.30 WCF terminal ballistics

[Ray Newman]

Came across this link on the Marlin Owners forum. From the article:

“Closing Comments

“Heated debate often arises when discussing the merits and limitations of the .30-30. It cannot be reiterated enough, that the single greatest selling point of the .30-30, is not the cartridge itself but the compact, portable lever action rifles that house it. Second to this, the ammunition is plentiful and affordable, something which cannot be said of the more potent carbine cartridges. At close ranges, the .30-30 is a clean, effective killer of medium game. To those who use and rely on the .30-30, these factors outweigh any potential negative aspects of this cartridge in comparison to more potent, modern cartridge designs.”

Read all ‘bout it:
http://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowled ... 0+WCF.html

[Bill in Oregon]

Ray, thank you for that link. That's the most definitive discussion of .30 WCF terminal ballistics I have ever read. Very useful stuff indeed.

[gamekeeper]

Ray, thank you for that link. That's the most definitive discussion of .30 WCF terminal ballistics I have ever read. Very useful stuff indeed.

+ 1.

[Malamute]

Interesting write up, though I question a couple of their statements. I don't believe the FMJ bullet was all that was available for the 30-30 in the beginning, as they stated. It was one load available, but I believe the soft point was the primary game bullet available. If anyone has citation of that being incorrect, please post it. The other, I've shot Speer and Hornady 170 gr bullets side by side into wet lap, the Speers seemed harder/tougher more resistant to expansion than the Hornadys. If anyone has different results or thoughts, I'd like to learn more.

I'm in general agreement about the killing power. It works, but isn't anything spectacular by any means, unless we're talking smaller game. It's truly spectacular on skunks! Placement seems more important than with other calibers I've used on deer.

[Grizz]

all those .30s can shoot the same bullets, so I see the 300 WMag as the long range 30-30, the .308 as the mid-range 30-30, and the 30-30 as the 30-30 range 30-30.

at some point in the 300's trajectory it will have the 100 yard impact velocity of the 30-30. same same near as I can tell.

the .30s are a great small bore group of options

[Malamute]

That is theoretically true, though I've had better terminal results with the '06 at 250-300 yards with 180's on deer and antelope than with the 30-30 at 75 yards with 170's. I don't know why (havent compared velocities at those ranges), but thats been my experience, limited as it is.

[7.62 Precision]

I've had better terminal results with the '06 at 250-300 yards with 180's on deer and antelope than with the 30-30 at 75 yards with 170's. I don't know why (havent compared velocities at those ranges), but thats been my experience, limited as it is.

Velocity is not the only factor. Also important are sectional densities and bullet construction.

This is one of the reasons people say that a 6.5 or 7mm "kills better" than a .30 caliber, in their experience, even when bullet weights are close and velocities are similar.

[Malamute]

True, good point, though they are all 30 cal, and close in weight. The loads I used on antelope were PMC 180 gr spritzer soft point. At an average 300 yards, they absolutely hammered the 6 antelope I shot, and were pretty destructive, more than I expected for that range. I wouldn't use them on larger animals after seeing how they did on the antelope. I've also used the Rem spritzer core-loct 180's, as I sort of inherited some with a rifle. They seem to be a decent general purpose game bullet, and thump deer very positively @ 250-300-ish yards. I've used Hornady and Speer 170's on some game, only two deer. Last one didn't react to the shot at first, though it wasn't too bad, and about 60 yards maybe. 4 hits and it finally stayed down.

[Griff]

I've only used the Federal Power-Shok 150's on deer, all in the <150lb live category and have yet to have to shoot one twice. Ranges from ~25 yards to over 200.

[w30wcf]

Interesting write up, though I question a couple of their statements. I don't believe the FMJ bullet was all that was available for the 30-30 in the beginning, as they stated. It was one load available, but I believe the soft point was the primary game bullet available. If anyone has citation of that being incorrect, please post it.....

Winchester's 1895 catalog only shows a full patched cartridge. In their 1896 catalog, the soft point bullet has been added.

w30wcf

[BrentD]

I would have guessed that the first .30-30 loads were cast bullets. But apparently not. Learn something every day. Thanks.

[Malamute]

Interesting write up, though I question a couple of their statements. I don't believe the FMJ bullet was all that was available for the 30-30 in the beginning, as they stated. It was one load available, but I believe the soft point was the primary game bullet available. If anyone has citation of that being incorrect, please post it.....

Winchester's 1895 catalog only shows a full patched cartridge. In their 1896 catalog, the soft point bullet has been added.

w30wcf

Interesting, thanks!

[Canuck Bob]

86er did a test of bullets for the 30-30. He called the threads "30-30 Premium bullet tests Part 1 to 4". Here is Part 1.

http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... ullet+test

He found the Speer Hot Cor as a sturdy bullet of harder construction as Malamute noted above. Contrary to the articles statement. I do find it a good article but I'm not as impressed with hydro shock as the author is. I found 243 up close with lots of hydro shock bt not anything spectacular in terminal performance. Other than range my 7MM Mag with partitions didn't out perform my 444. The velocity range of the 30-30 or 303 Brit are a good range for cup and core and a balance for expansion and penetration. I like the FTX idea as a coyote bullet!

[1894c]

thank you for posting the article...I have never felt under-gunned in using the .30-W.C.F. in the Pacific Northwest, I fully understand my limitations, but I also know that the 30-30 is better than many will ever give it credit... :)

[7.62 Precision]

True, good point, though they are all 30 cal, and close in weight.

So the SD on a round or flat-nosed bullet and a spritzer of the same diameter and similar weight will be different. I have heard good things about the PMC hunting ammo, and spoken with some people in the know, as well as corresponding with some people at PMC. It seems the PMC hunting ammo might be some pretty good stuff that is under-apreciated.

We don't know everything about terminal ballistics, so we also can't explain scientifically everything we can observe in practice.

[7.62 Precision]

I do find it a good article but I'm not as impressed with hydro shock as the author is.

I also found that the author was very fond of the hydrostatic shock theory, to the point hat instead of mentioning it in a vague ways like most people do, he is actually talking in detail about hydrostatic shock traveling up to the spine to incapacitate the animal, as if it is scientific fact.

I have trouble fully trusting someone like that for advice on the wounding capabilities of any given cartridge, because that belief is going to taint his opinion of the cartridge.

[Malamute]

True, good point, though they are all 30 cal, and close in weight.

So the SD on a round or flat-nosed bullet and a spritzer of the same diameter and similar weight will be different. I have heard good things about the PMC hunting ammo, and spoken with some people in the know, as well as corresponding with some people at PMC. It seems the PMC hunting ammo might be some pretty good stuff that is under-apreciated.

We don't know everything about terminal ballistics, so we also can't explain scientifically everything we can observe in practice.

I thought the PNC '06 bullets were pretty fragile judging from the destruction on antelope @ 300 yards, but that was the mid 80's, I would guess they may have changed some since then. It was quite accurate ammo.

I agree about the hydrostatic shock being over rated in general (or misapplied, as in this case). It seems to be a factor in some instances, but there also seems to be a threshold where it doesn't behave the same. It's probably predictable to a degree in deer size animals with higher velocity cartridges. Once one gets above deer sized animals, it gets much harder to do also. I think in the final analysis, it still comes down to simple tissue destruction (and which tissues you affect, IE placement). We like it when there isn't too much meat damage, but we also like solid anchoring shots. I'm willing to give up some meat to get more DRT effect, and effective odd angle shots. What I've seen with the '06 seems like a good balance for my neighborhood. The increase in terminal effect over the 30-30 seems significant.

[cshold]

http://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/terminal.html

[cshold]

http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ball ... anics.html

[BigSky56]

never worried about shock or knock down values. I use the old subsistence hunter rules for big game; If Iam going to eat it I go for a H/L shot yeah they run a bit helps bleed them out if I run into a stomp, bite or claw you animal I CNS shoot it. danny

[rickt300]

I shot many mule deer and a few antelope in Wyoming circa early 80's and found generally that I rarely recovered a bullet and that past 175 yards it seemed expansion was pretty weak. I used reloads pushing 150 gr. Speer and Sierra bullets to around 2300 fps. My load was 32.5grs. of IMR 3031. I used a Marlin set up first with open sights then put a peep sight on it. This upped my easy hit range to around 250 yards but I found that I had to shoot the animal more times to get them to go down so I quit shooting so far at them. The carbine was actually pretty useful as when hunting the breaks the light rifle was easy to carry though when climbing around I added a sling to make it easier. Even in Wyoming most of my shots were under 150 yards and I especially liked using it in the "quakies" and timber edges. Yes "compact" and easy handling are important traits.

[oldgerboy]

Here in central Pennsylvania the deer I've harvested have been many ... 95% with 125 grain Sierra spritzer handloads. That load was in the chamber with 125 grain Federals in the magazine. The Sierra spritzers are intended for 308's and 30-06's and are tough enough that at 30-30 velocities and the ranges I shoot at ... 100 yards at most ... they are terrific for deer. They generally pass through the deer unless I mess up and try to go through both shoulders. The internal destruction is on par or better than traditional 150's or 170's. I have only ever lost one deer with them. When it was found the damage was such that we could not figure out why it ran almost a mile ... adrenelin and determination on the deer's part.