444 Marlin as a 'survival' gun...

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444 Marlin as a 'survival' gun...

Post by AJMD429 »

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Re: 444 Marlin as a 'survival' gun...

Post by buckeyeshooter »

rather have a 30-06 or 30-30 but if it what you have, it has to do.
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Re: 444 Marlin as a 'survival' gun...

Post by Dan 444 »

Interesting article. Thanks for posting.

Dan
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Re: 444 Marlin as a 'survival' gun...

Post by Malamute »

Interesting article, though many of the things brought up can apply to about any cartridge if need be, as to a variety of loads, using salvaged components, etc. I see little need to use black powder, but it could be done in many rounds, some perhaps better than others, but still, not unique to the 444.

I'm not sure if in a potential "survival" situation that I'd care for the weight of a loader, lead pot etc, rather than just more loaded rounds, leaning towards more small game loads after a level of full power loads were on hand. A 22 pistol and a box or two of shells would also make a lot of meat. The situation where living off the land in an emergency is pretty remote and unusual. I didn't say impossible, just nowhere near as likely as many seem to feel judging from the posts on various forums. If you fly over or otherwise travel (I wouldnt include car/truck) though extremely remote country, one may want to consider the ability to actually live off the country a while, otherwise, there are few places it would be required or likely to happen unless by choice, which is a different matter.

As much as anything, I think the article should get people thinking about the possibilties of thinking a bit out of the box regarding ammo of every sort, rather than how special the 444 is. Good round, just not as unique as made out to be in the article.
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Isnt it amazing how many people post without reading the thread?
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Re: 444 Marlin as a 'survival' gun...

Post by 6pt-sika »

A good many options in that article and to be honest a good many options I don't care to pursue ! But to each his own .
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Re: 444 Marlin as a 'survival' gun...

Post by jeepnik »

Oh heck, no one's started the 45-70 is better than the .444 yet. So, okay, I started it. :mrgreen:
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Re: 444 Marlin as a 'survival' gun...

Post by AJMD429 »

Malamute wrote:Interesting article, though many of the things brought up can apply to about any cartridge if need be, as to a variety of loads, using salvaged components, etc. .
Agreed. I think I'd stick with a 'pistol caliber' levergun and take advantage of the higher magazine capacity (thus fewer rounds to carry separately if it is a grab-and-go or airplane crash or whatever situation). The 44 Mag and 45 Colt offer pretty stout top-end power for most North American game or two-legged predators, and usually hold one round in the magazine for every two inches of barrel. Even the 'lowly' 357 Mag has decent potency, and offers great economy in terms of using scant amounts of components for modest loads. All three offer compatibility with various handguns, which is another plus to me.

Now if I were going to fly over bear-country, I'd definitely consider a 444 Marlin, though I would probably prefer the stainless and synthetic Ruger 375 Alaskan bolt action, to be honest. Either would do. I suppose if one had to do it, one could even get by with a Marlin Guide Gun or Winchester 1886 in that nearly-obsolete 45-70 Whatchamacallit. :o :wink:
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Re: 444 Marlin as a 'survival' gun...

Post by Blaine »

Why not?
Tons of bullets and powder that would work in a pinch....
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Re: 444 Marlin as a 'survival' gun...

Post by 6pt-sika »

AJMD429 wrote:Now if I were going to fly over bear-country, I'd definitely consider a 444 Marlin, though I would probably prefer the stainless and synthetic Ruger 375 Alaskan bolt action, to be honest. Either would do. I suppose if one had to do it, one could even get by with a Marlin Guide Gun or Winchester 1886 in that nearly-obsolete 45-70 Whatchamacallit. :o :wink:
If I were in Grizz country regularly via boat , plane , truck or foot I think I;d opt for a 21" barreled bolt action 375 H&H MAG or 416 Rem Mag .
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Re: 444 Marlin as a 'survival' gun...

Post by jeepnik »

6pt-sika wrote:
AJMD429 wrote:Now if I were going to fly over bear-country, I'd definitely consider a 444 Marlin, though I would probably prefer the stainless and synthetic Ruger 375 Alaskan bolt action, to be honest. Either would do. I suppose if one had to do it, one could even get by with a Marlin Guide Gun or Winchester 1886 in that nearly-obsolete 45-70 Whatchamacallit. :o :wink:
If I were in Grizz country regularly via boat , plane , truck or foot I think I;d opt for a 21" barreled bolt action 375 H&H MAG or 416 Rem Mag .
Hey Wild West Guns makes a purpose built rifle for this. Their Co Pilot. Oh wait, it's in that ancient 45-70. Hmm wonder why, unless of course it simply works.
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Re: 444 Marlin as a 'survival' gun...

Post by Eye-Bite! »

"in that nearly-obsolete 45-70 Whatchamacallit. :o :wink:[/quote]

Can of Worms just opened up Doc. :roll:
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Re: 444 Marlin as a 'survival' gun...

Post by 6pt-sika »

jeepnik wrote:
6pt-sika wrote:
AJMD429 wrote:Now if I were going to fly over bear-country, I'd definitely consider a 444 Marlin, though I would probably prefer the stainless and synthetic Ruger 375 Alaskan bolt action, to be honest. Either would do. I suppose if one had to do it, one could even get by with a Marlin Guide Gun or Winchester 1886 in that nearly-obsolete 45-70 Whatchamacallit. :o :wink:
If I were in Grizz country regularly via boat , plane , truck or foot I think I;d opt for a 21" barreled bolt action 375 H&H MAG or 416 Rem Mag .
Hey Wild West Guns makes a purpose built rifle for this. Their Co Pilot. Oh wait, it's in that ancient 45-70. Hmm wonder why, unless of course it simply works.
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Re: 444 Marlin as a 'survival' gun...

Post by Rusty »

i thought Skeeter settled this a long time ago? The perfect survival gun is a 5" M27.
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Re: 444 Marlin as a 'survival' gun...

Post by jeepnik »

Well as long as we've drifted into other stuff. I present (again) the "Perfect Jeep (survival) Gun".

Image

Hey I know it's only .410 caliber, but at least it is a .42 passing itself off as .444 caliber.
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Re: 444 Marlin as a 'survival' gun...

Post by MrMurphy »

Funny how the authors of those kind of survival articles tend to be older guys who assume you handload and have the materials.



In a real survival situation a .22 rifle with about 500 rounds and a nice 200' or so length of cord for snares would likely tend to keep you in food much longer.

Squirrels, rabbits or anything similar sized don't need to be shot, and they keep up a good amount of meat for minimal work if you're in the right areas. A .22 can kill a deer, if you're close and hit the right spot.
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Re: 444 Marlin as a 'survival' gun...

Post by AJMD429 »

MrMurphy wrote:In a real survival situation a .22 rifle with about 500 rounds and a nice 200' or so length of cord for snares would likely tend to keep you in food much longer.

Squirrels, rabbits or anything similar sized don't need to be shot, and they keep up a good amount of meat for minimal work if you're in the right areas. A .22 can kill a deer, if you're close and hit the right spot.
Lots of good sense there. I would likely make my 'survival' gun a 44 Mag for reasons stated above, but the 'next' gun in the battery would be a 22 LR with a couple bricks; likely it would get the lion's share of the hunting duty and even has legitimate strategic and defensive roles.
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Re: 444 Marlin as a 'survival' gun...

Post by samb »

Great read Doc thanks for sharing.
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Re: 444 Marlin as a 'survival' gun...

Post by El Chivo »

can it shoot those .410 shotgun shells like a 45?
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Re: 444 Marlin as a 'survival' gun...

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M4 8)
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Re: 444 Marlin as a 'survival' gun...

Post by 3leggedturtle »

Checked that book out about 10times from the library. Was all hot for a 444, then what do I do, bought a 45/70 then a Marlin in 375. If I had known about the 320gr and bullet for the 444 might have changed my mind. Would, coulda or shoulda. :D
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Re: 444 Marlin as a 'survival' gun...

Post by jeepnik »

MrMurphy wrote:Funny how the authors of those kind of survival articles tend to be older guys who assume you handload and have the materials.



In a real survival situation a .22 rifle with about 500 rounds and a nice 200' or so length of cord for snares would likely tend to keep you in food much longer.

Squirrels, rabbits or anything similar sized don't need to be shot, and they keep up a good amount of meat for minimal work if you're in the right areas. A .22 can kill a deer, if you're close and hit the right spot.
I carried an AR-7 in my Jeep for almost three decades. Then one day when it was needed, I found that the .22 lr seemed might small. It did deter the two legged critters, at least long enough for my nephew to get his issued .40 Glock. Still had push come to shove I would have used it as effectively as possible.

That was when I decided something with a bigger hole in the barrel would be nice. And so the "Perfect Jeep Gun" came about.
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Re: 444 Marlin as a 'survival' gun...

Post by MrMurphy »

.22 for a food gun is one thing.

Seen some people killed by .22s but 9mm handgun or bigger, preferably an M-4 in 5.56 is my two legged critter solution.

I'm talking backcountry survival where staying fed is the primary problem.
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Re: 444 Marlin as a 'survival' gun...

Post by piller »

444 just sounds like a stuck record. :lol:
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Re: 444 Marlin as a 'survival' gun...

Post by rjohns94 »

I am a huge fan of the WWG Co Pilot. I think it is pretty much the perfect config in a big bore. I had one 444 but I wound up discovering a passion for the 45-70. Either are suitable. I would probably choose the 45-70 in a Co-Pilot as a back woods rifle but I would still want a 22 and/or a shotgun. Then again, I would be perfectly fine living off the land with my 16 bore flintlock and a stash of powder, shot, and lead, possibles bag and lots land to roam in.
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Re: 444 Marlin as a 'survival' gun...

Post by 6pt-sika »

3leggedturtle wrote:Checked that book out about 10times from the library. Was all hot for a 444, then what do I do, bought a 45/70 then a Marlin in 375. If I had known about the 320gr and bullet for the 444 might have changed my mind. Would, coulda or shoulda. :D
Up until about a year ago I had decided the 375 WIN I had would make an excellent LIGHT lever action , my 444's could be excellent medium guns and the 45-70 could be the heavy hitter with the 465 and above grain bullets . At some point in there I added another Marlin 336-44 in 44 MAG .

Then about 8 months ago I decided I didn't need the 375 WIN or 44 MAG anylonger so down the road they went . And shortly there after the 45-70 went as well .

Nothing wrong with any of them I just happen (at the moment) to have a preference for the 444 !

But I am not shooting shot or squib loads out of any of mine !

But with all that being said , I still am of the opinion that I want a bolt action in 375 H&H or one of the 416's for use in ALASKA if I am a regular inhabitant of that state in brown bear country !
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Re: 444 Marlin as a 'survival' gun...

Post by Canuck Bob »

Well gentlemen and women, the 444 is the finest bush rifle ever produced to balance punch delivered against punch received. The discussion between it and the 45-70 and similar rifles strikes me as one of the unsolvable riddles like is the 308 as good as the 30-06. I am highly biased but that is my opinion from 40 years of use. Your choice would most like be quite different and that is how it should be.

In the land of no handguns allowed my choice for survival would be dependant on where I planned to survive. A 22 everywhere plus a shotgun in the city, Win 94 32 Special in the countryside, 444 Marlin in the bush. I own them so that is my choice. There is also a decent store of components on hand. One thing is certain the best way to disarm the general population that has guns is to dry up the ammo supply.

I grew up around trappers and indian hunters for awhile and they invariably carried a 22 for daily work in the bush and a centerfire when actually hunting larger game. They never ventured far without an ax so a large rifle was just in the way. Hollywood's version of of survival would require a full armoury and ammo bunker for the regular firefights encountered.
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Re: 444 Marlin as a 'survival' gun...

Post by L_Kilkenny »

Interesting article but............

Then and even more so now irrelevant for 99.9% of us. I used to spend time reading and talking all things concerning "long term wilderness survival". Shelters, making cordage, edible plants, impromtu traps, fire starting, survival guns, etc, etc. After a few years I realized it was nothing more than an outdoorman's version of the Dungeons and Dragons game the fantasy boys played back in the 80's. In regards to the article, I/we don't "need" to know many if any of the things it talks of. Not if we have a brain in our head before hand that is.

The true key to survival of any kind is being prepared, having the right mindset and having the basics covered. Not toying around and trying to make things do what they aren't good at just cause we want to play a what-if game in our mind.

Stock up, keep your options varied, know how to use the right tools for the job. Learning how to make .444 "shotgun" shells may be a great time killer for a snowy winter night at home but not something any of us needs to know.
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Re: 444 Marlin as a 'survival' gun...

Post by AJMD429 »

Yah - most 'survival' strategies these days involve things like knowing key officials and bureaucrats and 'hillbilly networking' and so on. None of us are likely to have to live off the land very long.
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Re: 444 Marlin as a 'survival' gun...

Post by 2X22 »

I have the original Digest that article was first published in (I think) and one of the reasons both me and my brother brought 444's. I've never been sorry. The 444 is everything that article says.

Are there guns/cartridges are better? Probably, depending on the location.

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Re: 444 Marlin as a 'survival' gun...

Post by Buck Elliott »

MrMurphy wrote:Funny how the authors of those kind of survival articles tend to be older guys who assume you handload and have the materials.
Maybe because a lot of those "older guys" have the knowledge, expeience and wisdom that many of the younger generation seem to lack.. Those of us at or above a "certain age"
have learned over the course of years, what works best for us, and what is not worth the time..

I've noticed that it's mostly the "younger guys" who are asking the questions, then often discarding the answers that don't fit their preconceived paradigm... The resultant conversations become what Mas Ayoob called "mental masturbation..." acheiving little or nothing, in the end, other than wasted exercize and exertion...

That said, the .444 levergun accomplishes its "survival" role as well as just about any cartridge/gun combination... There is clearly a case to be made for several of the "pistol caliber" set-ups, and the venerable .45-70 shines in a realm almost of its own..

We "older" boys believe in handloadi.ng, and we hope that you young bucks might learn to experience the benefits of the practice.. It opens up whole new worlds of possibilities, regardless of cartridge..
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Re: 444 Marlin as a 'survival' gun...

Post by MrMurphy »

I'm a believer in handloading, I currently have neither the time, space or money to do so. Having been shooting for going on 30 of my 35 years, ammo isn't cheap.


My survival setup in a theoretical situation as above i.e "Alaska or Montana" would likely be a .22 rifle paired with a .30-06 or similar caliber bolt action with irons and a scope. The two will handle just about anything I'd realistically need.


My current location and general situation means a 9mm pistol and an AR will handle almost all of my issues including hunting (deer here are small) and most of my survival problems would be two-legged and come in groups.
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Re: 444 Marlin as a 'survival' gun...

Post by Buck Elliott »

My philosophies and comments are profusely colored by my location and my experience.. Out here, our deer are big, our elk are bigger, and our big cats, bears and wolves tend to run to the larger sizes as well.. People are relatively few, in the back country, precisely because of its inhospitable nature.. Should we have a bad times episode, most humans who flee to the hills will take a while to drift very far from the supposed comfort of the trailheads..

Any emergency survival instance will probably occur because of carelessness or negligence, and barring debilitating injury, one is never more that 3 days hike from civilizarion of some degree.. An area just south of the Yellowstone Park boundary, close to the Yellowstone River, is known to be farthest from a road (of some kind) in the Lower 48, at a distance of less than 40 miles, as the crow flies... the country is liberally laced with trails and paths, but tends to be steep, high, and unforgiving.. Maybe those are the geographical and environmental qualities that appeal to the Walter Mitty in so many folks..(?)
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Re: 444 Marlin as a 'survival' gun...

Post by jeepnik »

2X22 wrote:I have the original Digest that article was first published in (I think) and one of the reasons both me and my brother brought 444's. I've never been sorry. The 444 is everything that article says.

Are there guns/cartridges are better? Probably, depending on the location.

2x22
Which year, I likely have it as well and would like to reread it.
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Re: 444 Marlin as a 'survival' gun...

Post by 6pt-sika »

jeepnik wrote:
2X22 wrote:I have the original Digest that article was first published in (I think) and one of the reasons both me and my brother brought 444's. I've never been sorry. The 444 is everything that article says.

Are there guns/cartridges are better? Probably, depending on the location.

2x22
Which year, I likely have it as well and would like to reread it.

Try the 1977 Gun Digest !

There's an article in there Don Zutz wrote on the 444 that I find a bit more intresting then the one linked here .
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Re: 444 Marlin as a 'survival' gun...

Post by tman »

I LOVE my 444 94 Bigbore, but nothing beats an M4 as a survival rifle. 15 to 20 hits on an elephant is just as good as 1 hit from a 458 Lott.
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Re: 444 Marlin as a 'survival' gun...

Post by Buck Elliott »

tman wrote:I LOVE my 444 94 Bigbore, but nothing beats an M4 as a survival rifle. 15 to 20 hits on an elephant is just as good as 1 hit from a 458 Lott.
There just may be something to that... Since the advent of the 5.56mm cartridge, i find Wyoming and Montana to be conspicuously devoid of wild/feral elephants.. I know a couple guys who own and shoot .458 Lott rifles, and the dearth of local, target pachyderms is weighing heavily upon them... So much so, in fact, that they have resorted to booking trips to Africa, in the past...
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Re: 444 Marlin as a 'survival' gun...

Post by hayabusa »

I really like your thinking/answer Buck.

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Re: 444 Marlin as a 'survival' gun...

Post by tman »

Buck Elliott wrote:
tman wrote:I LOVE my 444 94 Bigbore, but nothing beats an M4 as a survival rifle. 15 to 20 hits on an elephant is just as good as 1 hit from a 458 Lott.
There just may be something to that... Since the advent of the 5.56mm cartridge, i find Wyoming and Montana to be conspicuously devoid of wild/feral elephants.. I know a couple guys who own and shoot .458 Lott rifles, and the dearth of local, target pachyderms is weighing heavily upon them... So much so, in fact, that they have resorted to booking trips to Africa, in the past...
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Re: 444 Marlin as a 'survival' gun...

Post by Blaine »

Buck Elliott wrote:
tman wrote:I LOVE my 444 94 Bigbore, but nothing beats an M4 as a survival rifle. 15 to 20 hits on an elephant is just as good as 1 hit from a 458 Lott.
There just may be something to that... Since the advent of the 5.56mm cartridge, i find Wyoming and Montana to be conspicuously devoid of wild/feral elephants.. I know a couple guys who own and shoot .458 Lott rifles, and the dearth of local, target pachyderms is weighing heavily upon them... So much so, in fact, that they have resorted to booking trips to Africa, in the past...
With my Crossman pump-up BB gun, I've kept the polar bear population depressed in the lower 48 for nearly 50 years.....
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Re: 444 Marlin as a 'survival' gun...

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Cogratulations Blaine... Your diligence in the matter is commendable.. Carry On !!
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Buck

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Re: 444 Marlin as a 'survival' gun...

Post by Nath »

tman wrote:I LOVE my 444 94 Bigbore, but nothing beats an M4 as a survival rifle. 15 to 20 hits on an elephant is just as good as 1 hit from a 458 Lott.
The thing is,,,,,getting those light 15-20 shots in to the zone!

In the general flavour of the topic I would want to have some bullet weight over speed.

I'm thinking.....Brown Bess!

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Re: 444 Marlin as a 'survival' gun...

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Yep..

STOP means NOW... DEAD might take a while...
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Buck

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Re: 444 Marlin as a 'survival' gun...

Post by Old Ironsights »

Buck Elliott wrote:Yep..

STOP means NOW... DEAD might take a while...
Dick Casull said pretty much the same thing... with no collar bones the bear goes nowhere - you can dispatch it later.
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Re: 444 Marlin as a 'survival' gun...

Post by piller »

I grew up around some of the folks who had to make do with whatever was at hand. I am still amazed at what they could accomplish with just a few tools when modern folks like me need at least 10 times as much stuff just to do less. As far as the 444 goes, I have never shot one, and my comments about it are just the comments from the peanut gallery. However, a few well made tools and guns, reloading supplies, and some know-how and willingness to learn do seem that they would carry you a long way.
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Re: 444 Marlin as a 'survival' gun...

Post by AJMD429 »

Old Ironsights wrote:
Buck Elliott wrote:Yep..

STOP means NOW... DEAD might take a while...
Dick Casull said pretty much the same thing... with no collar bones the bear goes nowhere - you can dispatch it later.
Same thing for self-defense, too. People rightly say "a 380 can kill a bad-guy with proper shot placement" and that is true, but what is more important is can it STOP a bad-guy. It may require a bit more precise "shot placement" than just to provide lethality, whereas I suspect many higher-power cartridges would have a somewhat larger zone of impacts which would produce a 'STOP'.

Of course the other factor is that a 'normal' individual would not want to be shot with ANY firearm, so might cease and desist with a 380 pointed at him (I would!!!), but innocents aren't usually in danger from 'normal' individuals, and those bent on rape or murder or mayhem are not only not normal, but are likely dazed and confused on drugs or booze.

For things closer than 100 yards that are very important to STOP, I like cartridges beginning with a '4' - and I suppose one with '444' fills that niche quite well.
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Re: 444 Marlin as a 'survival' gun...

Post by Buck Elliott »

Agreed, Doctor.. With a minor exception, perhaps..

The .444 cartridge and its possibilities have long been subjects of interest and intrigue, to my mind.. The cartridge - as presented to us by Marlin - strikes me as neither fish nor fowl.. Restricted by rifling twist and COAL to bullets of less than 300 grains weight, and in the case of heavier bullets, by powder capacity and pressure, the .444 failed to achieve stellar performance statistics in the field.. The overly-clunky, unwieldy Marlin 444 platform did nothing to endear the combo to anyone, other than hide-bound Marlin fanatics.. Eventual adaptation to the rattle-trap Winchester Model of 1894 came too late, and the boys at the Big Red W treated it like a red-headed stepchild..

By the time the "engineers" at Marlin came to, and tightened up the twist for the .444, any second chance for a great first impression was long gone, and the later Marlin offerings became more cllunky and unwieldy than before, as production costs were trimmed.

In my humble opinion, the .444 just misses having a 'sweet spot', where everything comes together in near perfection.. On tbe other hand, the old .45 Gov't cartridge shows us a broad 'sweet Range' at various load levels, with various bullet weights, from 250 up to 500 grains and a bit beyond.. And, in slicker, smoother-handling rifles; especially from Winchester and vrious other single-shot manufacturers..

Pistol/revolver-weight bullets with their necessarily-low sectional densities and dimal ballistic coefficients require extremely accurate range doping, for use beyond a couple-hundred yards or so.. being shaped like glorified hockey pucks, they tend to exhibit very similsr flight characteristics..

In fine, the .444 is what it always has been, a marginally competent compromise round, designed by a Marketing Department, under pressure From the powers that were.. It fails to shine as a long range boomer, because of bullet limitations.. Close-up work can be handled just as well by the .44 Mag., or .45 Colt, which cartridges occupy about Half the volume of .444 ammo.. .. The .444 does not fulfill anyone's dreams of a ".44 Swift", regardless of bullet weight.. Again.. In my opinion and experience, the .444 is an interesting and enigmatic 'also ran..'

If someone has one, and has learned to load for it, it can serve as a "survival" rifle, but going out and buying one for that purpose ignores so many other, Better combinations out there..

As always -- YMMV...
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Buck

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Re: 444 Marlin as a 'survival' gun...

Post by Nath »

Then they did similar and came out with the 450marlin! Why?

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Re: 444 Marlin as a 'survival' gun...

Post by AJMD429 »

Nath wrote:Then they did similar and came out with the 450marlin! Why?

N.
I'll bet that was an attempt to
  • a. Keep people who reload from kabooming their Cowboy and Guide guns with 'Ruger only' loads, and

    b. Provide those who don't reload a gun that would be powerful worth regular factory loads.
To that extent I suppose they succeeded, but most 45-70 fans either reload and never think they will make a mistake, or actually prefer the 'cowboy' level loads commonly sold as factory loads.
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Re: 444 Marlin as a 'survival' gun...

Post by AJMD429 »

Nath wrote:Then they did similar and came out with the 450marlin! Why?

N.
I'll bet that was an attempt to:
  • a. Keep people who reload from kabooming their Cowboy and Guide guns with 'Ruger only' loads, and

    b. Provide those who don't reload a gun that would be powerful with regular factory loads.
To that extent I suppose they succeeded, but most 45-70 fans either reload and never think they will make a mistake, or actually prefer the 'cowboy' level loads commonly sold as factory loads.
Doctors for Sensible Gun Laws
"first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.


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Re: 444 Marlin as a 'survival' gun...

Post by Buck Elliott »

Nath wrote:Then they did similar and came out with the 450marlin! Why?

N.
There's really nothing new under the Sun..

40-odd years ago, custom 'smiths were converting '94 Winchesters to the belted .458 x 2" "American...
Regards

Buck

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