Barrel relining

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AndyM
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Barrel relining

#1 Post by AndyM » Tue Mar 18, 2008 8:28 am

Does having a barrel relined - say a 1873 or 1892 Winchester - by a gunsmith like these guys http://www.redmansrifling.com/ reduce the firearms overall value?

My opinion is that any firearm is made to be used and should be as accurate as possible, yet I know there are some people out there that look at older firearms, such as Winchesters, that they should not be messed with. I am just talking about a barrel liner to make the gun more accurate.

What are your opinions on this?
thanks...

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#2 Post by claybob86 » Tue Mar 18, 2008 8:39 am

To me, a rifle with a good relined barrel is more valuable than one with a sewer pipe of a bore. I'm not a collector, so "collector value" doesn't interest me.
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#3 Post by Sixgun » Tue Mar 18, 2008 8:42 am

I have two 1894's that have had the barrels relined. One is a 38-55 made in 1897 and another is a 32 Spl made in 1902. I experimented extensively with both guns before making that dreadfull decision, about a 1000 rounds each with different alloys, sizing diameters, and bullet designs before giving it up.

Both guns were relined by my friend and fellow shooter Craig Rittenhouse, from Tamaqua, Pa. who is a top notch gunsmith. Both guns now shoot as good as garden variety scoped boltguns.

Just Google Craig's name and town and his number will come up. Turnaround time is excellent, running about two months.

Only certain barrels can be relined, as lots of extra meat is required around the liner. Carbines and extra lightweight barrels will not work.------------------Sixgun
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#4 Post by Old Time Hunter » Tue Mar 18, 2008 8:46 am

Andy, there are two schools of thought, one right and one wrong. The wrong one is that it makes and 'original' modified therefore reducing the value. The right one of course is mine, if the re-lining is done with no outside changes (i.e. retains original finish and markings), I would rather have the reline on rifles prior to nickel steel.

You are in the same state as what I consider the premier barrel re-liner...Bobby Hoyt over in Fairfield, PA. He has done multiple collector rifles of mine and every one has increased the value much more than the cost of having it done. Get the chromemoly liner, that way it'll handle jacketed bullets too.

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#5 Post by Noah Zark » Tue Mar 18, 2008 9:22 am

Bill Gostomski in Mt. Savage, MD relined my 310 Martini Cadet and judging from the offers I've received, it increased the value.


+1 for Craig Rittenhouse, too.


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#6 Post by Gun Smith » Tue Mar 18, 2008 10:55 am

To a "collector" ANY modifaction to the gun will reduce it's "collecter" value. Even though I am a shooter and don't have any super rare Winchesters, I still resist the urge to reline.

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#7 Post by Leverdude » Tue Mar 18, 2008 10:56 am

I dont think it reduces value, I'd sure pay more for a reline than a worn bore as long as they left the rest alone.

I'v used Taylor Machine http://www.johntaylormachine.com/ before & will be sending him a couple more real soon. Never used anyone else but he's a gentleman, easy to communicate with & I cant find flaw in his work.

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#8 Post by Bruce Scott » Tue Mar 18, 2008 4:08 pm

I think the most important consideration is its value to you.

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#9 Post by marlinman93 » Tue Mar 18, 2008 7:05 pm

If a collectable gun is relined and done poorly, it will reduce the gun's value. Things like poor fit that shows the gap between liner and barrel, or ugly target crowns that don't belong on old levers or singleshots, will realy hurt!
Of course a collectable gun with even halfway shootable bore unlined is worth more than a relined bore. But if you want it to shoot good, and the bore is really bad, then I feel it's always better to "properly" reline if that's your situation.
I've personally used John Taylor Machine, and his reline jobs are superior to any I've seen, but it sounds like you've got a good gunsmith in your area too from what sixgun described.-Vall
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#10 Post by Andrew » Tue Mar 18, 2008 8:07 pm

What is the advantage of a reline compared to a re-barrel?

Is it the appeal of keeping the original barrel?

I don't see how it could be cheaper, but , I don't have a clue.
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#11 Post by claybob86 » Tue Mar 18, 2008 10:25 pm

Andrew wrote:What is the advantage of a reline compared to a re-barrel?

Is it the appeal of keeping the original barrel?
That would be the appeal for me for an old gun for which an original barrel isn't available.
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#12 Post by Old Time Hunter » Tue Mar 18, 2008 10:46 pm

The second from bottom has been relined by Bobby Hoyt...I've had "experts" assess this carbine and all thought that it was 100% original, except the bore looked just too good.

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#13 Post by Leverdude » Wed Mar 19, 2008 8:11 am

Andrew wrote:What is the advantage of a reline compared to a re-barrel?

Is it the appeal of keeping the original barrel?

I don't see how it could be cheaper, but , I don't have a clue.
Actually in my limited experience lining is cheaper.
The primary benefit in my mind tho is keeping the original barrel on the gun but cost matters too.
Its not common to find a used in great condition barrel with the proper markings in the right calibre & when you do the finish is often not a good match.

I forget exactly what John Taylor charged for the lining but it was about $300 for that, turning the shoulder back & setting headspace and welding up some wrench marks on the barrel & draw filing.

Barrels, new or old can cost more than that & new ones will need work increasing the cost more.

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Re: Barrel relining

#14 Post by WyrTwister » Wed Mar 19, 2008 8:43 am

AndyM wrote:Does having a barrel relined - say a 1873 or 1892 Winchester - by a gunsmith like these guys http://www.redmansrifling.com/ reduce the firearms overall value?

My opinion is that any firearm is made to be used and should be as accurate as possible, yet I know there are some people out there that look at older firearms, such as Winchesters, that they should not be messed with. I am just talking about a barrel liner to make the gun more accurate.

What are your opinions on this?
thanks...
If it has collectible value , you will reduce that value .

I do not know for sure , but I will bet , if you want a shooter , you can almost buy a late model rifle , for what a re-line will cost ?

Then you will have the best of both worlds . The collectible rifles , untouched , and a newer one to shoot .

The newer one can probably be had in a comperable calaber . What calabers are we talking about ?

God bless
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#15 Post by Mike Hunter » Wed Mar 19, 2008 9:13 am

Ok here are my thoughts; but keep in mind that I am biased.

Relining is the cheaper and the easier of the two methods. BUT unless done correctly can be easily spotted: wrong number of groves, wrong grove or land width, incorrect rate of twist, seam between barrel & liner.
A competent collector can spot that in about half a second. Even if the muzzle and breech ends are welded to hide the seams, the different metals of the liner and original barrel will take a different polish, and believe it or not will have a different color.


The above reasons are why I do not reline barrels.


I do on the other hand make new barrels for the old Winchesters. With a new barrel you don’t have the problems, especially if it’s made exactly like Winchester did, with correct roll markings, caliber stamps etc.

Some of my barrels have gone on very expensive rifles (20 K +), and I’m sure that other competent restorers (Turnbulls, Rodgers etc) will say the same. You will not… I say again .. You will not find relined barrels on the higher end guns.

There is a reason that there are dozens of folks relining barrels, and only a handful making new barrels. One is a lot harder to do than the other. But if done correctly no one can spot it.

A high finish gun with a relined barrel is pretty much treated like a beautiful woman with the clap: nice to look at but nobody’s taking it home.

So yes a relined barrel is a lot cheaper than a new barrel … and it shows.

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#16 Post by Sixgun » Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:03 am

Mike Hunter wrote:
Relining is the cheaper and the easier of the two methods. BUT unless done correctly can be easily spotted:


I do on the other hand make new barrels for the old Winchesters. With a new barrel you don’t have the problems, especially if it’s made exactly like Winchester did, with correct roll markings, caliber stamps etc.

Some of my barrels have gone on very expensive rifles (20 K +), and I’m sure that other competent restorers (Turnbulls, Rodgers etc) will say the same. You will not… I say again .. You will not find relined barrels on the higher end guns.

There is a reason that there are dozens of folks relining barrels, and only a handful making new barrels. One is a lot harder to do than the other. But if done correctly no one can spot it.

A high finish gun with a relined barrel is pretty much treated like a beautiful woman with the clap: nice to look at but nobody’s taking it home.

So yes a relined barrel is a lot cheaper than a new barrel … and it shows.
Mike Hunter,
As a shooter of old Winchesters and an advanced collector of these fine weapons, I have a little to say about your post.

Yep, a relined barrel is usually easily spotted, even if well done. People who have their barrels relined almost always do it so they can shoot them. They are not trying to misrepresent a fine levergun or trying to turn a $1000 shooter into a $4000 collectable. If the gun is already "shooter grade", not much harm is being done and a relining job, like a reblue over pits can be easily spotted by even the novice collector.

On the other hand, a gunsmith who pulls the barrel off of a deluxe 1886 in 50 Express because of whatever and replaces it with a newly made barrel with the correct markings, is in my opinion a fraud, and a serious one at that. You stated that "correctly done, it cannot be spotted". That means you are stamping the proof marks and "view proof marks" and other factory stampings under the barrel, unseen. By restamping the barrel address, well, unless Winchester did it, how can a gunsmith stamp "Winchester Reapeating Arms" on a barrel when they are "Joe Schmo from Iowa".

If I was paying 20 g's for a real nice '86 SRC and somehow through the grapevine I found the barrel to be a new one, I believe I would have a good basis for a lawsuit. And as you know, a fine Winchester, like a fine SA Colt with a replaced barrel is now "shooter grade".


We all know about the latest 1893 Marlin that was restored by Doug about 15-20 years ago. It was so well done, not even the experts found it. A gunsmith with any scruples would stamp his initals somewhere on the gun to show a restoration.

In my lifetime, I have found 1849 Colts made into Wells Fargo Models, Calvary SA Colts made from later 1st gens and other rare variations too numerous to mention. A guy tried to sell me a real nice deluxe 1886 HRSBFMPGTD in 45-90 that had the italisized "Winchester" stamping on the upper tang with a serial number from 1890. I laughed in his face when he tried to tell me, "it probably went back to Winchester to have the receiver replaced".

Nope, I will never fall for it--relined barrels are almost always made for the blue collar guy who just wants a better shooter while the "restamped, rebarreled, whatever, are made by unscrupulous counterfeiters who are trying to capitalize on other people's lesser knowledge of these fine antiques. (unless, of course, the restoration is properly marked)------------------------Sixgun


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#17 Post by Mike Hunter » Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:20 am

SixGun

Well I understand your point…to a point.

I do take offence to: “whatever, are made by unscrupulous counterfeiters who are trying to capitalize on other people's lesser knowledge of these fine antiques. (Unless, of course, the restoration is properly marked’

Think it’s a bit extreme:

So..If I follow that train of thought… If Jim Smith refinished his 1886 stock, he should now mark that the stock is refinished? He has the lever & hammer recased… he must now mark these parts? Replaces a screw, must that gun now have a mark that states that a screw has been replaced?

And following that train.. Relined barrels should have “Relinedâ€

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#18 Post by Sixgun » Wed Mar 19, 2008 12:41 pm

Mike,
I believe you are talking this to an extreme. The barrel and the receiver is the "heart" of the gun. You mentioned that I am advocating that every little part be marked. No-- Gun collecting, as in antique car collecting have similar trains of thought. A potential buyer for a 1969 Baldwin Motion Camaro does not mind if screws or backing plates or the carpet has been replaced. He had better see the correct codes are on the engine block and he wants the M-21 Rock Crusher trans to be in there, not some T-400.

As you know, replaced screws are acceptable in the Winchester game. Most of the time, I can even tell when this has been done. As for the recasing of hammers or levers, well, if the rest of the gun is 95%, why do these parts need to be recased? In a "right" gun, parts wear together. Sure, there are exceptions such as a blood stain on a lever, but items like this are the exception, not the rule, so rarely enter into the thoughts of a prospective purchaser.

Stocks--easy givaway, whether they have been refinished or replaced, except if the work was done 40 or 50 years ago. Varnish "patina's" like blue does. Likewise with the switching of barrels and cylinders on 1st gen Colts. It can be done but it does have to be done with original parts in likewise condition of the frame, backstrap or trigger guard, or that too, is an easy givaway. Anything done to these parts to match the rest of the gun is fraud, plain and simple, IF they are represented as original. Ray Meibalm always correctly represented his Colts and had an excellent reputation as a dealer in SA Colts.----a dying breed, sad to speak. Good thing for factory letters---while not a 100% guarantee, they are helpful.

Barrel "stretching". Yep, I've seen it. I've never seen it done right though. Tough getting the rifling to line up as it is polishing out the weld marks. These things happen so seldom, it is not cause for alarm.

But replacing barrels and total restoratons are common today and are cause for alarm. And yes, as the Lord as my witness, I see it ALL the time. Dealers selling 98%-100% guns as original. One dealer at one of the better collector shows here in Pa. always has a table of 98%-100% Winchesters. All are priced according to original guns in like condition. They are done quite nice but, an advanced collector can tell. He also throws in a few "right" guns next to the restored ones to throw people off. He does a good business. But, like the rest of the problems we have in this country, there is no need for "regulation". Knowledge is power.

I guess there are two trains of thought on this "resto" thing. I'll stick to the way the old timers thought, and thats honesty and full disclosure should go with the sale of every gun. Every major auction house will back me up on that thinking.
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#19 Post by Leverdude » Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:04 pm

I'm not a profesional collector or anything like that but I agree with Sixgun.

I'v lined the barrels I had done so I could shoot them. But I'd think they were more original than a 120 year old gun with a newly manufactured barrel.
While it certainly dosent bother me much I'm surprised its legal to put Winchester, Marlin, Colt or any other roll stamp on a barrel not made by that company. Restamping a worn one isn't the same as stamping a new one. I'd think it proper to have a manufacturer put his mark on the barrel somewhere inconspicuous, under the forend or something maybe.

That aside the main reason I get them lined instead of rebarreled is money. In 2 cases I was lucky enough to find original barrels never installed & I paid dearly for them.

Anyway, its his gun & he can do what he wants, I'm only offering my thoughts & theyre only worth what they cost.

:)

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#20 Post by Old Time Hunter » Wed Mar 19, 2008 3:18 pm

Guess I'm just a blue collar type of guy (even though I am considered a white collar professional in my field, whenever I have an adversarial disagreement and win my point verbally, with tac. I know that in my mind it would give me greater satsifaction to just physically beat the stuff out of 'em) and I like to look at my original exterior of my barrels with all the original proofs, dates, and logo's while I can still shoot the heck out of it. That is why a re-line mine first, worry about proper etiquette later. Besides, by the time my grandchildren sell off my stuff, it'll be antique again.

Just like I cut up a '69 Zenko Camero...didn't like the way it sat when they were new, but like it now 3" off the ground with a 9" Ford w/five point coil suspension under the back and coilover's in the front. Same body...just improved by my blue collar mentality.

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#21 Post by Mike Hunter » Wed Mar 19, 2008 3:37 pm

Something else to consider; once you reline that barrel… that barrel is toast, no way to repair.

Put on a new barrel, keep the original, put it on later on; its all original again.

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#22 Post by Sixgun » Wed Mar 19, 2008 4:02 pm

Leverdude wrote:
I'v lined the barrels I had done so I could shoot them. But I'd think they were more original than a 120 year old gun with a newly manufactured barrel.
While it certainly dosent bother me much I'm surprised its legal to put Winchester, Marlin, Colt or any other roll stamp on a barrel not made by that company. Restamping a worn one isn't the same as stamping a new one. I'd think it proper to have a manufacturer put his mark on the barrel somewhere inconspicuous, under the forend or something maybe.

That aside the main reason I get them lined instead of rebarreled is money. In 2 cases I was lucky enough to find original barrels never installed & I paid dearly for them.
Leverdude,
Well said about restamping/stamping---people don't mind the restamping and may actually enhance the value and the part about original barrels replacing a worn out or damaged barrel is also acceptable as they are original parts and actually came out of New Haven by the same craftsmen.----------Sixgun
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#23 Post by Sixgun » Wed Mar 19, 2008 4:09 pm

Old Time Hunter wrote: I like to look at my original exterior of my barrels with all the original proofs, dates, and logo's while I can still shoot the heck out of it.

Just like I cut up a '69 Zenko Camero...didn't like the way it sat when they were new, but like it now 3" off the ground with a 9" Ford w/five point coil suspension under the back and coilover's in the front. Same body...just improved by my blue collar mentality.
Old Time Hunter----I'm shuddering as I read your words on the Zenko :D Man, I sure wish I could go back in time and bring back a couple of those 600 horsepower machines.
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