Refinish a pre 64 stock. Original finish question?-DONE!

[K1500]

I always get good advice here. I have a flatband 94 and am contemplating stripping the finish on the stock, steaming a couple of dents out, and refinishing in a rubbed oil finish. Before I do this I am curious about what the original finish is supposed to look like. If this gun has the original finish, which I highly doubt, I will leave it alone. If it has been refinished already, I will strip it and go to work.

The existing finish appears to be a varnish or urethane of some sort. It looks to me like a thinned or wiping polyurethane, but I am not sure. It is glossy. I have attached an iPhone picture. It looks like a refinish due to the gloss and the fact that it appears there are scratches and surface imperfections under the finish. I believe it has already been refinished, but I thought I would get a second (and third and fourth) opinion. What do you guys say?

[92&94]

Hard to tell from the pics, could go either way.

Sanding scratches under the finish don't always mean anything, I've seen that on factory guns, especially utilitarian ones. I would be a little surprised to see them on a 94 carbine, but I wouldn't take that to mean refinished. Looking again at those marks on the forearm, it looks like there could be an over-coat after those dings.

I'd take a look at where the wood meets metal, especially where the buttstock meets the receiver. There is often too much taken off there on a refinished levergun.

If it were me, I doubt I'd worry much about it, 94 carbines aren't all that collectable, even pre-64 is desirable rather than collectable. If you do a good job of it, the gun would sell for about the same as un-refinished, but sell faster because it looks good.

[Borregos]

Go for it
You can definitely improve the looks.

[Pop Watts]

Well,
It is hard to be exactly right without really handling your 1894.
BUT my call is that it has been refinished before.
From your pic of the front wood there seems to be reflection coming from a pretty deep ding / gouge in the timber and that would lead me to believe that it has been refinished over the blemish.
Also there are two deep dings in the rear timber. If they have finish over them I would say that someone has already gone to work on your baby before you got her.
Now, I have a 1920's carbine that has huge runs in the varnish that some previous owner has applied, leaving no doubt that mine does not have the original finish - so that is an easy decision for me - when I get time to strip it all off.
Looks to me like you have a great little gun there, so if you want to clean her up then go right ahead and do a nice oil finish to the timber.
Second BUT - do not sand the timber and do not reblue the gun and I feel you will not detract from it's value or appeal.
Happy decision making.
Pop.

[K1500]

Yes, the deep dings with finish of them is one thing that leads me to believe it has been refinished. I would expect the finish to be scraped or damaged in the dings. In addition, it just appears too 'good' for the general condition of the stock and the rest of the metal.

My intentions were to remove the stocks and the butt plate, strip the finish, and try to steam out some of the dents. I have never steamed a dent, but I believe it requires light sanding when done. I was then going to very lightly hand sand with a block, preserving all edges to prevent rounding. Finally, I was going to wet sand the second coat of the finish a bit with something like 400 grit wet/dry sandpaper. This would leave a matte 'in the wood' finish.

Is there a reason to avoid sanding in general when refinishing? I do a lot of woodworking, so I am familiar with wood and finishes, but I have never refinished a stock before. I know it is bad to round edges, change lines, or remove enough material to cause the wood to metal fit to change.

About a reblue, I plan on leaving the metal the same as I like the way it looks. As always, all advice and opinion is appreciated.

[Pete44ru]

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It's definitely been refinished - the original lacquer finish didn't have that orange skin texture (most noticeable on the FE, just ahead of the bbl band step).





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[K1500]

Well gents, I believe I am going to give it a try tomorrow after doing some yard chores. When I get it done I will post pics. The gun is a nice shooter and hunting grade gun, but it is not an original finish so I will not devalue it by refinishing the stock. I have had great success on oak, walnut, and cherry furniture I have made with Watco Danish Oil (an oil/varnish mix that is heavy on the oil). it ends up looking alotlike BLO without as much work and with a bit more protection. I know the standard is Tru Oil, but it builds a bit too much for what I have in mind. The wood is a bit rough, but maybe I can fix some of that. This was a pawnshop rescue that needed a new front sight and the stock work. The metal has that wonderful patina that many folks like that develops from years of use. Wish me luck, and feel free to throw any last minute advice into this thread. Thanks!

[mod71alaska]

What oil finishes are you considering? This is a new product with Winchester stain mixed in with the oil: http://www.oldwestsnakeoil.com/ I have used the Original Old West Snake Oil and it is excellent! I just ordered the pre-64 tinted oil but have yet to use it.

Good luck and please post pics when you're done.

[Pop Watts]

Rather than sand the wood, I have used paint stripper to remove the old finish, rubbing with nothing harsher than steel wool.
Steam out dents by placing a damp cloth over the stock and ironing it with your wife's clothes iron. (she has since given me my own iron) Repeat this process until you have got as much of the dings as you can out of the timber. Then damp down the timber, let it dry and rub it with steel wool. Repeat this process until the timber feels smooth. Then go for your desired oil finish.
My rule is not to rub a stock with anything more abrasive than steel wool.
Please post some pics of your handywork.
Pop.

[geobru]

Rather than sand the wood, I have used paint stripper to remove the old finish, rubbing with nothing harsher than steel wool.
Steam out dents by placing a damp cloth over the stock and ironing it with your wife's clothes iron. (she has since given me my own iron) Repeat this process until you have got as much of the dings as you can out of the timber. Then damp down the timber, let it dry and rub it with steel wool. Repeat this process until the timber feels smooth. Then go for your desired oil finish.
My rule is not to rub a stock with anything more abrasive than steel wool.
Please post some pics of your handywork.
Pop.

Pop has it right. Use a chemical stripper to remove the finish, steam steam steam those dents, and use 0000 steel wool to take off the raised grain. You don't need to sand unless there is a serious gouge where the wood is damaged. I recently posted a 9422 stock I refinished that demonstrates the idea.

http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... =1&t=50343

One of the biggest signs that a stock has been refinished occurs at the metal-wood interface. A pristine stock will be proud to the metal, ie higher than the metal. Not by much, but usually enough to easily feel with your fingers. If you sand it at all, the metal will be higher than the wood, and is a dead giveaway that it has been redone.

If you want to match the original color, you will have to either buy a premixed product or mix some wood stain to get the reddish color that typifies the older Winchesters. I haven't worried about that too much to this point because I like to see what the natural wood has in it and how it reacts to the finish I'm applying.

I use True Oil on my guns and take off the gloss with the Stock Sheen and Conditioner, but I have used Watco Danish Oil Finish on kitchen cabinets and furniture for years and think it is a great product. Post your results so we can see the outcome!

[K1500]

All good advice. I would never sand the old finish off, that sounds like a disaster. My plan was to strip chemically following label directions (scrape with a plastic scraper and rub with med steel wool). Steam out the dents as best I can. Lucky for me, the wife bought a new iron a few years ago so I snagged the old one for wood shop use. After that, I was going to sand very lightly taking care not to round lines or remove excess material. I was going to start at P220. I was aware that the wood should be proud at the wood/metal interface.

I am not sure how you can get away from sanding lightly after using a stripper, steaming dents, and raising the grain with water? The plan was to remove next to nothing material wise. In any event, I witt take the advice offered here and try steel wool first and see where that leads.

I do not want a glossy finish. If the underlying wood looks good, I will refinish with the above mentioned Watco Danish Oil. Well known in woodworking circles, it is less well known for guns. I have seen and heard of some done, but you don't hear it mentioned as much as Tru Oil and some others. Watco is an oil and varnish blend that has more out than varnish. It gives a finish similar to boiled linseed oil with fewer coats and faster drying time. It will leave a smooth matte finish. If you wanted a shiny finish, you can apply a coat of varnish over it. I plan on applying a coat of wax when the finish dries. I will post pics.

[K1500]

Well, the stock is off, finish gone, and dents steamed. I believe I will wait until tomorrow to finish the stock.

Some of the dents came out, but dents of un unknown age in a 70 year old stock are probably tough to get out. The damage to the forend is actually material that has been removed, so no amount of steaming will help. Some of the deeper dents remain as they are too stubborn to lift. The fibers of the wood are probably severed.

I am not going to stain or dye this stock. I have always liked a natural look in the wood, so Watco it is. I will wet sand with P400 on the second coat to fill the grain and achieve a nice and smooth finish. I will post pics as I progress. Thanks for all the help.

[Chuck 100 yd]

I use Herters French Red stain from Brownells to closely copy the original Winchester color.
Every piece of wood will stain a little differently but the pre 64 mod.94`s had a slight red tint to them,similar to this one.
Re finish......

factory finish...

[K1500]

That looks really good. I have always had a 'thing' for a matte natural walnut finish, so that's what I'm going for. I have had fun fixing this rifle up. When I bought it it had a damaged front sight. I stuck it in the safe for a few years, contemplated chopping it down to trapper length, didn't do it, and stuck it back in the safe. I recently replaced the front sight and it now shoots to point of aim. I believe the stock work will finish it off as I like the natural patina too much to reblue it.

[92&94]

I've had good luck filling flaws in walnut.
I use some of this stuff:

transtint.jpg

To tint some of this stuff to match the wood:

PC-11.jpg

[K1500]

I got a chance to look at the rifle a bit closer with the stock off. I am going to clean it well before the stock goes back on, but my 99% guess it was refinished just went to 100%. There is finish on the barrel and magazine tube from the forearm.

This is the second Winchester I have owned that the refinisher failed to take the forend off for a proper refinish. The first one the guy did a good job on the refinish, but got finish on the barrel. On this one, they must have taken it all off the barrel where it was visible, but it ran under the forend. It takes a grand total of around 5 minutes to remove the forend, buttstock, and buttplate. Why, why, why do guys not do this when refinishing a stock? It makes the refinish job exponentially easier as well.

On another note, I am messing around with some clear epoxy on some scrap walnut to see how it fills some scrapes and dents. All the wood filler I have didn't look right. I have used clear epoxy to fill knots before, but I was going for a certain look. We shall see how it looks on my scrap before I commit to it.

One last question. Will it hurt the barrel and barrel band if I rub it with acetone to remove any old finish on it? I can't imagine it will, but I don't want to remove any bluing.

[92&94]

Acetone won't hurt the bluing, though stuff like oven cleaner will.

[K1500]

O.K. I got it done. 3 coats of Watco, with a wet sand using P400 on the second coat, plus one coat of wax. It is not as glossy as the pics indicate, as there was strong overhead light. I'm happy, and thanks to all who gave advice.

[Pete44ru]

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For future reference, when a near-invisible void-filler is needed, I drill a small hole in the buttstock (under the BP) to obtain some stock-colored sawdust to mix in with the epoxy.


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[FatJackDurham]

Very nice. The character of the wood comes through nicely.

I am amazed you finished it so well so quickly. I am on my 7th coat of tung oil on my RB stocks and its still not got all the grain filled it. The parts that are, though look nice.

What is Watco? I'll have to look that up.

Did you use any rubbing compound after the third coat or go straight to wax? What kind of wax?

On my test piece that I am working on along side the actually pieces, I used some carnuba wax. It seems to add a nice smoothness without too much sheen.

[K1500]

That's a good idea. I played around with filling the pit in the stock with epoxy. In my sample pieces it looked good, but it would have required too much sanding to get it level and off of the surrounding wood. I'm okay with some character on this rifle, since the forend and the rest of the gun show their honest age.

The finish is significantly less glossy than the old one. Although the harsh lighting shows a sheen, the wood has more of a soft glow. I know it isn't like the factory finish, but it was what I was after. I can topcoat with TruOil or another film finish if I want more film.

[K1500]

Oops, double post.

[K1500]

Watco is an oil varnish blend (I used natural, which has no die or pigment in it). I believe it is boiled linseed oil, mineral spirits, and varnish. I have used it on furniture in the past, but this is my first stock. After the stock was done to bare wood I lightly sanded any spots where the grain was raised. I gave it one coat of the Watco, keeping it wet for about an hour. Then you wipe all of it off. I used a blue paper shop towel. I really kind of buff it out because any extra left on the stock will look shiny. The stock really soaks up the first coat.

I let it dry 48 hours, although I think 24 would have been enough. On the second coat, I wet sanded with P400 wet/dry paper. In hindsight, I think P320 would have been fine enough and would have helped build a slurry to fill the grain a bit better. After about 24 minutes of keeping it wet, I did the blue towel wipe off and let it dry 48 hours. It soaked up a fair amount of the second coat.

The last coat was a wipe on, keep wet for 30-45 minutes, and buff off with a blue towel. It didn't soak up much of the third coat, indicating the finish was done. After drying for 48 hours, I used Minwax paste finishing wax. Wipe a thin coat on, let dry 15 minutes, and buff off with a piece of denim. Watco and Minwax are available at most big hardware stores.

I wasn't sure I wanted the wax, as the stock looked good to me without it. I do not wax most furniture I build. I figured the wax would be easy enough to get off with mineral spirits if I wanted. The only downside to the wax I see is it can get in the grain if it is not 100% filled and leave a very small wax looking mark.

It left a very smooth finish with a low gloss. This is what I wanted. If you want a glossy film, Watco isn't for you. The wood is super smooth to the touch. Although Watco doesn't protect against wear and water as well as a film finish, it is super easy to repair, and it hides damage well. I just got a table base that was finished in Watco. Large dogs had scratched it up quite a bit, and the finish had lost its luster. 45 minutes later and the scratches were gone and the finish looked great again. If the table was finished in a varnish, I would have had to strip and refinish the whole thing.

[FatJackDurham]

That's a good idea. I played around with filling the pit in the stock with epoxy. In my sample pieces it looked good, but it would have required too much sanding to get it level and off of the surrounding wood. I'm okay with some character on this rifle, since the forend and the rest of the gun show their honest age.

The finish is significantly less glossy than the old one. Although the harsh lighting shows a sheen, the wood has more of a soft glow. I know it isn't like the factory finish, but it was what I was after. I can topcoat with TruOil or another film finish if I want more film.

I know what you mean. Two stocks I finished with just a couple of coats of Tung have the nice, aged wooden look. However, this one I am working on now, I find that the speckle grains keep too much shine and it is distracting. I want to fill them in smooth with the finish so the whole would will have a nice satin luster. That is the plan anyway.