Is "weighing every 10th charge" really necessary...???

[AJMD429]

Is "weighing every 10th charge thrown" really necessary when reloading...?

I didn't want to pick on anyone [ ] but in another thread someone said...

Heck, I don't trust them between the beginning and end of a session... I'll stop and weigh powder charges several times during a session...

Here's my question(s):

1. Other than a mechanical part literally wiggling loose and turning itself through vibration or whatever (which I know could happen), has anyone ever had a significant change in powder grains thrown during a reloading session...?

Don't get me wrong, I do the same thing, but more to re-check myself ('Did I really set the darned thing right when I started the session') than the machine. I have NEVER had a setting get out-of-kilter during a session, so even just doing that 'double-check' at the end of the session doesn't seem too risky for having to pull bullets and re-reload them.

2. If a volumetric measurement like that DID start to throw different grain-weights during a session, due to the humidity or phase of the moon or whatever factors could make the same can of powder, in the same exact volume, weigh differently - what difference would it make...?

First off, I'd think the amount would be so minuscule that it should be nowhere near the amount needed to push a given load into the 'danger' zone (if the load is that 'touchy', I don't want to use it). Secondly, if the same volume is being loaded, does that extra 'moisture' (or lack of), or whatever else it is that makes 1.32 cc's of Powderco's #1234 powder weigh 12.3 grains today when it weighed 12.4 grains last month, really cause any change in pressure - AND if it does, can we even predict in what direction...? We could be 'compensating' in the wrong direction, in theory...!

So, leaving aside the "is something going to come loose and mess things up" factor, it boils down to:

• a) what makes powder weigh differently this month vs. last month, and
  b) what effect does that have on the pressure-per-grain thrown, and
  c) should we 'compensate' by adjusting the weight of the charge, or the volume...?

For instance, if it is 'humidity' that makes the powder weigh more per a given volume (although if powder expands a bunch when moist, conceivably it could have the opposite effect), so what...? Same amount of fuel (if expansion-when-wet is not a factor), and just a bit of water added. Would that raise pressures (water less elastic than air, or somehow catalyzing rapid burn), or would that lower pressures (specific heat of water greater than air, more molecules 'in the way' during combustion). It seems like if powder doesn't expand (or contract) significantly when humidity changes, we should just stick with our VOLUME setting (i.e. on our micrometer measure), and ignore the weight (other than to make sure it is 'close', so we didn't make some human-error mistake like setting it to 3.41 instead of 3.14). SURELY the manufacturers rely on 'volume' as their way of measuring, given the pace at which they have to produce ammunition. Their factories are no doubt controlled as far as temperature and humidity, but probably not ultra-dry, or they'd have worries about static electricity.

Anyway, other than being sure

• a) I didn't screw up and do the 3.41 instead of 3.14 thing, and
  b) some screw didn't come loose during my reloading session,

there seems to be little need to "weigh every tenth charge thrown" like so many folks do.

...other than soothe my obsessive-compulsive disorder...

[Catshooter]

Doc,

I installed the micrometer adjustable drums on all of my RCBS Uniflow measures. When I started using them I would check every ten or so. No variation. So then about every 25. No variation. So then when I changed primer tubes (100 rounds). No variation.

Even I could sense a pattern. Out of curiosity I dumped 100 charges into my scale pan and checked it. IIRC it was two or three tenths high.

The micrometer drums just don't move, at least mine don't/haven't.

I do still check them though. Just not as often.


Cat

[Old Ironsights]

Very few things are "necessary". Lots of things can be a really good idea though...

[Model 52B]

I think early on it's a great idea as you'll discover little eccentricities with your particular equipment such as the charge weight thrown by a measure getting slightly smaller as the hopper gets low (even with a baffle) or a charge being slightly heavier after a lengthy pause, etc.

It may also help you detect powder, measure and technique combinations that allow powder to bridge in the measure, leaving one charge short and the next charge over weight, or that just result in inconsistent charges with more than .1 gran variation from throw to throw.

If you're using a loading block and a single stage press, you should be visually inspecting for "different" charges, that may be the result of a double charge or bridging of a charge. On a progressive press, you should still be visually inspecting the powder level in each case, watching for cases that are visibly over or under charged.

----

With that in mind, I've used my measures for years and have sampled enough charges thrown with both my Dillon measures and my Redding BR-30 to have a very solid idea what powders and weights are potentially problematic and to also know how to operate them in a manner that throws consistent charges.

Consequently, at this point in my reloading career (36 years), I heavily front load the process being very careful to set the measure to deliver a specific weight, using a consistent technique. On a Dillon for example, that means after the press has been sitting after a pause, or if I've just filled the measure, that I will pull the pin off the powder die position and throw a half dozen charges into a case and back into the hopper before I even weigh one. I'll do the same thing after each adjustment, and once it looks right, I'll cycle several rounds through without seating a bullet and weigh the charges for consistency (then either backing off the sizing die, or putting the now empty but sized/primed cases back on the press at the powder charge station).

After that, I'll run the press until the powder level is down about half way ( which is still well above the baffle) then clear the shell plate before refilling the measure. I'll then throw a half dozen charges into a case and back into the measure before throwing one to check the weight. if it's still spot on, I'll load another 1/2 measure worth of rounds before refilling and checking again.

I'll do the same thing with my BR-30 when loading off a single stage press.

There are some cautions and exceptions:

1) If I am using a new powder, and in particular large flake or long extruded powders I am especially careful to check for consistent charge weights and may run a whole batch of charged and non bullet seated cases into a loading block to check for weight on each charge, until I am confident the measure is 100% consistent with that powder/charge combination.

2) There are some powders that I just won't use in my Dillon measures - for example long grain extruded powders like IMR 4831.

(Most measures do just fine with colloidal ball powders like H335 or BLC-2, but those same powders can be heat sensitive, so it's often a balancing act or a tradeoff in selecting a powder that's easy to measure versus one that will work for the intended purpose of the load.)

3) There are some powders where I will load the rounds on a single stage press, setting the measure to slightly undercharge each case, then use a powder trickler to bring the charge up to exact weight on a scale.

4) If I am loading something at near a maximum load, I ensure I'm still low enough that being .1 or .2 over won't cause an issue, or I weigh all the charges.

5) When accuracy and minimum standard deviation in velocity matter, I'll often weigh ever charge. Of course, I'll usually test a sample of thrown versus trickled charges by shooting a sample of 10 or 20 of each over a chronograph to see if hand weighing charges makes a difference in SD. I've found it really depends on the caliber, the powder, and the charge weight. That also lets you decide whether any gain in consistency is worth the extra effort.

----

In short, there is nothing magical about weighing every 10th round. What matters is knowing exactly how your measure operates with various powders and knowing exactly what differences in operation cause a difference in charge weight. That comes from paying close attention to detail, making an effort to develop consistency, getting lots of experience, and learning to know when a powder/charge/measure combination is just not suitable and recognizing the need to weigh each charge.

[Griff]

Getting consistent, accurate charges is a matter of technique more than mechanics. When I set up for a reloading session, I'm generally doing between 100 & 300 rounds of a particular pistol bullet and load... sometimes more. Rifles I tend to load in smaller batches. Before I ever drop a bullet into a charged case, I've checked at least 5 consecutive charges that I'm dropping the correct and accurate amount. This does two things, makes sure that my charge is correct, and that my machince manipulation technique is consistent. Slamming the ram at either end of the stroke will compact the powder in the hopper, even when you have one of those little inverted "v" baffles to keep the powder density constant. This leads to inconsistent charges. Once I've got those 5 exact charges repeated... I'll load several cartridges, then check one... just because... then load some more... check again... then I just might finish the entire tube of primers... then check the first one thru as I start up again. Go another 106 rounds (exactly how many pistol primers my tube will hold), and check once again. Every time I refill the powder hopper I check a few cartridges also... although I will run it down to about ¼ empty before I refill.

When I'm loading rifle cartridges... except for the 5.56, I load on a single stage and use a 50 round loading block. I check my charge weight at the end of each row of 10... just out of habit... unless I'm trying to get as exact as I can, i.e.: target loads, when I get really "bench rest" anal about it... then I throw charges about a ¼ grain light onto the balance scale pan, put it on the holder and then trickle in the necessary powder to bring it up to my charge weight! I seldom load more than 100 rounds at a time for the rifle on a single stage... I ain't sure if i's just that I don't have the patience to do more, or know that I seldom shoot more'n 10 or 15 rounds at a time...


It ain't for lack of brass, as each of those coffe cans or ice cream tub is pretty full of empty, clean brass! And there's probably more dirty brass in a sack, plus whatever's in one tumbler or the other! Rifle calibers in front of the RCBS and pistol calibers in front of the Dillons.

[wm]

Probably not but it makes me feel better.

Wm

[3leggedturtle]

If I aint using my Lee powder scoops I weigh every charge.

[Charles]

I make certain my powder measure is set correctly by throwing ten charges and dividing the weight by 10. That is the average of ten throws. I then lock the measure and load. I don't check it again, unless I have some reason to think the measure has come out of adjustment, which is never with the equipment I use.

[Malamute]

I've had my RCBS measure come loose several times when loading. I check charges now and then (and use a loading block) and have found charges changing from the lock nut coming loose. If it would make much difference? I dont know. I dump the charges in the block until I find the good zone and rethrow them though.

Most rifle loads with IMR powders I throw slightly light and trickle up on the scale. Probably not needed, to weigh each charge, but one never knows when a particular shot may be the one they want as close to any other as possible. If one has separate plinking ammo from carry ammo, it probably doesnt make much difference. There's a fair bit of difference in IMR charges, may not be enough to matter, but its just one variable I can control.

I use a brisk stroke with the measure, it seems to make more consistant loads for me. I've never ever had bridging in the measure.

[Chuck 100 yd]

What I do when I want `consistent` thrown charges.
1- use a powder the meters well
2- I use a Bench Rest quality measure w/appropriate size drum for the class of cartridge
I am loading. (small for pistol and small rifle,large for large rifle and magnums,etc.
3- I have a powder baffle in the hopper.
4- like Griff said,use consistent technique when operating the measure.

And #4 is place a plastic funnel in the measures hopper and always keep some powder in the funnel. That keeps a constant head pressure on the powder and will improve measure accuracy.

For the utmost in precision I throw the charge into the scales pan and dribble up to the exact
amount wanted.

[Old Savage]

Loaded all my rounds on a Dillon RL 550B, I weigh every rifle charge and just occasionally on the pistol but it seems to not stray from the set weight.

[El Chivo]

I weigh each one, but am supposed to check the scale with weights every 10th round, and don't do it.

Seems like weighing the last one would be enough - if things were straying, the last charge would be the worst.

My loads are almost always reduced enough so a couple full grains wouldn't be too high. Inspection in the loading block is how I check for big variations.

But, isn't it true that thrown charges vary by 10% or so anyway? As opposed to weighed charges?

With my scale, a tenth of a grain looks pretty big at the hash mark.

[Ji in Hawaii]

When it comes to reloading I am OCD and weigh EVERY charge.

[Bob Mccarthy]

While one can do no harm weighting each charge, it does take time.

In benchrest we throw charges blind between sets at the range. No one has a scale in use. I have adapted my techniques to all rifle reloading.

My Harrels is amazing consistent IF, my motion in dropping powder is consistent. I learned a light double tap at the top and bottom of the throw, always keeping the powder level between 1/2 and 3/4 full. If I sense I did anything different in speed or smoothness on throw I put it back in the bottle.

The key to a powder measure is finding a "null", a range of charges that gives good results.

Range testing at 1 grain increments is too large, but a good start to get a sense where the gun shoots with the desired velocity. Then zero in on .3 spacing a looking for a range of loads that all appear to shoot well enough. Throw in the middle of that range and your gun will be your best friend accuracy wise. Small variations in throw weight are fine if you do it this way (weigh!!).

I always use loading blocks and throw a complete row or two at one time. I then use a flashlight shining into the row of powder loaded cartridges making sure I didn't have one off before I proceed to bullet seating. It can happen from powder bridging in the measure. Pull those and redo on the next batch.

Note every gun is different, my load will not translate to your gun even if they are the same brand, caliber, etc... This is why loading manuals are guidelines, not recipes. And loading manual "accurate" loads are misleading.

Charge weights are not the holy grail of accuracy. Brass prep and firearm prep are.

Life is good...

Bob

[bgmkithaca]

It more depends on the kind of powder and volume to me.Larger volumes of flake powders seem to require a bit more attention, but even then I go about 1 in 20 checks on the scales.Other wise I check most frequently on max loads every round.I have not noticed a lot of variation in anything but flake types.

[Grizz]

If I aint using my Lee powder scoops I weigh every charge.

same here

[PriseDeFer]

You said it all yourself,
some screw didn't come loose during my reloading session
I didn't screw up and do the 3.41 instead of 3.14 thing
is something going to come loose and mess things up
Did I really set the darned thing right when I started the session

Recently had 4 Victor hoseclamps fail to function right out of the blister packs, They messed up, and what one fool can do, any can.

[Pisgah]

If you think powder will never "bridge" within your measure, making one load light and the next one heavy, then don't weigh or, for that matter, even glance in to the case to verify the powder level. Just be aware, you are betting that lightning will never strike.

Me? I look, and weigh frequently. Failure to do so is rather like running that stop sign at the intersection where "there's never anything coming".

[Bob Mccarthy]

I have always believed the selection of powder should include the concept it should nearly fill the case. Then it's easy to tell if you have an off charge ( double charge overflows - short charge is easily apparent upon inspection).

I hate throwing pistol powder because it often fills just a small portion of the case. Easy to miss a mistake or measure hangup.

+2 on visually inspecting after throwing.

My earlier post was only about weighting each charge.

Bob

[piller]

I use a lee powder dispenser and I weigh every charge for the first 15, and then every 5th charge. I have not had any big errors, and that is just the simple reason that I check it. I don't want any errors. I have only been reloading for about 15 years and am not interested in getting the high volume equipment yet. I probably could get by without measuring most loads as I tend to load right in the middle of the range for most things and have a little leeway in doing that.

[M. M. Wright]

I only check the Dillon powder measures when I set up. Don't think it's physically possible for them to change but I keep a close eye on the lock nut on my Herter's model perfect. It has loosened before and I had to dump 60 or 80 cases back in and start over. Checking the last one is a good way to avoid pulling a bunch of bullets. I throw powder charges for a tray full, 60 cases, then seat bullets after a visual inspection under a light. These are mostly rifle loads as most of the pistol is loaded on the Dillon. Well, except for .41 Long Colt but then I don't use very much of it.

[buckeyeshooter]

Depends on what I'm loading and what I'm using it for. If it is hunting ammo or something like 9mm where powder charge is critical for safety-- I weigh every one or every 10.
If it is 44-40 for CAS where I'm using black powder, no--- I load 35 grains of black and it is impossible to get over 40 grains in the case. The handguns are Ruger Vaqueros in 44 Mag/44-40 --- no way I can overcharge a case with black and hurt them or me. I weigh a couple to be positive the powder measure is still correct and go to town.

[OldWin]

When I load for rifles or my old guns I weigh every charge and only charge one case at a time. I'm not in that big of a hurry and enjoy loading.
When I'm loading pistol ammo with my Dillon, I only check a few as it has proven extremely consistent. That being said, I use moderate loads and don't use Bullseye.

[madman4570]

I weigh every single one!

If you are only doing it at every 10-----------------------------YES,YES,YES(least that 10th one is good)
Should have had you help me with my roof metal fence??????

[Ji in Hawaii]

The only loads I don't weigh are when I'm reloading shotgun cartridges, just crank them out on my LEE Load-All. Good enough.

[AJMD429]

A "compressed" load that is within published guidelines always seems to be about as safe (from overcharging, at least) as one can get. Still gotta make sure you have the right powder (and bullet).

....and right GUN, come to think about it... I couldn't figure out why my 45-70 Marlin wouldn't feed right, but I "worked the lever aggressively" like they say to do, and got it to feed, then fired it. Then noticed the case had ruptured...!





Don't try to fireform the "458/444 Wildcat" in a 45-70, I guess...

[buckeyeshooter]

yep, you can still screw up, but it makes it harder.

[6pt-sika]

As a general rule I weigh EVERY charge for a rifle cartridge !

As for psitols where I use H-110 not so much .

[rimrock]

75-85% humidity makes powder clump together bad, so I have to clean my charging die ever so often when it's that high. I like the Lee dippers many times just because one less thing I have to adjust, but I also use mt Lee powder thrower pretty often. I'll weigh 5 throws to make sure I'm where I need to be then load. I stay with mid range powder charges--just the way I do things, not fussing at you about the way you do things.