why not?

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Grizz
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why not?

Post by Grizz »

I'm about a knee-jerk away from this, tell me why I'd hate it.

http://www.warriortalknews.com/2013/06/ ... ystem.html

I looked at an HK a couple of hours ago, $2800 with out sights or mags.

This one is less than half that. It's the same size as a Garand I think.

Image


But what a deer gun!!

Or anything else that size.

Please dissuade me. I will never own a 5.56, unless it's a pick-up.
But 308 has high utility factor and I have already harvested a
bunch of deer with the caliber. Plus I have grown fond of the
self-loader class, and like the potential this one has.

Plus I think it will absolutely send the crazy loonies over the edge.
They won't see 'sport' written all over it.

The only knock for me is the full rifle size, something I have been getting away from.

Ok, ears on...

...Grizz
Mescalero
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Re: why not?

Post by Mescalero »

Even I been thinking about that since I saw it here a few days ago.
I would not want to carry it and ammo too far, but for static defense ..............it has merit.
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Re: why not?

Post by Rusty »

Years ago HK made an SL-7. A nice, sleek looking little carbine. I should have bought one when I had the chance. :cry:
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Re: why not?

Post by jkbrea »

I packed one as a backup to a H&S Precision sniper rifle. It was a great reliable rifle. It was used hard and never failed. Very accurate and a fun to shoot although the hard plastic buttplate would leave a bruise after several full auto blasts. Carrying extra mags isn't too bad, just bulky. I would love to own my own. I say get it!
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Re: why not?

Post by 92&94 »

No reason at all, other than price :mrgreen:

Genuine HK versions are pricey, as the military semi-auto import ban caused them to come out with very different versions rather than titular "sporters" that are basically the same as a semi-auto version of the military rifle. US built clones cost less, but quality varies with the builder. The really experienced ones cost more and are busy all the time.

Least expensive are Century Arms clones, either CETME or C91 depending on which demill they started with. Century's stuff is a real stuff shoot of course, tons of horror stories out there, and tons of perfectly functional rifles as well. I have one of their CETME's with one of the "best" problems to have, muzzle brake was off kilter, as were the rear sights. Both were fairly easy fixes, some of the problems are not. No idea what the going rate on any of these is now, probably twice what it was this time last year.

If you want an actual collectable at twice the price, keep an eye out for a Santa Fe G3, they were early semi-auto imports that still have the pinned lower - a big no-no now, but the Santa Fe's are grandfathered. Those sell for more than 1980's HK's usually.

The only other downside is these rifles can be hard on brass. Using commercial .308 loads they can rip the head off the case leaving you with a brass tube in your chamber. I usually shoot surplus (heavier case) or Ruskie steel case anyway, as both are (or were :mrgreen: ) cheaper.

A big advantage, for now at least, is that German surplus mags are still plentiful and cheap.

Oh yeah, another downside, though minor IMHO, is that there is no bolt hold open on the last round. Bolt drops on the empty chamber and if you aren't counting you get a click rather than a satisfying bang. Good for teaching newbies not to flinch though :mrgreen:
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Grizz
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Re: why not?

Post by Grizz »

That sounds like very good info from experienced users. Thank you for posting.

Is it the tight chambers that eat the commercial brass? Could I fireform brass with light loads?

And with that action, can you shoot light loads? It would be fun to be able to run some 30-30 type loads too for kids and such.

The only other gun in the running is the DPMS Panther LR-308. Head to head how does that compare to the other gun? I'm sure it's not anything like the Colt in quality. But I'm not going to pay for that ticket anyway. I'm not leaning either way because I don't know enough yet. If I get one it will be my first and last semi auto long gun. Well, since the Nylon 66.

I see the point about the bolt not staying open. Is there a fix for that? It is annoying but not a deal killer. The rest of the gun sounds fine. I'm going to look for some more info.

Thanks for the info...

...Grizz
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Re: why not?

Post by Mescalero »

Does it have the HK fluted chamber?
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Re: why not?

Post by 92&94 »

All the clones, CETME's, and HK's are going to have fluted chambers, needed for the DRB action to operate.

Up to a point you can shoot lighter loads, but too light can get to be tricky, because the action is a blowback delayed by some tricky German engineering. There's a bolt head, bolt carrier, and what's called a locking piece sort of inside connecting the two other bolt parts. The locking piece has a wedge shaped nose that pushes the rollers out of the bolt head to lock the bolt to the bit that the barrel is pressed into. To shoot reduced loads, or standard loads with a longer barrel, you need a locking piece with less angle, that keeps the unlock timing correct with the bullet's position in the barrel.

How light is too light? I couldn't tell you, as I shoot factory loads of one sort or another.

The theory with ripping the brass apart does have to do with the flutes. Softer, thinner brass, and a hotter commercial load tends to push the brass into the flutes more than the designer planned for, causing more resistance to extraction. PTR had a model at one point that they said was engineered to function best with commercial loads - I suspect the flutes were larger, but I don't really know.

From what I read PTR remains one of the best deals around on this style rifle. As far as I know, most parts are interchangeable with German military. They also just announced a move to South Carolina from Connecticut - thanks entirely to the restrictive gun legislation passed in CT. I like companies that have principles and aren't afraid to make a point :mrgreen:

PTR also makes one chambered for the little Ruskie 30 cal round, but I still think the rifle looks a bit goofy with an AK banana mag sticking out.

I've seen a pretty neat home made design for a bolt hold open. A bit tricky but not impossible. Of course the question with stuff like that is does it work thousands of times without fail, or just the six times the guy posts on his youtube video. I don't know of any commercial retrofits for it. You'd think PTR in particular would have done something, but I have to wonder if part of the reason why not is to stay compatible with the cheap surplus mags.

I don't know much about comparisons to other NATO caliber battle rifles, this one is the only one I've ever owned, everything else is a bolt or lever gun :mrgreen: I've read that the AR style is great with the 308 round. But then almost everything is great with the 308, it's a great round. I might even take a liking to AK's if someone built one in 308!
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Re: why not?

Post by 92&94 »

Here's a picture of mine, a cetme with fancy wood:
Image

I have a G3 clone in the works, but it will be a long time before that's done.
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Re: why not?

Post by Mescalero »

Thank you for the detailed explanation.
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Re: why not?

Post by Grizz »

Yes, thanks. Been reading and watching them on utube and like them. ptr said they have one less flute in the chamber and that stops the brass shredding.

PTR also has a 16" barrel model that is a half pound lighter and 38-3/4" long.

The wood on yours looks good. It looks a lot better than AKs, which always strike me as clubby.

What bullet weights does your rifle prefer?
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Re: why not?

Post by olyinaz »

I've got an LR-308, and it had feeding/cycling issues right out of the box as well, but since it's an AR clone there are a lot of AR mechanics (I would not call them "gunsmiths") around who can easily sort out any problems and that's exactly what I did - fixed it and now it runs fine. Most work just fine right out of the box. There are Remington and Bushmaster versions of the same rifle. The only advantages to the LR-308 are that it is easier on brass, uses many standard AR parts for upgrades/mods etc. and even LR-308 specific parts are common. It's also available in many configurations. The looks and non-tangibles probably go to the CETME or HK (the CETME is not a clone of the HK G3 - it was developed first and then the Germans developed the G3 from it) as it's just always tickled my fancy regarding looks, but I've never coughed up the dough for one.
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Re: why not?

Post by M. M. Wright »

Had an HK for a time and just could not stand the brass being non reloadable. Have the FAL now and love it.
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Re: why not?

Post by 92&94 »

I've only shot 147 grain milsurp, no complaints with that though. Since much of the milsurp ammo is berdan primed, and Lake City ammo is twice the cost, I've never geared up to reload for it. Brass probably gets worked a little harder, but I know a few guys who reload for these rifles with no problems. You'll have flute marks on the brass, but they don't prevent reloading.
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Re: why not?

Post by flyfisher66048 »

M. M. Wright wrote:Had an HK for a time and just could not stand the brass being non reloadable. Have the FAL now and love it.

After shooting a friends HK 91, I decided to go with a DSA FAL. The HK seemed to jump about more during recoil than the FAL. It is really fun shooting 3 gun matches with a semi-auto 308. AR tend to knock over the steel plates, but the FAL sends them flying!

That being said the PTR is the best deal going in 308 semi-autos.
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Re: why not?

Post by rgates »

I had an HK-91 for a while. I reloaded the brass with no problems. The main problem was finding the brass once fired. The empties would be hurled 10 to 15 yards! Overall a very enjoyable rifle.
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Re: why not?

Post by Grizz »

This is great info and I appreciate it. When I get back from a little road trip I will decide and do one of three things.

Keep your powder dry...

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Re: why not?

Post by awp101 »

If I were to get another G3/CETME style rifle, it would be from PTR. The Century CETME I had was OK but I traded into it for not much and the bugs were already worked out. I already had a FAL and that's what I stuck with and swapped into 50.64 configuration like this one:
Image
92&94 wrote:Here's a picture of mine, a cetme with fancy wood:
Image
Whooowee that purty! :mrgreen:
Image
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Re: why not?

Post by AJMD429 »

92&94 wrote:I might even take a liking to AK's if someone built one in 308!
I think that Saiga does make an 'AK' in 308...

http://www.izhmash.ru/eng/product/saiga.shtml
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Re: why not?

Post by Marvin S »

Go ahead and do it. I have the CETME from Century when they first came out and you could buy the south african rubber battle packs of ammo for 30 bucks. I got lucky on mine and have not had one problem with it and really like the ergonimics of it. Mine is the loudest rifle I ever shot, heard tell it's the muzzle brake.
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Re: why not?

Post by 92&94 »

awp101 wrote: Image
Every now and then, that turns up again at militaryfirearm.com :mrgreen:
There is always discussion of a T-shrit or bumper sticker, but I gather the resolution is insufficient or something, and it never goes any where.

I think a lot of guys got into cetme's because of the wood stocks, before CAI started doing the plastic ones (of course, my stock is not surplus :mrgreen: )
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Re: why not?

Post by 92&94 »

AJMD429 wrote:
92&94 wrote:I might even take a liking to AK's if someone built one in 308!
I think that Saiga does make an 'AK' in 308...

http://www.izhmash.ru/eng/product/saiga.shtml
Sure enough...

Now that I see one though, I still don't like them :mrgreen:
Oh well, I don't really need another .308
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Re: why not? UPDATE

Post by Grizz »

I now have the PT-91 GI, 10 new mags, a paratroop style collapsible stock, and some Lake City ball ammo... ready for the hunts.

Planning to do the shoot one, clean well, shoot one, clean well barrel break-in routine just because I can and never have. Sounds like a pitb. But at least I won't look back and wonder if I shoulda...

Guys, thanks for the responses. I appreciate the input.

I like the rifle a lot and look forward to qualifying myself with it. I have made venison with a .308 from a kayak and dory... this would be a good kayak gun, maybe I'll get to replay that again when I get the sailing kayak built. Love to shoot from my boats.

muchas gracias amigos
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Re: why not?

Post by horsesoldier03 »

I would much rather have a Springfield M1A1 or SOCOM! JUST SAYIN
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Re: why not?

Post by Streetstar »

good call Grizz, ---- I love those big 'ol reliable rifles -- I am in the processing of cleaning out some of my unnecessaries -- may have to fill in some blank space in the safe with one --- my fun store has a para FAL from DSA on the shelf , but its premium bucks (so is the M1A there too) in comparison to the G3 clone

Didn't get a chance to carry one in the Army, but my unit did have a few G3's in inventory for longer range stuff in the D'Storm era --- my only real experience is playing with them on the range, but I liked the accuracy and the nice "feel" -- (feel being a term that is hard to quantify)



scene from Chevy Chases' arms dealer movie "Deal of the Century" -- fun stuff and it is directly about the HK91
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Re: why not?

Post by Grizz »

Thanks Guys

I looked at the springfield. If they were selling for around a grand and if the mags were around three bucks, and if there were easy and ready scope mount options, I might have bought one. I had one in my hands shortly before I bought my rifle.

If I could get a Colt 901 for a grand I would have it now. I can get three 91s for the price of the Colt. MilSurp has its benefits.

The recoil operated 91 action is very attractive to me from the mechanical point of view. And I like how short it is with the para stock. It is shorter than my 870 clone with M4 stock collapsed. With a 16" barrel and no flash hider it would be 4" shorter than that. Can't get much handier than that.

Here's the current offering from one source:

http://www.onesourcetactical.com/ptr91g ... fle-2.aspx

they were great to deal with.

Grizz
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Re: why not?

Post by mikld »

Now, you know nobody is ever talked out of buying a gun here on Leverguns. Using patrol rifles (aka assault rifles) for hunting purposes is common today, so yeah, if that's what you want, do it. My M1 Garand may accompany me on a huntin' trip...
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Re: why not?

Post by Old Ironsights »

I actually don't know how I missed this thread...

Image

Image

Image
Grizz wrote:Thanks Guys

I looked at the springfield. If they were selling for around a grand and if the mags were around three bucks, and if there were easy and ready scope mount options, I might have bought one. I had one in my hands shortly before I bought my rifle.

If I could get a Colt 901 for a grand I would have it now. I can get three 91s for the price of the Colt. MilSurp has its benefits.

The recoil operated 91 action is very attractive to me from the mechanical point of view. And I like how short it is with the para stock. It is shorter than my 870 clone with M4 stock collapsed. With a 16" barrel and no flash hider it would be 4" shorter than that. Can't get much handier than that.

Here's the current offering from one source:

http://www.onesourcetactical.com/ptr91g ... fle-2.aspx

they were great to deal with.

Grizz
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Re: why not?

Post by Grizz »

you were a positive peer influence in my decision. I am very happy with the rifle and pleased with how soft shooting it is. maybe I will look for a cheap enough speedgoat tag.....

I got the paratroop stock too but shot it with the 2x4. Going to make a shorter stock or file stops in the para stock to make it adjustable.

pls tell me about your scope..

and sling... the stock leather sling is a torture device..
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Re: why not?

Post by Old Ironsights »

Like I said earlier about the scope/mount. The mount is a cheap UTM mount that is not all that sturdy and a Pain in the rear to attach. The scope is a cheap ($50?) 4x. You not that it is not currently mounted (top pic) (mainly because I can't get it on the gun with the Port Buffer installed.... trying to find another solution in my copious spare time) :roll:

The top pic also gives a decent view of that Port Buffer. It makes brass recovery both easier and keeps the port from creasing the brass.

The Sling is a German OEM 3-pt sling made for the G3. IIRC I got it from either Numrich or Sportsmans guide but it should be findable on the 'net somewhere.

Really, I wouldn't hesitate at all to shoot Speed Goats or Deer out to 300M with just the Irons... but a good quick-detach scope does have its merits. I just want it to be low-mount and not Claw... and I'm too cheap to shell out $125 right at the moment: http://www.hkparts.net/shop/pc/Scope-Mo ... 9p2805.htm

Go HERE for further gun-specific discussion.

Think I may need one of these to go with it....

Image

Gotta find an IWB Holster first though. :lol:
Last edited by Old Ironsights on Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: why not?

Post by rjohns94 »

I have owned two H&K '91s. Excellent shooters. I got rid of the first one because of one reason and I bought a second one a few years later just to make sure that reason was still valid and it was. I sold it quick too. That reason is that the hump back nailed my cheeck bone each time I shot. Very painful. In order to get into the sights, the cheeck came in contact with the humpback. Great weapons. Just not for me
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Re: why not?

Post by BAGTIC »

Many years ago a friend had one. We went shooting together one day, all short range 100 yards, and my Winchester M100 with a peep shot groups a third the size of the HK. I have never even looked at one since.
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Re: why not?

Post by Grizz »

BAGTIC wrote:Many years ago a friend had one. We went shooting together one day, all short range 100 yards, and my Winchester M100 with a peep shot groups a third the size of the HK. I have never even looked at one since.
Here's one plinking at 570 yards.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jH7Q2oG-rW0

the G3 shooting starts about 9:35

Seems OK to me.
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Re: why not?

Post by MrMurphy »

Missed this thread too....

While I carried the M16/M4 in my time, and prefer it, of the 7.62 crowd not counting the modern stuff i.e 'before 1970' I'd rate them FAL/M14/G-3 for actual use.

FAL is the best compromise do-it-all service rifle, the M14 has the best sights and trigger. The HK is reliable, but throws brass and kicks more. Trigger's not as good either.


Of the modern stuff, SCAR-H for general purpose, OBR or SR-25 for precision work.
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Re: why not?

Post by Grizz »

Thanks MrMurphy and Bagtic for the input.

I have not shot any of the guns you mentioned... but I find the PT-91 to be very soft shooting and controllable. And fun. And easy to like. And a good workout when I do stretching exercises. :D

There is a rebel streak in me that likes the delayed blowback action, v.s. the gas operated class of rifles. You know, like 1911s and XDs. :wink:

The german-spanish-german-american heritage is delightful. It's a combo of de-milled and new manufacture. I'm thinking of buying the wood furniture just because I can. I'm trying to decide on a paint scheme. Suggestions would be helpful.

I'm certain it has vices and maybe its own personality. I'm looking forward to discovering them and at this point in my life I'm fairly certain that this is the only half auto rifle I will ever own.

I hope I get to make meat with it some day, it deserves a field trip.
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Re: why not?

Post by MrMurphy »

The HK ergonomics blow chunks, but that hasn't changed since about 1959, so no surprises.

The German army has had a love-hate relationship with the G-3 and the G-36 (it's replacement). I know a German sergeant with the option to do so who took a G-3/SG (?) accurized model to Afghanistan instead of the usual G-36 due to cracking issues the 36 had from the cold. He'd been carrying a G3A3 for going on 20 years and stuck with old reliable.

They're good rifles, but heavier than the book says they are or need to be. A hard blow in the right spot can permanently put the rifle out of action due to the stamped steel, but that's million to one odds.

I'd still prefer a FAL (carbine by preference) over the G-3/HK series, but I wouldn't complain if it's what I was issued. The Norwegians were using theirs quite happily till a a few years ago when they updated to the HK416.
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Re: why not?

Post by Grizz »

I see both the 7.62 and 5.56 or the AK X39 round in Mexico on the Federales. I haven't asked them if they are CETME or HK and don't know how to spot the difference yet. Can't get a good enough look at the trigger group without inviting reciprocal interest. :lol: They appear to have plastic furniture though. It looks like the jefes carry the 308s and the grunts have the smaller round. I just hope their training is up there.

Picked up an M&P 5.56 at the LGS a few minutes ago and got the picture about weight, they're weightless.

I know someone with an FAL so I suppose I'll get to discover what I'm missing at some point.

Grizz
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Re: why not?

Post by MrMurphy »

They use HKs. Possibly locally made by license (there's over 60 countries using H&K products, a lot of them made in their own country by license......even Iran).


CETMEs never really saw service outside Spain and former colonies (Africa?). They have a long history of German weaponry and went to the G-36.


Mexico has a wide mix of 'everything' kind of like a few other third world countries, depends on which branch, what state, etc. They also have that new FX-5? I think which is a rebranded version of either the G-36 or something close to it, i haven't seen one in person.
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