Differences between civilian & "law enforcement" items

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Hagler
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Differences between civilian & "law enforcement" items

Post by Hagler »

Ladies & gentlemen,

For decades, I have heard of the rumored differences between the two classes of available cars, guns, clothing, what have you: civilian versus police. I understand that certain people demand certain durabillity & functionality requirements from their equipment, but the following news makes me wonder about a manufacturer's view of what is safe for the civilian consumer, and why "law enforcement" gets a better shotgun. On the Gun Broker "Ask the Experts" forum, one answer came in the form of this "PDF" file, from Remington Arms:

http://www.educationalsurplus.com/sms/d ... id=3346963

Important differences between Remington 870 Police and 870 Express shotguns

The 870 Express has been an important part of Remington’s offering to the sporting market. It was designed to meet a price point in the commercial market while still providing classic 870
functionality. All of Remington’s 870’s have interchangeable parts, even if they have cosmetic differences. It is also important to note that many manufacturers use the 870 Express platform for their Police / Combat models. Without exception, every manufacturer who utilizes our 870 platform serves to upgrade their system to a more efficient, street worthy platform.

While the 870 Express is still an 870, the best pump shotgun on the market, there are some very important cosmetic and functional differences between it and the 870 Police. To our customers in Law Enforcement, Military, Corrections, and Security, whose lives depend upon the unfailing
performance of Remington shotguns, the Police modifications are of paramount importance. Synopses of the variances are provided below.

• 870 Police shotguns go thru a special 23 station check list – ranging from visual inspection, functional testing, test firing, and final inspection.

• All Police shotguns are assembled in a “special build area” at the plant in Ilion, NY. This section is secured and serves only to build LE and Military shotguns, with the same factory personnel working at that assignment each shift.

• All parts that enter the “special build area” are visually inspected by hand to ensure top quality and functionality.

• Due to heavy recoil in buck and slug loads, all 870 Police guns have a longer
magazine spring which ensures positive feed and function.

• A heavier sear spring is used to generate a reliable, positive trigger pull between 5 and 8 lbs.

• A heavier carrier dog spring is used to ensure when the carrier elevates the shell, it will be held there until the bolt can push it into the chamber. This ensures positive feeding when using heavier payload rounds.

• Police shotguns do not have an ISS (Integrated Safety System) which is a locking mechanism on the safety of commercial shotguns. This type of locking mechanism can cause delay to an officer who needs the weapon but does not have the appropriate key. LE shotguns have the standard, proven, cross bolt safety.

• The fore-end on the Express model is longer and not compatible with many police shotgun vehicle racks.

• The Police shotguns utilize the heavy duty SPEEDFEED Stocks and Fore-ends.

• The Express model will not allow for the addition of an extension tube without
physical modification to the tube and barrel, which can nullify the warranty.

• The Express model has a BEAD BLAST BLUE finish while the Police models utilize either High Luster bluing or Parkerization.

• The Express model utilizes a synthetic trigger housing while the Police models use a compressed metal housing.

• The Police shotgun barrel is locked down with a “ball detent” system in conjunction with the magazine cap vs. a lesser grade “synthetic magazine spring retainer” lock down as used on the Express system.

• The receivers used in Police guns are “vibra honed” to smooth out rough finishes and remove burrs before parkerization or bluing.

• Police shotguns use machined ejectors and extractors, as opposed to powdered metal cast which are utilized on the Express models.
Shawn
"That's right, Billy, I'm good with it. I hit what I shoot at, and I'm fast!"-Lucas McCain, c1882.
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olyinaz
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Re: Differences between civilian & "law enforcement" items

Post by olyinaz »

In other words, the police guns are made the way 870s used to be made back in the day, while the current civilian models have all of the cheap plastic and powdered metal junk on them as noted.

Have you looked at Winchester Mod 70 Super Grade side lever these days? Still very nice!! Remington used to be top shelf but they've been trying to out-Ruger Ruger and out-Savage Savage. Sadly, they haven't managed even that and have sunk below those brands (I'll take a Ruger or Savage over a Remlin these days HANDS DOWN) - all they've managed to do is become another Mossberg and now they've done it to Marlin too.

Heck, I'd take a Wards or Sears gun over a Remlin these days...and that says a lot because when you were in the boat or blind or out in the field back in the day, you always felt for the guy who was toting a Wards or Sears gun instead of a "real" Remington or Winchester!
Last edited by olyinaz on Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Oly

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MrMurphy
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Re: Differences between civilian & "law enforcement" items

Post by MrMurphy »

He's correct. Police grade 870s are made how all 870s were made 20 years ago.

Express guns still work fine and realistically for your average birdslayer, will function perfectly fine without issue. Lot of Express guns used for home defense as well without problems.

Personally, for an antipersonnel gun, I'll pay the extra for the Police model, because you don't get a re-try.

Same with ARs....not all of them are the same, and price and quality control DO matter.
Chuck 100 yd
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Re: Differences between civilian & "law enforcement" items

Post by Chuck 100 yd »

Taken care of, the Express will do just great. If you are rough on equipment then buy an older 870 Wingmaster.
:wink: :wink: :wink:
MrMurphy
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Re: Differences between civilian & "law enforcement" items

Post by MrMurphy »

Agreed, I've had 2 Expresses and they worked fine, even run hard shooting in matches.
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AJMD429
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Re: Differences between civilian & "law enforcement" items

Post by AJMD429 »

In some circumstances it could be better to have two less expensive shotguns vs. one twice as expensive - if a part does break you have an entire spare gun and/or source of more spare parts, can arm a second family member if needed, and can locate the second one in a bedroom while the first is in the gun safe downstairs, or whatever.

There is a failure-rate one wouldn't want to go above, of course, but is one failure per 100,000 rounds really better than one failure per 20,000 rounds for the average homeowner...? If the odds of that first failure happening in the first 2,000 of those 20,000 rounds are even lower (I'll bet after the first 100 rounds or so break the truly faulty parts, the graph of the next 100,000's of shots would show a nearly-flat curve until pretty far out there in the many tens of thousands of rounds, then the curve would shoot up.

So for someone planning to put 100,000 rounds through a weapon, 50% of which will be practice and 50% life-and-death situations, the situation is clearly different than someone planning to put 5,000 rounds through a weapon, 99% of which would be practice, and 1% life-and-death situations, it might not be money well-spent to buy the 'extra grade' firearm, if instead the money could be spent on more practice, extra floodlights, a spare gun, or whatever.

(Of course, having said all that, many times I opt for the 'extra grade' quality just as a matter of principle, or an extra margin in case I abuse the item; that's why I got a heavy-duty towing package on my pickup, even though I rarely tow anything at all - it just comforts me to think of my transmission staying cooler.)
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Hagler
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Re: Differences between civilian & "law enforcement" items

Post by Hagler »

Gents,

I understand that the civilian-grade, Express version is adequate for almost everyone's needs, but, after reading some of what Remington says to the "upper crust", I feel like we are getting inferior & inadequate Model 870s. For example, these items:
• A heavier sear spring is used to generate a reliable, positive trigger pull between 5 and 8 lbs.

• A heavier carrier dog spring is used to ensure when the carrier elevates the shell, it will be held there until the bolt can push it into the chamber. This ensures positive feeding when using heavier payload rounds.

• Police shotguns do not have an ISS (Integrated Safety System) which is a locking mechanism on the safety of commercial shotguns. This type of locking mechanism can cause delay to an officer who needs the weapon but does not have the appropriate key. LE shotguns have the standard, proven, cross bolt safety.
...make me think that my life is worth less to Remington than a police officer's (or, soldier's) life is worth. I understand, though, that the Integrated Safety System has been eliminated, due to unintended problems with it. However, Remington realized that this safety system was a hindreance to quick use of the 870. Also:
• Police shotguns use machined ejectors and extractors, as opposed to powdered metal cast which are utilized on the Express models.
...adds to my impression of Remongton selling civilians an inferior shotgun, to inferior civilians.

Shawn
"That's right, Billy, I'm good with it. I hit what I shoot at, and I'm fast!"-Lucas McCain, c1882.
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AJMD429
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Re: Differences between civilian & "law enforcement" items

Post by AJMD429 »

Hagler wrote:...make me think that my life is worth less to Remington than a police officer's (or, soldier's) life is worth.
That is a popular notion all across society these days. Ironic, in that the police/soldier is supposed to so highly-value the civilian's life that he or she is ready to risk theirs to protect the civilian... Evidently some folks didn't get the memo...
Doctors for Sensible Gun Laws
"first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.


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Streetstar
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Re: Differences between civilian & "law enforcement" items

Post by Streetstar »

Hagler wrote:
...make me think that my life is worth less to Remington than a police officer's (or, soldier's) life is worth. I understand, though, that the Integrated Safety System has been eliminated, due to unintended problems with it. However, Remington realized that this safety system was a hindreance to quick use of the 870. Also:
• Police shotguns use machined ejectors and extractors, as opposed to powdered metal cast which are utilized on the Express models.
...adds to my impression of Remongton selling civilians an inferior shotgun, to inferior civilians.

Shawn

That's what I read into it --------- Law Enforcement gets tenderloin, civilians get mystery meat --------- not bitter about LE, but about Remington -- when I dispose of my last Remington firearm, I likely will not be adding another --- F- those clowns , Winchester made plenty of 1300 Defenders to grab from GB and other places, -- if not that, Mossberg has made no pretenses about this that I can tell (or maybe they have and I missed it -- ouch)
----- Doug
mack
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Re: Differences between civilian & "law enforcement" items

Post by mack »

My take on this is that Remington is knowingly selling a potentially defective product to the public.
MrMurphy
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Re: Differences between civilian & "law enforcement" items

Post by MrMurphy »

More of regular shooters will only pay XXX amount for a shotgun... the Express meets the price point they are willing to pay without sacrificing more than some external stuff (beadblast instead of blue).


Mossberg has the 500, the 590, and the 590A1 (which is the military model) for the same reason. Ironically, the Army uses more of the 500s, mostly because they're cheap and entirely suited for the role they needed them for (door breaching). The 590A1 is their dedicated military combat shotgun.
Model 52B
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Re: Differences between civilian & "law enforcement" items

Post by Model 52B »

AJMD429 wrote:
Hagler wrote:...make me think that my life is worth less to Remington than a police officer's (or, soldier's) life is worth.
That is a popular notion all across society these days. Ironic, in that the police/soldier is supposed to so highly-value the civilian's life that he or she is ready to risk theirs to protect the civilian... Evidently some folks didn't get the memo...
I worked with two kinds of officers - those who would respond immediately to save a civilian life, and those who'll wait for back up. In most cases an immediate responding officer is indeed taking more risk - and violating department policy.

The most extreme example is probably public safety diving, where time is of the essence but protocol normally requires a minimum of a diver, a safety diver and a third person for surface support. So in a situation where, for example, a car ended up submerged in a lake or river with the driver inside, an officer responding within a couple minutes with rapid response dive gear in the trunk, could potentially affect a rescue in time to save someone. However that will violate the safety protocols that are in place. Alternatively, if the officer waits for the minimum number of dive and support staff to respond to the call, the odds are he's just the first one on the scene of the body recovery as it will be far too late to save anyone. The officers I worked with were split on whether they'd attempt an immediate rescue or wait.

The officers who indicated they'd attempt the rescue tended to be older, familiar with their skills and limitations and able to do a pretty good risk assessment and cost versus benefit analysis - and they took the old school values of "to serve and protect" seriously.

Oddly enough the officers who had more of a paramilitary air to them tended to have an "anything to get me home safe" attitude. If the driver of the car was a police officer, they'd be more likely to attempt the rescue of a brother officer, but for a civilian - probably not.

Crime scenes are a little different, but the same basic values come into play. The reality is that the police have no duty to protect a civilian, and may or may not choose to risk their life to do so.

My advice is the be well prepared to protect and save your self during a crime as far more often than not, the police will arrive after the fact and will be able to do nothing other than express their condolences, take a report, collect evidence and hopefully apprehend the perpetrator sometime in the future.

-----

I agree that Remington's description suggests that they don't make shotguns like they used to - which in my opinion makes something like a used 870 Wingmaster a much better value.

However, it's also an artifact of Remington making things that will sell at a given price point the market demands. Most people will choose to save a few bucks at the expense of quality and most people who buy a shot gun won't shoot it much anyway so the qualitative differences don't matter to them.

Also Remington is not just competing with other new shotgun choices on the shelf, but also with every other Remington 870 they ever made - and as noted above, those older used guns are well made and are a very good value on the used market. So, if a shooter is given the choice between a used old school very well made 870 in very good to excellent condition and a new Remington that was made to the same quality standard but costs 2-3 times as much, the odds are the shooter will go with the used 870.
MrMurphy
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Re: Differences between civilian & "law enforcement" items

Post by MrMurphy »

52B is correct (as usual, it seems)....


I'm currently in a police academy, and nearly half of our class are veterans. Counting only one third of them you've got 10 combat tours. My one deployment was non-combat but as a group we tend to be pretty switched on. And also willing to take a few more risks, simply because we've all been in bad situations and are familiar with what we will and won't do.

Depending on the situation I may go running in (active shooter) or watch-and-see since running and getting ambushed is not survival inducing, and being dead doesn't help anyone.


Remington had to make a hard choice with the Express line, and they seem to be doing fine. They still make the Wingmasters and Police models, and for those willing to pay for it, the option is there. You can also drop those parts into an express model. Wilson Combat and Vang Comp stay in business selling upgraded parts for a reason.

I generally don't have an issue with Express guns, but for police work, i'd definitely prefer the 870PM.

Biggest difference between civilians and military/police....... you may get into a fight. Cops and military either go looking for one, or know the odds are far, far higher they'll end up in one.

My job in the military in a typical situation where things went wrong, we knew the first team through the door had a very high likelihood of 75% casualties before they got ten steps from the door.
That was the job, you accepted it and moved on. Got briefed on a QRF once for an event that thankfully did not happen while deployed where we knew going in, 75-80% of us might not make it off the plane if we came in under fire.

Changes your priorities a bit on how much you're willing to spend on equipment that means you survive. To this day, I have no issues spending $$ on gear if it improves my chances, the difference between cheap and 'cheap but works because it's rugged' is a big one.
mohavesam
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Re: Differences between civilian & "law enforcement" items

Post by mohavesam »

Much ado about nothing IMO.

buy what you want, buy what you know. If you don't want beef ground up three states away, you pay your butcher to grind the stuff you want. Every manufacturer or anything these days makes a base model and a premium model. Is that such an epiphany to anyone?

Stop trying to find a boogeyman in the American gun industry. Spend money if you want or think you need something better than the base model.

My advice is free, anytime. My experience will cost more.
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