hunting. Range estimation is the great bugaboo. Also shooting at the same target at the same range multiple times. I don't know any real life hunting situation where one can get ten shots at a standing target scores seven hits, usually the last seven, and consider it good field shooting.

The true test is what can you do the first shot against a target of uncertain dimensions at an unknown range.

[vancelw]

Shooting at known ranges is VERY relevant to hunting. If you can't hit at known ranges, you SURELY can't hit at unknown ranges.
And you can never learn to hit "the first shot against a target of uncertain dimensions at an unknown range" by doing it ONLY while hunting. Practice is important.

When I'm hunting, I KNOW the size of my target. (i.e. the size of the vitals for the animals I am hunting).
Range estimation is very important to hunting. Sighting in your rifles for maximum point blank range reduces that need, but you still need to know if your target is beyond your MPBR.

You owe it to the game not to treat it like a lottery ticket...HOPING you'll get lucky instead of working to make sure you do.

[Tactical Lever]

When practicing up for hunting in the fall and shooting free standing, offhand, no elbow resting on chest, with iron sights, I consider it good shooting for me if I can get all five shots into the six-inch black circle at 100 yards (which is the level of proficiency I set for myself each fall). The best I have ever done when shooting as described above is a 5 shot group of 2 & 1/8" at 100 yards shot with an original Winchester Model 1873 44-40. I have never come close to beating that wild fluke before or since when shooting offhand. I have not done any offhand shooting with a scope, however, but I plan to. At 200 yards, I would take my hat of to any person who could get a freestanding, offhand group of 6" two times out of five with iron sights. I would be happy to just to get a 12" group at that range shooting offhand.

Didn't you post an enviable group once on CGN? It looked like a decent bench group for an old classic... and then you let it slip that is was from an old lever action, offhand, with only the front sight!

IIRC....

[KirkD]

Didn't you post an enviable group once on CGN? It looked like a decent bench group for an old classic... and then you let it slip that is was from an old lever action, offhand, with only the front sight!

I'm pretty sure I had a rear sight on that rifle. The only offhand shooting (as far as I can recall) I've practiced with no rear sight is with a single shot 12 Ga smoothbore at 75 yards, with only a front bead. It works pretty good. At this stage of the summer, I'm working on load development for a couple cartridges, but I'll soon be practicing offhand shooting in prep for hunting Moose and Deer this fall. Then we shall see what I can do with practice.