From Mrs. Mutt: ? ammo safety

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Mutt
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From Mrs. Mutt: ? ammo safety

Post by Mutt »

Hi,
If I need to discharge my weapon in my home to defend myself, I'm responsible for where the bullet lands. I don't want my bullet going threw the wall of my home and unintentionally harming somebody My question. :?: What style of ammo is less likely for this to happen? Would Hollowpoints because they expand more, Lead Flat Nose, Round Nose, Full Metal Jacket
or Wadcutters?
I carry a NAA 22LR, BERETTA 25 Mod. 950 BS and Mutt's old 38 S&W SPL. What can I say :oops: , I don't want to take time to reload if I'm in a gun fight. :)
Thanks again for your help, Mrs. Mutt
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Re: From Mrs. Mutt: ? ammo safety

Post by octagon »

Hollow points will penetrate less than FMJ. Check out frangible ammo.
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Re: From Mrs. Mutt: ? ammo safety

Post by Tycer »

It does not really matter. All of the listed ammo will penetrate more than one drywall wall.
Try not to put beds in common flight paths and don't miss.
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Re: From Mrs. Mutt: ? ammo safety

Post by AJMD429 »

Both previous answers pretty well covered it; especially the frangible ammo for a first shot, but I'd keep a more penetrating round or two down in the magazine/cylinder in case the predator had a thick coat.
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Re: From Mrs. Mutt: ? ammo safety

Post by MrMurphy »

Any round in any caliber can and will penetrate. Key is knowing clear areas to fire. Another handy option is taking cover behind the bed, desk etc in a room and kneeling/crouching. You make yourself a smaller target and aiming somewhat upward as they come through the door.


You're still aiming for their center mass but any rounds which punch through will end up in the ceiling, not the next room at people height.


And if at all possible........get something in a bigger caliber. .22's and .25s can kill (seen it) but they're not reliable (ignition, .22s can misfire easily) or great stoppers. A .38 Special/9mm Para is the recommended power level. That said, even a .22 has definitely done the job, so if it's all you can get, use it.
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Re: From Mrs. Mutt: ? ammo safety

Post by Pete44ru »

.


I take the position that I'm not an on-duty LEO, with those needs (like penetrating glass, etc), and so keep Glaser Safety Slugs (one of several frangible types) ammo in my .38 Special.

FWIW, even birdshot from a shotgun WILL penetrate at least two (2) plaster/lath or sheetrock/wood stud partitions inside a home @ those typically close ranges (feet, not yards) - BT, DT, NTS. ( A.D. - :oops: )

I've had 2 confronations @ my homes (different residences), since 1966 - and both occurred @ less than 10'.
IMHO, intimidation (at those ranges) works well, since a close look at the business end of a 12ga, acompanied by a loud snarl from the holder, can be a great deterrant.




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Re: From Mrs. Mutt: ? ammo safety

Post by ndnchf »

A double barrel shotgun with a light load of birdshot is my preference. Will do much harm to an intruder at 10 feet, not to mention the visual impact of the sight of those two big barrels, and will penetrate multiple walls far less than a bullet.
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Re: From Mrs. Mutt: ? ammo safety

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Rossi 92 .357 lever , and a cz pcr 9mm
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Re: From Mrs. Mutt: ? ammo safety

Post by Griff »

MrMurphy wrote:Any round in any caliber can and will penetrate. Key is knowing clear areas to fire. Another handy option is taking cover behind the bed, desk etc in a room and kneeling/crouching. You make yourself a smaller target and aiming somewhat upward as they come through the door.
You're still aiming for their center mass but any rounds which punch through will end up in the ceiling, not the next room at people height.
And if at all possible........get something in a bigger caliber. .22's and .25s can kill (seen it) but they're not reliable (ignition, .22s can misfire easily) or great stoppers. A .38 Special/9mm Para is the recommended power level. That said, even a .22 has definitely done the job, so if it's all you can get, use it.
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Re: From Mrs. Mutt: ? ammo safety

Post by MrMurphy »

Since you live in New England, be aware Glasers don't perform well through heavy clothing ie jackets.

Birdshot can be fatal, having seen it, but the majority of the time it just makes a messy surface wound and greatly annoys the recipient if they're wearing more than a t-shirt or it's not a under-3 yard or so shot (where the shot column hasn't opened up and it's basically a slug).

Stick with buckshot and aim carefully. Even buckshot can (and has) failed with multiple rounds.
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Re: From Mrs. Mutt: ? ammo safety

Post by 7.62 Precision »

Beware of most frangibles. Things like Glaser Safety Slugs and stuff like that are not a good idea for self-defense. This is something I studied extensively some years back when I had to make a recommendation to a certain organization about what ammo their security team should use. Prior to that, I was just as accepting of the frangible ammo manufacturers' marketing as anyone else.

1. They are popular due to marketing, promoting unreasonable fears in potential customers, myths about terminal ballistics, and gun-counter lore.

2. They generally do not prevent penetration of walls. In fact, many popular "self-defense" frangibles tend to crimp shut when they hit drywall and become a high-velocity FMJ.

3. They have a proven record of being unreliable for stopping threats. They tend to make massive, ugly superficial wounds, but do not penetrate well enough to kill, or if they do, they do not kill quickly. Even if balls/fragments do hit vital parts of the body, they make only miniature wounds and do not promote fast bleeding.

4. Over-penetration of your target is a much exaggerated concern. If you are using a good HP bullet that consistently penetrates to 12"-16", you are good. It is not likely that such a bullet, when expanded correctly, will exit the body. If it does, it will not have the velocity to penetrate a wall, and even if it hits a bystander, it is unlikely to cause any serious injury.

5. Under-penetration should be a serious concern, and designer frangible bullets lead to under penetration.

6. When bystanders are injured by in shootings (much more common in LE shootings than in self-defense shootings), it is invariably because the shooter missed the intended target, not because a target was over-penetrated (talking about pistol cartridges, not rifle).

So your concern should be to use a cartridge that penetrated enough (12" minimum - 16" is good) and training enough to hit the target. Training should be realistic self-defense training, not just target time on a range, to prepare you to hit a target under stress and to stay alive.

Look at some of the projectiles most commonly used by LE. LE agencies have a lot more time, money, and motivation to put into testing and choosing ammo. Up here, where people wear coats, Speer Gold Dot and Remington Golden Sabers are popular with law enfacement.

In your case, I would be especially worried about under-penetration, and would recommend only FMJ in .22 or .25 caliber pistols. With the .38, a good HP that penetrates well. The .38 SPC should be your first choice for self-defense, when considering your available options.

If you were willing to purchase something for home defense, a short, light, AR-15 shooting Black Hills Mk262 Mod 1 (77gr. Open Tip Match) would be your best option - kills quickly, especially at short range, very low recoil, easier to shoot accurately than a pistol, and tends to begin fragmenting in the first layer of drywall.
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Re: From Mrs. Mutt: ? ammo safety

Post by Ysabel Kid »

AJMD429 wrote:Both previous answers pretty well covered it; especially the frangible ammo for a first shot, but I'd keep a more penetrating round or two down in the magazine/cylinder in case the predator had a thick coat.
Solid advice Doc (excuse the pun).

The same of it is that with a little handloading, you can really optimize the defensive performance while minimizing the threat of over penetration. I like a multi-ball load I worked up for a .38 Special using the Speer Shot Capsule a number of years ago, but would be very hesitant to ever use it. I can see some dipstick leftist/statist DA going after me tooth and nail for doing so. Fortunately, in my county, the DA is not that kind of person.
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Re: From Mrs. Mutt: ? ammo safety

Post by Mutt »

Is frangible ammo and hollowpoints the same thing? I have never heard the phrase
"frangible ammo" before. And yes, the 38 is my main weapon for protection. A dbl by the door and a lever gun my bed. Mrs. Mutt
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Re: From Mrs. Mutt: ? ammo safety

Post by 7.62 Precision »

Again, don't worry about over-penetration - worry about under-penetration and hitting your target.

If you under-penetrate, that is bad. If you miss the target, no specialized ammo will protect bystanders. No .22 or .25 pistol ammo will give you any danger of over-penetration, and no good self-defense bullet in the .38 will have a problem with over-penetration either.

Go with a good, proven HP bullet in the .38 and don't worry about anything other than missing. Stay away from expensive designer frangible bullets.
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Re: From Mrs. Mutt: ? ammo safety

Post by 7.62 Precision »

Mutt wrote:Is frangible ammo and hollowpoints the same thing? I have never heard the phrase
"frangible ammo" before. And yes, the 38 is my main weapon for protection. A dbl by the door and a lever gun my bed. Mrs. Mutt
Frangibles shatter into a lot of tiny, light, pieces. There are several legitimate reasons for them, such as safety shooting steel targets indoors, guys who guard nukes and don't want to penetrate somewhat hardened walls, etc.

The ones designed for self defense have serious problems, though. They are very expensive, they consistently way under-penetrate, and the fragments are generally too small to create serious incapacitating damage, and they are based on an erroneous concept of terminal ballistics in which the designers believe (or claim to believe) that "energy dump" or "hydraulic shock" is the primary killing factor, negating the need for penetration resulting in incapacitation of organs, disruption of the CNS, or massive bleeding. The concept also assumes that there is a great danger to bystanders from overpenetration by traditional hollow point pistol bullets. There is not.

They are also very high velocity, and some types lose metal on the way down the bore, sometimes resulting in malfunctions or damage to the firearm. I had a friend in a unit that was using frangible ammo exclusively in M16 rifles and M9 pistols. They were constantly repairing both the rifles and the Beretta pistols, as parts were cracking and the gas systems plugged up with metal.
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Re: From Mrs. Mutt: Thanks 7.62 Precision

Post by Mutt »

Thanks for the description of frangible ammo. I had never heard it called that.
Think I will just stay with my flat nose, semi-jacked 38 spl's. Mutt and I were watching a gun program and such a thing happened to some people living in a mobile homes park. A man shot an intruder and the bullet traveled threw the intruder, threw their wall and into the neighboring trailor striking an elderly man. He did servive. As they say "It could happen to you".
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Re: From Mrs. Mutt: ? ammo safety

Post by MrMurphy »

The .38 tends to need a little help in that department. A flatnose is better than round nose lead, but a lot of excellent hollowpoints exist for it without costing a fortune.


Speer makes the Gold Dot "short barrel" made for rapid expansion from small .38's like Chief's Specials. It's a 135 grain load, originally made for the NYPD I believe and has worked well in shootings.

If you've got a double-barrel, any decent buckshot load will work and pack considerably more power than the .38.

If you have to go to the levergun and it's a rifle-caliber one......well......hope nobody lives over in that direction..... But the guy will stop! My grandmother nearly blew a attempted robber off her back porch with a Winchester 94 back in the 1950s, and it gets people's attention.


You'd be amazed at how luck works out though at times, about 10 years ago near Fort Hood a break-in attempt was foiled by breaking into the wrong apartment (attempted gang murder). They kicked the door in, fired 2 shots and realized they screwed up when the guy living there returned fire with an AK-47. 20 rounds of 7.62X39mm (equivalent to a .30-30) in the middle of an apartment complex and miraculously, nobody got hit despite him shooting up about six apartments.
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Re: From Mrs. Mutt: ? ammo safety

Post by Tycer »

MrMurphy wrote: Speer makes the Gold Dot "short barrel" made for rapid expansion from small .38's like Chief's Specials. It's a 135 grain load, originally made for the NYPD I believe and has worked well in shootings.
This.

I have duplicated this load and tested it on many different pieces of meat and bone. I carry the factory stuff in my short 38s. Even when they don't expand the penetration is excellent after passing through ribs or arm sized bones.

http://www.speer-ammo.com/products/short_brl.aspx

You can click on the link on the page below the sentence: "38 SPECIAL+P 135 GRAIN GOLD DOT SHORT BARREL HOLLOW POINT EXCELS THROUGH FBI PROTOCOL TESTS." for a series of recovered bullet pictures. My recovered bullets looked similar except for when bullets grazed something hard and the nose folded on one side.

From my experience with folks with little trigger time, the recoil of a 38 loaded to SAAMI max specifications in a small gun is intimidating for them. They are not fun to shoot, but that's not their purpose, is it? Other than having someone test your particular revolver for point of impact sight adjustment ( Nancy's laser needed a tweak, the factory sights on 4 J-frames all hit center mass at as far as 25 yds) as compared to light practice loads. I recommend you only shoot the light practice loads if you are at all recoil sensitive. Carry the defense loads and know that the point of impact will be where you need it to be and that your adrenaline dump will make recoil a non-issue should you ever need to defend yourself.
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Re: From Mrs. Mutt: ? ammo safety

Post by hfcable »

ndnchf wrote:A double barrel shotgun with a light load of birdshot is my preference. Will do much harm to an intruder at 10 feet, not to mention the visual impact of the sight of those two big barrels, and will penetrate multiple walls far less than a bullet.
and like VP Biden says, you can go out on your deck, exposing your position, and fire both barrels into the air. that way you are now unarmed, exposed and with no where to retreat......i would never have thought of that!

you are right that the sight of those two barrels pointing at you at close range is VERY intimidating.....had that happen once. :)
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Re: From Mrs. Mutt: ? ammo safety

Post by madman4570 »

I am no expert and only take this as such!

If you were my wife-------I would say take a look around you(where you are)think about some different hypotheticals?

1)what if I awoke to noise(potential break in )how will I handle that ???
2)what if I am up and someone just starts a break in ???
3)what if someone is in the house in each area if it is possible(how will I handle it)?

I would tell her----after her thinking (ahead of time what possibilities she might be able to do etc.)
at the time when it comes-------someone is in the home bent on doing you harm--------the what if bullet travels where(would rank way back in the field)My first and foremost hope would be---------all her action/training would be on stopping that threat. First rule hit on target and stop threat/threats.Your problem about the thing penetrating a trailer wall and going into another trailer wall.(at least anything I deem as acceptable for home protection you will have that problem other than birdshot/maybe buckshot??)

That .22 you carry as backup or actually that .38 revolver (for inside home protection)I think is light.
My wife ???---choice-----its a Glock 27 with Hornady Critical Duty ammo.

Seems anymore that it will be at least two perps(and them probably having weapons)------when you at home(having choices)----think there are better choices? Carrying for CCW(that .38 possibly)
I know you said you have other stuff lying around-----but at the slightest noise(at a moment's notice within a quick grab)a high capacity powerful low kicking semi at the ready (with laser)and couple loaded extra mags------mighty tough to beat. The Glock 27 is a joy to shoot.

Again----Only my thinking on a choice. Actually think the perfect weapon would be the one that serves both CCW/Home Defense all in one gun(if able)though surely having other options don't hurt.

JMHO----though?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdqIhmu9Fuk
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Re: From Mrs. Mutt: Thanks 7.62 Precision

Post by 7.62 Precision »

Mutt wrote: Mutt and I were watching a gun program and such a thing happened to some people living in a mobile homes park. A man shot an intruder and the bullet traveled threw the intruder, threw their wall and into the neighboring trailor striking an elderly man. He did servive. As they say "It could happen to you".
Maybe so, but I would like to know what the man was shooting and where he hit the intruder. While mobile homes are tin cans, it is rare that a normal self-defense pistol bullet will pass through a man and still have enough velocity to penetrate a wall. Even if that happened, they tend to angle down after all of that.

I don't know the story, but the first suspicion that comes to my mind is that he fired two rounds, one that hit the intruder and one that went through the walls and hit the other guy. A pistol round going through a person, a wall, the space between buildings, another wall, and hitting someone hard enough to do damage is very unlikely. The chance of that happening is so little that I would not worry about it. The chance of hitting someone if you miss is much greater, and I would worry about that.

The second question I would ask is what caliber was it? What bullet? If the guy had his .44 or .357 loaded with bear or hunting loads handy when the intruder broke in, then there would be a much greater chance of overpenetrating both bodies and walls.
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Re: From Mrs. Mutt: ? ammo safety

Post by MrMurphy »

Agreed.

I've seen a .45 ACP Hydra-shok that hit a guy's upper arm, traveled sort of 'along' it before exiting, hit a building exterior and broke up.

Most JHPs will perform similarly even through a layer or three of drywall.
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Re: From Mrs. Mutt: ? ammo safety

Post by Paladin »

MrMurphy wrote:
If you have to go to the levergun and it's a rifle-caliber one......well......hope nobody lives over in that direction..... But the guy will stop! My grandmother nearly blew a attempted robber off her back porch with a Winchester 94 back in the 1950s, and it gets people's attention.

You'd be amazed at how luck works out though at times,
The first shooting I investigated in 1978 was a model 94 with 150 gr Remington round nose from 11 feet. One round through the sternum perfect mushroom stopped just inside his T-shirt in the back. To many variables to make a valid prediction on every shooting. But most of the information given by the others is valid. Remember rule #1 for a gunfight " have a gun" .
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Re: From Mrs. Mutt: ? ammo safety

Post by MrMurphy »

Never seen a .30-30 used on a person, though I've seen a 7.62X39mm FMJ load do similarly to what you report.
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Re: From Mrs. Mutt: ? ammo safety

Post by AJMD429 »

7.62 Precision wrote:The ones designed for self defense have serious problems, though. They are very expensive, they consistently way under-penetrate, and the fragments are generally too small to create serious incapacitating damage, and they are based on an erroneous concept of terminal ballistics in which the designers believe (or claim to believe) that "energy dump" or "hydraulic shock" is the primary killing factor, negating the need for penetration resulting in incapacitation of organs, disruption of the CNS, or massive bleeding. The concept also assumes that there is a great danger to bystanders from overpenetration by traditional hollow point pistol bullets. There is not.
Good information and thanks for posting. Makes me not feel so bad I've always been too 'cheap' to spend all that money on frangibles...
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Re: From Mrs. Mutt: ? ammo safety

Post by tman »

Glock 27 200 grn. outdoorsman load by Buffaloe Bore. It will stop man or bear.It will PENETRATE, but that is a trade off in defensive shooting. nothing is perfect, pick your line of fire and pray.
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Re: From Mrs. Mutt: ? ammo safety

Post by 44shooter »

Most defensive handgun load will not pass through a large phone book, much less two exterior walls.

I do know of a 45 auto 230 grain Hydrashock round that struck a hardwood floor at an extreme angle, bounced up and hit a modern baseboard pretty close to headon, went through the wall into the back of a kitchen cabinet and merely pushed the door slightly open and landed on the kitchen floor. The cabinet door had no damage and sprung back closed. The neighbors were safe! The bullet was slightly flattened longitudinally with no significant nose expansion.

In short I agree that overpenetration is a concern if you miss with most anything, within a dwelling or adjoining apartments. But with solid hits with HD loads, the bullet will lose momentum rapidly. I do not use prefragmented bullets and I do not use ammo designed for quail to save me from bad men.
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Re: From Mrs. Mutt: ? ammo safety

Post by 7.62 Precision »

44shooter wrote: . . . and I do not use ammo designed for quail to save me from bad men.
Also good advice.
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