Who knows Ruger Blackhawks well?

Nobody · Post by **Nobody** » Sat Jun 22, 2013 9:21 pm

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Terry Murbach · Post by **Terry Murbach** » Sat Jun 22, 2013 9:24 pm

DO YOU WANT IT ALL IN FOUR SENTANCES OR DO YOU WANT THE BOOK ??

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sat Jun 22, 2013 10:28 pm

Google David Clements or Alan Harton.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sat Jun 22, 2013 10:33 pm

I don't know the answers to what you're asking, but I'm curious as to what the project is...

Tell us more about it, while you're waiting for some answers. (That is, if the deluge of posts and resultant fights over whether you should do what you're doing don't swamp the thread...

)

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Sat Jun 22, 2013 10:34 pm

Bob the Harley dude,
I can give you all of that info, but it will take a week or two to write it out. I take VISA

---------------6

Post by **Chuck 100 yd** » Sat Jun 22, 2013 11:07 pm

Nobody · Post by **Nobody** » Sat Jun 22, 2013 11:19 pm

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Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 12:32 am

Bobthemotorcycle wrote:
AJMD429 wrote:I don't know the answers to what you're asking, but I'm curious as to what the project is...
Tell us more about it, while you're waiting for some answers. (That is, if the deluge of posts and resultant fights over whether you should do what you're doing don't swamp the thread... )
If I tell about what I am doing it will be two pages of why it should not be done.

S'alright, I got plenty of soda & popcorn to watch any entertainment it might provide.

BTW, I gave you the names of two highly respected single action gunsmiths who CAN answer your questions. Wherher they WILL, is for you to find out.

DPris · Post by **DPris** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 2:15 am

I won't be the first to tell you not to do it.
I will be the first to suggest you find another use for your shiny new machinist degree.

You have no conception of what's involved with your project & a two paragraph answer to your questions won't get you there.

You don't know the gun, you don't know the metallurgy, you don't know the tolerances needed, you don't know ammunition.

You also don't get a complete class on all that here.
Nor are you likely to get that all from a busy gunsmith who's engaged in making a living FROM knowing all those things & almost certainly won't have the time to educate you in such basic areas.

On the other hand, if you can talk either of the two guys mentioned above into DOING the work for you, and you have a lot more money than the result would be worth to spend on the gun, you could send it out to be done.

You don't want to hear it, but you need a lot more than a machinists degree to know what's involved. A machinist degree does not make anybody into a gunsmith.

I can answer your easy ones to get you started:
Frame's the same on both calibers.
The .357 Magnum produces MUCH higher pressures than the .45 Colt.
The firing pins are in the same "location" on both.

Depending on what was done to your gun, it might even be possible to return it to Ruger to be "restored" to cartridge-firing condition.
Denis

MacEntyre · Post by **MacEntyre** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 5:23 am

DPris wrote: Depending on what was done to your gun, it might even be possible to return it to Ruger to be "restored" to cartridge-firing condition.

That's what I would do... rather have a real Ruger Blackhawk, restored by Ruger.

piller · Post by **piller** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 8:16 am

I am a complete novice compared to TERRY, Sixgun, 86er, and several others on here, so I will not even try to say what they can tell you. One thing I know is that if it is a Ruger, the factory will restore it shooting condition if it can be done. If Ruger factory workers cannot fix it, then it probably is not capable of being restored without much more time and money than it is worth. To restore a gun, you should know what needs to be at which hardness, and why. Even Paul Mauser lost an eye in making the famous Mauser rifle used in WWII. If you want to self teach on gunsmithing, start with a project that you can easily obtain replacements on if you make an error. I am not trying to make light of what you might be able to do, but I am concerned for your safety. I have seen people come in to have prescriptions filled due to accidents where they were injured while working on something or other, and it is rarely fun. Nate Kiowa Jones on this forum sells a DVD and parts to slick up the action on one particular model of rifle, and it is a self teaching type of job with his DVD and parts. Projects such as that are a good idea to start with to build up knowledge of how guns work, and then a good working knowledge of reloading should be used to know what pressures and stresses you are going to be working with. If you are wanting to wildcat something such as necking a .45 Colt down to a .357, you need to know how the necking down will affect pressures and maybe cause problems such as potential flame cutting of the upper frame if the cylinder gap is improper. Sleeving an old cylinder is not really a good idea unless the firearm has sentimental value and you really want to make it into a shooter using a reduced caliber low pressure load, and the barrel would have to be replaced or sleeved to do that. There are many replacement cylinders available and a good gunsmith can properly bore them and time them so that your pistol might become a shooter again.

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 10:01 am

.

[A machinist degree does not make anybody into a gunsmith.]

Amen, Denis.

"Empowerment" isn't everything...............................................

.

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 10:03 am

Sure helps to know the basics though.

SteveR · Post by **SteveR** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 10:28 am

I would be one of the few to say go for it, but first don't call the gun you are going to work on a BlackHawk, or Ruger, or any mention of Ruger products. The gun manufacturers have enough lawyer problems without somebody building a bomb that may blow up years from now when it has been sold to some poor unsuspecting buyer.

Maybe you could email Ruger and ask for some spec sheets that were probably submitted to UL for insurance purposes, and that would give some information.

This idea to me raises some questions about how much you understand of what goes on in a cylinder when the bullet is fired.

Bobthemotorcycle wrote: If I was to take a .45 cylinder turn some slugs on a lath and put into a .45 cylinder and then re bore to .357 what steel would I use. Would regular 1095 be ok or would something like S7 or W2 or A1 be better?

I think you may want to look at some gunsmithing books and really get a feel for ballistics and what the pressure involved ect.

Steve

DPris · Post by **DPris** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 12:31 pm

The ability to work with metals to tight tolerances is a critical part of the gunsmith's skill, but far from the only part.

Knowing guns & internal ballistics is also critical, and it takes years for a gunsmith to learn & become competent at his trade.
Without a basic foundation & with no gunsmithing experience whatever, an ambitious total rebuild along the lines of what you're proposing is unlikely to turn out well.
You'll also need specific tools, and you can't expect a phone tutorial from an expert to cover what you need to know.

In this case, while such a "project" might seem to be fun to play around with, not knowing the properties of the steels, the physical characteristics of the guns, the pressures, the angles, the timing, and so on, a more practical idea would be to dig up a new cylinder & barrel and get them swapped out.

Correct heat treating would be an issue if welding up the frame & hammer, too.

One other suggestion if you insist on trying to go ahead with the idea yourself would be to buy a good reloading manual & pick up a copy of Kuhnhausen's The Ruger Single-Action Revolvers Shop Manual.

Those two would offer some of the foundation you need.

Your reference to making it into a "modern gun" is also vague. It is a modern gun.
What was done to it?
Denis

Nobody · Post by **Nobody** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 12:42 pm

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mohavesam · Post by **mohavesam** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 12:59 pm

I won't degrade you for your project. But I won't recommend it either (for a shooting handgun).

Barrel sleeve-ing is a freeze-n-fit proposition. That's after you rifle ordnance-grade steel with a ceramic button.
Timing a cylinder and action is a very tedious process and holds a crippling potential if not done perfectly. Just because Ruger specs most timing stars and people get lucky most of the time with swap-outs, doesn't mean shaving and explosions don't happen. Eyes and fingers can be lost.

I'm surprised your professor or class "leader" would allow a firing gun for a project? I'd recommend making a smoothbore barrel for a Contender or encore first...

For my lathe diploma I had to make threading test - three 10-inch samples wearing ten thread sections including metric and inch threads, including two interrupted threads; on three consecutive days with three complete scratch setups. All starting thread indexes had to be perfect - within 2 degrees as I recall. And one twin but internal threads. Oh yeah, then there were the gear sets cut from stainless... The mold makers had it tougher.

Nobody · Post by **Nobody** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 1:03 pm

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Nobody · Post by **Nobody** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 1:11 pm

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DPris · Post by **DPris** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 1:16 pm

Since you don't want to hear it, I won't mention that overconfidence is not your best friend.
It isn't as simple as you seem to think it is.
You also undoubtedly don't want to hear that there just may be a good reason why people are not ganging up to cheer you forward.

The only other bit of advice I'll pass on is that I wouldn't recommend 1095, that's not a steel often used in high-temp & high-pressure gun applications.
You want to use your itching-to-run degree in making a knife, that'd be different & 1095's fine there.

Beyond that, you may find some reluctance for people to give you more specific suggestions, since there is a certain liability factor.

The work you're considering is something I would ONLY trust to someone at the level of Harton, Clements, or Bowen. It is not a novice project & I wouldn't even fire such a gun after it'd been worked over by anybody just out of Machinist School.
I'm not knocking your degree or your abilities within its confines, just giving you a safety advisory.
You are in way over your head.

Denis

Nate Kiowa Jones · Post by **Nate Kiowa Jones** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 1:18 pm

Bobthemotorcycle wrote:I need to talk to a gun smith that really know Blackhawks well. When I say well I mean he knows everything about them. He knows the Rockwell C scale hardness, he knows what the frame is made of and how to weld on it and he knows how to anneal the frame and how to normalize and how to heat treat.

I need somebody who knows Rugers better than Bill Ruger ever has.

Also, is the .357 and .45 frame the same frame on the Blackhawks and does the .357 mag produce higher pressures than the .45 colt? Would a .45 colt get by with a weaker frame than the .357 mag?

If I was to take a .45 cylinder turn some slugs on a lath and put into a .45 cylinder and then re bore to .357 what steel would I use. Would regular 1095 be ok or would something like S7 or W2 or A1 be better?

Is the firing pin on both the .45 and .357 frames in the same place?

Catastrophic failures of revolvers usually results in the cylinder and top strap being blown off.
The cylinder is where the highest pressures are contained. Why would you sleeve it when you could just make another cylinder?

It sounds like you have one of the old fast draw BK's that had the rear sight removed and the top strapped welded up. Not a problem for low pressure blank fire but not a good thing for live ammo. Welding on the frame of a revolver is a Pelosi shoot. particularly Rugers because they are investment cast.
I do weld on gun parts but not on any of the pressure parts.

Nobody · Post by **Nobody** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 1:46 pm

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AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 2:02 pm

I was thinking even a redo to 22 WMR, for a full size 'companion gun' to pair up to a factory one in 44 or 45.

Glad to see some folks got some good advice out without a big dust-up.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 2:02 pm

I was thinking even a redo to 22 WMR, for a full size 'companion gun' to pair up to a factory one in 44 or 45.

Glad to see some folks got some good advice out without a big dust-up.

C. Cash · Post by **C. Cash** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 2:10 pm

Alan Harton is The Dude! Been lucky to have had him work on 2 of mine. He has alot of crazed SA dudes bugging and begging him for "one more" though so no doubt his hands are full, but it's still worth a try.

DPris · Post by **DPris** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 2:24 pm

Bob,
You asked for technical advice on a very bad idea.
You showed an appalling ignorance of what's involved.
You showed a cocky how-hard-can-it-be attitude when people tried to educate you on how bad your idea is.

You may not know who Terry, Nate, and I are, but we've (among some other very knowledgeable posters) all three been involved in the gun industry for many years & do happen to know something about what you very obviously don't.
Terry has a long background in handgunning & ammunition (he & I've discussed guns a fair bit in years gone by & he knows what he's talking about), Nate has a long background as a gunsmith (I've had three samples of his work here), and I have years of experience in dealing with top gunsmiths around the country (three projects on Rugers with Bowen including a Blackhawk, one on a Ruger with Clements, among others) and more than 20 years of dealing with people inside Ruger at various levels, including plant managers & a good friend with his own background in the casting facility.

I have, in fact, discussed welding with Bowen, he takes it very seriously on Ruger's castings & doesn't approach it anywhere near as lightly as you do.
He is a master, you are a grasshopper.

In my case, I gave you two very good suggestions to begin learning with the Kuhnhausen & reloading books, and further that your 1095 steel wouldn't be the best way to go.
Others have tried to give you advice based on much vaster knowledge & experience than you have.

Your sarcasm is unwarranted.
If somebody comes on here saying they want help in building a gun that's quite likely to result in a name change to either Two-Finger Charlie, Lefty, or Ol' SomebodyhelpmegopottyIain'tgotnohands, they have no right to get indignant when clearly told what they're proposing is NOT a good idea & they don't know what they think they know.

Denis

Nobody · Post by **Nobody** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 2:47 pm

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DPris · Post by **DPris** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 3:06 pm

What I think is that you underestimate both your ability & the complexity of your original plan, and you don't want to hear much of anything other than "Great idea!"

If you don't know the difference in pressures between the .45 Colt & the .357 Mag, you do NOT "understand the pressures" and quite likely don't understand the dangers, either.

If you proceed, you'll risk your body parts, not ours, but still don't expect a lot of encouragement. Once you start messing with welding on that cast frame, it's very much a Pelosi shoot, as Nate very aptly says.
Whoever did the topstrap, if that's what was done, may have left it dangerously weakened in that area. Safe for blanks or wax, not for .357 Mag pressures. You trying to re-weld something there, or anywhere on that frame, can also leave it dangerously weak if you don't know the metallurgy, don't know the technique, and don't have the equipment to do it properly.

The 9mm is also a higher-pressured caliber than the .45 Colt, and while not quite as hot as the .357 Mag, still has its own hazards.

Nobody's dumping on you merely for the fun of it, Bob, just trying to educate you.
Denis

olyinaz · Post by **olyinaz** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 3:32 pm

Bobthemotorcycle wrote:To save everybody from having a hart attack I am just going to buy a 9mm cylinder with barrel and hammer.

Project over, return to your regular life.

People think because they can sand on an action for cowboy action shooting they are great gun smiths.

Well thanks for telling me how much you know with out proving it.

"Well I can tell you that's not a good idea but if you want real facts you will have to go somewhere else and pay them".

Thank you all you arm chair action job smiths for providing no information at all. Now go back to discussing how good your Rossie and Uberti guns are.

Thanks for the replys but I don't care if you feel I should not do it, that is not what the post is about.

What did you expect with your opening post? A little explaining and laying the groundwork would have gone a long ways.

I'd be one of the first to tell you to go for it and not be dissuaded by the fraidy cats, but you got pretty much exactly what I was expecting with your posting demeanor and now you're angry about it?

Grow up some in the interpersonal relationship arena. Learn to lubricate a conversation appropriately to avoid galling.

DPris · Post by **DPris** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 4:03 pm

Bob has a right to be proud of his machinist degree.
At the same time keeping in mind the old saying "When you have a bright & shiny new hammer, everything looks like a nail."

This gun project is not the best nail to use that bright & shiny new degree on.

Denis

Post by **Chuck 100 yd** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 4:49 pm

Contact Lee Martin here.
http://www.singleactions.com/Gallery2.html
He is a great guy who makes cylinders from scratch and does his own heat treating.
I am sure he will be glad to help. I would first join his forum and ask there. He will respond. Also look at his work and his videos. I can only dream of doing work like he does.

Nobody · Post by **Nobody** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 4:58 pm

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Nobody · Post by **Nobody** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 5:12 pm

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DPris · Post by **DPris** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 5:28 pm

Jeeze, guy, what do you think you're accomplishing here?

YOU are testing US, is that it?

Why would you want to buy a new cylinder?
Easier, faster, safer, infinitely better odds of success.

Not to mention the probable wear on the old one. Quick-draw slams those cylinders around & it's notoriously hard on bolt (or as Ruger calls it "cylinder latch") notches. Yours may be about worn out.
Your bolt/latch equally so.
You know how to install & time a new bolt, IF you can get one?

Quick-draw isn't easy on pawls, or ratchets, either. You know how to set those up & time the action?
You know how to deal with possible headspacing issues?
How to index the barrel? How to set the B/C gap?

You really know ANYTHING about working on a Blackhawk?

Get the Kuhnhausen manual, if nothing else. There's a whole section on caliber conversions, along with just about everything else you'll need to know to competently work on the gun.
Denis

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 6:05 pm

Bobthemotorcycle wrote:Lol, to older post, yes I do need to learn how to talk a little sweeter.
I may buy a 9mm cylinder and bore to .38 special rounds only.

The two smartest things you've written in this thread.

That 1st one, we ALL need to exercise that talent.

Why would you? 1st, it IS the containment vessel for the small explosion you're going to set off. It has already passed muster with the factory whose name is on it. As long as you don't overheat it when boring it out, you should be ok.

The real reason I suggested those pros? If one of them accepts the project and it still goes horribly wrong... at least your heirs have somewhere to go for burial expenses.

And Bob, the responses you got here are quite restrained compared to some forums.

Nobody · Post by **Nobody** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 6:37 pm

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Nobody · Post by **Nobody** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 6:42 pm

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DPris · Post by **DPris** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 7:42 pm

You got it, Bud.
Denis

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 7:54 pm

Take that shiny new degree and make a chess set....you can move the pieces around with one hand while you are recuperating....

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 8:21 pm

Couple of other points; what you need to find out is the steel your donor cylinder is made from and match your chamber insderts to it. certainly do not the expansions rates to differ between the two.

Lastly, do you know the "provenence" of your donor pistol? If it was owned by a famous quick draw competitor, and is still viable as a blank shooter, it just might be worth a few cents to a collector.

Nobody · Post by **Nobody** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 8:23 pm

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Nobody · Post by **Nobody** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 8:29 pm

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stretch · Post by **stretch** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:11 pm

I love projects like this one!

If you want to learn about revolvers,
making one or major parts of one will teach you a great deal.

That said, you haven't yet done anywhere near enough homework, Bob.
It's absolutely true that a first-class machinist can machine any dimension
ya want in a wide variety of materials. The trick here is EXACTLY what
dimensions and EXACTLY what materials are needed.

One (Only one!) Google search brought up this:
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/gu ... er-175631/

This answers the question about which steel to use in a cylinder.

Also kinda demonstrates the sort and amount of homework you have to do!

And all of whatever you find needs confirmation from multiple sources.

Why sleeve the cylinder? It'll never be as strong as a solid piece, so why not
do some research and make a cylinder from scratch? Little 38 Special holes
in a 45 Colt-sized cylinder would give PLENTY of safety factor, and you'd
learn an ENORMOUS amount about the proper dimensions of those holes,
and what the material surrounding those holes should be like.
While you're at it, machine and rifle a barrel.

Welding a frame? Do your homework, and get an aircraft-certified welder to
do it, or learn to weld to that standard yourself. Magnaflux. Done right, it'll
outlast all of us with 38 Special loads, if, in fact, you find that it's doable safely.
http://www.rifleshootermag.com/2011/12/ ... gun-metal/

I think most of the information that you need is out there. But DO YOUR
HOMEWORK!! Once you're done with it, you'll have an amazing firearm, and
if you do it right, it oughta shoot like a dream. It's difficult, but not impossible
for a project like this to turn out well on the first try. You may have to make
several cylinders and/or barrels before everything works as advertised. 38 Special
is a good caliber to start with.

You sound as if you've developed the machining skills to cope with the project.
You haven't yet acquired the gunsmithing knowledge you need, and your ego is
a little bit in the way. You'll have to earn information the hard way, because, as has
been mentioned before, some of these smiths keep that knowledge to themselves.

Good Luck with it. Report back with pics, targets, load data and suchlike
when you're done.

-Stretch

Nobody · Post by **Nobody** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:29 pm

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Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:32 pm

Bobthemotorcycle wrote:
BlaineG wrote:Take that shiny new degree and make a chess set....you can move the pieces around with one hand while you are recuperating....

There is no need to insult me if you do not care for my post then do not log onto them. Who and what are you. Are you somebody I am suppose to have heard of and fear? You guys may have established an order of higher achy amongst yourselves and feel you are great but to me until you prove otherwise you are just arm chair gun shop gurus. You have neither proven anything to me or impressed me.

@ BlaineG, your a mouth and in need of correction.

Like I said....

I'm in the phone book out in Spanaway....come on out and correct me, Hot Shot...

stretch · Post by **stretch** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:45 pm

Bob, my one real concern is with welding the frame. You need an
EXPERT welder to explain what can and can't be done. So,
you'll need to know EXACTLY what it's made of before you
ask your welder what he(or she!) thinks. Ruger should be able
to help you with what it's made of.

-Stretch

Nobody · Post by **Nobody** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 10:50 pm

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Nobody · Post by **Nobody** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 11:13 pm

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olyinaz · Post by **olyinaz** » Mon Jun 24, 2013 12:14 am

Black powder only would certainly help regarding pressures. They made/make BP only pistols out of brass after all. If simply reaming the cylinder is an option, perhaps .44 Russian (.44 S&W American) instead of .45 Colt would be a good choice. Honestly, ream the cylinder, mount a .44 barrel and headspace it, and then even with that trimmed down frame the pistol would probably be safe for black powder only in .44 Russian! (I'm assuming that the metallurgy in the frame has not been compromised.)

Just thinking out loud here and trying to think outside the box too.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Mon Jun 24, 2013 4:54 am

What really amazes me about this post is how did it manage to get to three pages?

The gun is not (not insulting you Bobby the Harley dude) exactly worth doing anything to except to maybe use as a paperweight. Rugers are not rare or even seldom seen. They are around here like flies and cost about the same as 8 tankfuls of gas.

Why all the bother to make something out of nothing?------------Sixgun