Gforce Chips

[Old Savage]

Fellas - what do we think or know of these?

[cshold]

I think you'll have better luck with the g-spot than the gforce.
http://www.ripoffreport.com/r/gforce-pe ... mer-794770

[Old Savage]

Thought - wonder if this might void the 83 year warranty I bought?

[sore shoulder]

Thought - wonder if this might void the 83 year warranty I bought?

Probably. The only way I know of to avoid voiding the warranty with a chip or programmer is to purchase from, and have it installed by, the dealership, and also make sure you have in writing that it's covered by your warranty.

However, for a newer vehicle like the Jeep you bought, I seriously doubt you are going to find any justifiable HP or mileage gains, if you got any at all, as they've pretty much got the factory tuning down.

Also, most of the horsepower and mileage gains advertised by those and most other "bolt on" performance mods are complete lies. Example, my buddy who has a dyno once told me he could change the cigarette lighter and show a 10HP gain, that's how easily manipulated they are.

My opinion, as a lifetime gearhead/hot rodder/shadetree (and also diesel repair certified) if you wanted high performance, you bought the wrong vehicle. Leave it alone and enjoy it for what it is.

[Old Savage]

Thanks SS, just wondered. I am happy with the Patriot as is. Actually has more HP than my 87 Coupe de Ville. Gas mileage appears to be better than advertised from my two around town tanks of gas 22.5/23 mpg and one very mixed including around town, freeway, and in the mountains between here and LA. 25.6 mpg. I suspect on the straight and level it would exceed the upper estimate just from watching closely a lot of variations in the Tacoma mileage under different conditions. The computer/engine/6spd trans can be pretty busy or sedate or very perky depended on what it is doing. Never had a muscle car so can't compare that sort of thing. It seems very good for what I bought it for and what I thought it was when I bought it. But just like certain rifle load combinations as in one 35 Whelen I had and my 6mm Rem in a Ruger 77 sometimes you see performance outside what is expected or recorded. One fellow I talked to was getting 30 mpg at times with his Patriot.

Mike, I will keep you suggestion of performance tips in mind.

[sore shoulder]

OS, I've no doubt the performance and mileage you are experiencing are going to be pretty good. The current factory engine designs and tuning are pretty amazing. Broader power bands from the smaller engines, coupled with more gear selections has really made impressive gains in the average car.

One thing I forgot on the chips/tuners that may be helpful to others considering them. One of the ways they fool you into thinking it's adding more power is by advancing the throttle curve. This doesn't actually add any power at all. It will be reported as "more responsive". What it really does is make the pedal more "touchy". All it is really doing is this. Say you have 50% throttle input from the pedal, and factory tuning calls for 50% of the fuel available. The aftermarket tune will call for that same 50% fuel at 25% throttle input. So the first thing you notice is "man, I barely touch the pedal and she takes off now". This makes the "seat of the pants", or "butt dyno" read as having "more power", when it doesn't, it's just bringing it in earlier.
This gets really old when trying to drive sedately around town. I've had chips that I was able to view the mapping in software and that's exactly what they did, very little if any fuel was actually added on top. Most stock injectors will only flow so much fuel anyway, so it's really impossible for a chip to add any real power without an injector change.

[cshold]

Never a doubt in my mind

[66GTO]

I wouldn't bother with modiying the tune on a Patriot. If you had a Hemi, that would be a different story. I've had two, a 5.7 and a 392 (currently). I've modified the tune in both of them to a noticeable effect in horsepower, drivability, and mpg (positive in all respects). In the 5.7 I used a Diablosport handheld tuner and on the 392 I had the stock computer modified by a specialty shop. I noticed the biggest difference in the 5.7, less so in the 392.

Guys who have done before and after dyno pulls report about 15-25 hp increase over stock using premium fuel. That was more noticeable in the 340 hp 5.7, and less so in the 470 hp 392. The other thing the tune does is make the automatic transmission shifts firmer, stops the computer from pulling timing at each shift, and raises the redline and shift points.

No need for any of this on a Patriot.

[sore shoulder]

The other thing the tune does is make the automatic transmission shifts firmer, stops the computer from pulling timing at each shift, and raises the redline and shift points.

All good reasons for them to void the factory warranty, and very bad for a stock tranny in general.

The Hemi is a high performance motor, so does have the ability to benefit from a tuner like most other high performance engines will (injectors capable of flowing a significant amount of fuel over what a stock program calls for) whereas the average vehicle won't. I've used Edge and Superchips programmers, and a couple different chips (they are different in that a programmer removes, stores and then overwrites the vehicles computer program, a chip bypasses). Right now I'm running custom tunes on a TS 6 position chip and I have very large stage II injectors, larger faster spooling turbo, larger intercooler, larger exhaust, open element intake etc etc. I also have a $4000 dollar tranny with billet forward drum and custom triple disk billet torque converter to handle it.


One thing about dyno's, they are subjective, and they are not all equal, and some numbers are corrected and others aren't. A dyno run should be backed up by 1/4 mile times. Vehicle weight and trap speed will be more accurate than a dyno. I've been to several dyno events where guys who made big numbers on a liberal roller were very very disappointed in their numbers on an "honest" dyno.

[66GTO]

The other thing the tune does is make the automatic transmission shifts firmer, stops the computer from pulling timing at each shift, and raises the redline and shift points.

All good reasons for them to void the factory warranty, and very bad for a stock tranny in general.

I put over 100,000 miles on that transmission after the tune running it like a scalded dog. Never had a problem. I kept the transmission fluid changed above the factory recommended schedule. Your experience with your turbocharged modified motor may be different than mine. I never had a warranty claim on the engine or transmission, but would not expect the warranty to cover any damage caused by the tune. You pays your money and you takes your chances when hot rodding. The transmission behind my 392 is a manual 6 speed, Tremec 6060, the same one used in the ZR1 and Viper. I suspect it will handle my 470 hp + 25 hp from the tuner just fine.

The Hemi is a high performance motor, so does have the ability to benefit from a tuner like most other high performance engines will (injectors capable of flowing a significant amount of fuel over what a stock program calls for) whereas the average vehicle won't. I've used Edge and Superchips programmers, and a couple different chips (they are different in that a programmer removes, stores and then overwrites the vehicles computer program, a chip bypasses). Right now I'm running custom tunes on a TS 6 position chip and I have very large stage II injectors, larger faster spooling turbo, larger intercooler, larger exhaust, open element intake etc etc. I also have a $4000 dollar tranny with billet forward drum and custom triple disk billet torque converter to handle it.


One thing about dyno's, they are subjective, and they are not all equal, and some numbers are corrected and others aren't. A dyno run should be backed up by 1/4 mile times. Vehicle weight and trap speed will be more accurate than a dyno. I've been to several dyno events where guys who made big numbers on a liberal roller were very very disappointed in their numbers on an "honest" dyno.
All true, but what I was referencing was back to back dyno pulls, on the same dyno, same day, same car, before and after the tune. The delta measured the effect of the tune. Trust me, my butt dyno could tell the difference between the stock tune and the performance tune

To get back on topic, I think you and I would agree that a Jeep Patriot would not benefit from an aftermarket tune.

[tman]

GTO 66, I got a 2010 Challenger RT with the 347 CU. Hemi, Please point me in the right direction on what chip to buy.

[66GTO]

GTO 66, I got a 2010 Challenger RT with the 347 CU. Hemi, Please point me in the right direction on what chip to buy.

PM sent.

[rimrock]

If you're trying to boost performance of your engine with a computer chip, think about this. Diesels run at about 1000 degrees, and begin to melt at about 1250 degrees. Gas engines don't run quite as hot so there's more margin for error. If you're not careful. you'll end up with a blown engine.

[66GTO]

If you're trying to boost performance of your engine with a computer chip, think about this. Diesels run at about 1000 degrees, and begin to melt at about 1250 degrees. Gas engines don't run quite as hot so there's more margin for error. If you're not careful. you'll end up with a blown engine.

The"canned" tunes from the aftermarket tuners (which modify the stock computer programming and are not a "chip", even though that is common terminology) have been proven safe on mostly stock vehicles, at least the Diabo tune for the Hemi has. Where you can get in trouble is changing the canned tune by leaning out the air/fuel ratio, advancing the timing, and then turning off the knock sensors. Diablo has now removed the knock sensor disable feature after they first came out because of just what you mentioned. The Diablo tuner, SCT and others allow for a custom dyno tune if you've added a cam, heads, turbo or supercharger. Trying a DYI a tune with those mods is a recipe for disaster, best left to the pros.

I'm afraid we've gotten way off topic from OS's original post.

[sore shoulder]

If you're trying to boost performance of your engine with a computer chip, think about this. Diesels run at about 1000 degrees, and begin to melt at about 1250 degrees. Gas engines don't run quite as hot so there's more margin for error. If you're not careful. you'll end up with a blown engine.

Rimrock, now you have entered my particular brand of hot rodding. If you don't mind, I would like to politely disagree with a couple things.

Those are exhaust temperatures of a turbo charged diesel engine. The engines don't "run" at those temps. They idle at around 300, average temp just driving around will be 600-700 deg exh temp. Under a load such as towing or pulling a grade they will begin to climb. Generally speaking you want to keep those temps as low as possible but "running" at 1100 to 1200 is perfectly acceptable. Of course where you are taking those temps is also important, before or after the turbo (pre/post turbo). I have probes both pre and post, and temps can vary as much as 500 deg depending, I watch the pre turbo gauge more than the post. Also, the engines do not "begin to melt" at 1250. However sustained periods of 1250 can damage engines if heat soak is attained. I know guys who regularly peg a 1500 degree gauge running the 1/4. Of course they are only hitting those temps for the 12 seconds or less (in a full size 4x4 truck that has to run in 4 high just to get traction!!!!) .

GTO, I think the thread drift is about the only direction this could go.

Also, I wasn't intending to disagree with you per say and we are in agreement as far as the Liberty. Glad your Dodge trans is holding up, in the world of diesel trucks their trans have a bad rep. Of course even a slightly modded diesel is putting out 700 ft lbs of torque. I'm in the neighborhood of 900.

[66GTO]

sore shoulder,
The auto trans (5 speed) in the LX/LY series Hemi cars (Magnum, Charger, Challenger, and 300) is a Mercedes trans, designated the NAG1, that was a result of the brief period when Mercedes owned Chrysler. It is a pretty stout transmission with a good reputation for reliability. It is also used in the Sprinter diesel van. It wouldn't stand up to your turbo diesel, but they are good for about 500 hp/500 ft. lbs. stock and can be easily modified to handle 700-800 hp. The suspension in these cars is also borrowed from a Mercedes design. They handle really well for a big heavy car, and with the Hemi they move pretty good. Nothing like those modified turbo diesel 4x4 trucks though!

[tman]

Excellent info, Thanks 66GTO.

[Streetstar]

Of course even a slightly modded diesel is putting out 700 ft lbs of torque. I'm in the neighborhood of 900.

Why .... does it help you tow more? never understood the culture behind folks making their tow rigs run the quarter as fast as a late model 'vette. Its just another sign that we don't have any "real problems" in America

[sore shoulder]

Of course even a slightly modded diesel is putting out 700 ft lbs of torque. I'm in the neighborhood of 900.

Why .... does it help you tow more?

Actually yes, it does, and generally you will get better mileage doing it. Not to mention the axles and brakes on these newer trucks make it much safer than the old trucks my dad had in the 70's and 80's for towing loads of hay. If you ever towed anything really heavy you would understand this. Also, performance sports are one of the major sources of innovation for vehicles, and a huge part of performance is efficiency.

...never understood the culture behind folks making their tow rigs run the quarter as fast as a late model 'vette. Its just another sign that we don't have any "real problems" in America

What's to understand? It's friendly competition. It's one of the oldest past times there is. It's no different than a couple colonial farmers going head to head with their Belgian draft horses, or Kentucky horse breeders racing, or two cavemen seeing who could throw a boulder the furthest.

So I guess we haven't had any real problems since the beginning of man.

[Streetstar]

. If you ever towed anything really heavy you would understand this. Also, performance sports are one of the major sources of innovation for vehicles, and a huge part of performance is efficiency.



What's to understand? It's friendly competition. It's one of the oldest past times there is.


So I guess we haven't had any real problems since the beginning of man.

I've towed "really heavy" - not like Griff, but as much as you would want to tow with a Top Kick or an F450. The stock engines in these trucks will do as much as the chasiss will allow

I understand drag racing very well ----just don't understand people doing it with the tow rigs --pic below is one of the projects I am heavily invested in. I understand the reasoning behind this car-- its a vehicle with a singular mission

And no, when we are trying to force 600 hp and 900 lb/ft tq out of hay hauling trucks, and adding 6 motors to dedicated quarter million dollar sled pulling tractors when the max purse at an event might be 5k --- then yes, that's an indicator that some of us are out of problems

[sore shoulder]

. If you ever towed anything really heavy you would understand this. Also, performance sports are one of the major sources of innovation for vehicles, and a huge part of performance is efficiency.



What's to understand? It's friendly competition. It's one of the oldest past times there is.


So I guess we haven't had any real problems since the beginning of man.

I've towed "really heavy" - not like Griff, but as much as you would want to tow with a Top Kick or an F450. The stock engines in these trucks will do as much as the chasiss will allow

I understand drag racing very well ----just don't understand people doing it with the tow rigs --pic below is one of the projects I am heavily invested in. I understand the reasoning behind this car-- its a vehicle with a singular mission

And no, when we are trying to force 600 hp and 900 lb/ft tq out of hay hauling trucks, and adding 6 motors to dedicated quarter million dollar sled pulling tractors when the max purse at an event might be 5k --- then yes, that's an indicator that some of us are out of problems

So you question the reasoning and validity of a vehicle that can actually do a days work, then show a picture of an entirely frivolous car?

Why would you even care if someone wants to soup up their pickup, or have an issue with it?

What righteous purpose does that dragster serve that makes it any more valid than the pickup?

[Streetstar]

What righteous purpose does that dragster serve that makes it any more valid than the pickup?

When you hit the loud pedal , you can see God for 3.87 seconds --sounds pretty righteous to me


The F-250 is designed to pull things like this to the track, not be on the track.
SS, you seem like a reasonable enough, educated sort (and not a hillbilly) --- but the diesel "track truck" phenomenon has brought an entirely new breed of hillbilly to the track (much like fans of purple , extended swingarm drag bikes ) -- people in trashed out 10 year old Dodge Cummins' (usually with pipes extending through the bed) with a bit too much tune on them or turbo's that are stupid size that break all the time and litter the track with their garbage and fluids --- then legitimate racers have to wait for the bumpkins to get pulled off and all the antifreeze/oil/clutch disc parts - whatever to get cleaned up so we can resume activity

(all of which have precious little to do with extracting 3 or 4 extra mpg's out of a JEep though )

[sore shoulder]

There are many of us who disagree with that "coal rolling" Cummins crowd you are talking about. They are the new ricer with a wing crowd. We have a deep disdain of the billowing black clouds of smoke all over town that are just obnoxious and immature and is not power being made, it's power being wasted, and is pretty much raw fuel being spewed out the stacks (something else I personally don't care for). A bit of smoke at the track as it spools, then cleaning up after the launch is the goal. Making usable HP in a daily driver that doesn't smoke out 4 lanes if you go too deep in the pedal. Well tuned compound turbos that allow higher boost with lower temps and better drive-ability. The interesting thing is, that's basically what all the new trucks have gone to.

As far as littering the track, I've seen a lot of engines and trannies come apart in my day long before diesels were seen there. My first memories of the drag strip was as a tyke with my dad in 1970 and seeing an engine grenade. In the late 80's a guy standing next to me near the line took part of a blower in the chest and was airlifted out. Last year the only car that came apart when I was at the track was a gasser that puked a tranny and fluid all over both lanes after it lost control and ricocheted down the track barely missing the other car.

Now, I do have some very deep hill billy roots, but that's another story.

Otherwise, your comment about legitimate racers seems a bit elitist.

[Streetstar]

Now, I do have some very deep hill billy roots, but that's another story.

Otherwise, your comment about legitimate racers seems a bit elitist.

AFA my hillbilly comment -- I have Okie roots and have a lot of Cajun relatives -- was just having this discussion a day or 2 ago ---- my interpretation of hillbillies as it went, is a mixture of races and nationalities who eventually formed something of a community (or many communities, like indian tribes almost) - and wanted no part of the world growing up around them (more McCoy than Hatfield I think) -- Okies are hillbillies with a little bit of ambition who set out for Californee in search of ....... well,whatever, but due to the dustbowl, poverty , famine like conditions, Okies settled down about halfway there ----- Cajuns are the same as Okies, except they are French Canadian -- they made it down the Mississippi Delta to their goal, decided it wasn't for them, and took to the hills again ---- the debutante French were the Creole

So since hillbilly was the wrong word (no disrespect was intended, I meant to say white trash, but held back --- you hit the nail on the head with your comment about it being a "ricer mentality" except for country kids
-- I was talking with my drag racing partner about just this thread an hour ago , and while we both agreed that there are legitimate sportsmen in the Diesel truck crowd --- far too many fit the Country Ricer mold. you know the type --- the roofing contractor who just got a big paycheck who decides to put 10k into the truck

my comment sounded elitist because it was elitist --- pure drag racing is --- it separates the pretenders pretty quickly. A lot of sports are that way ------

allow me to make an analogy and compare it to shooting 1911's that you may or may not agree with ------ A pure drag car is like a beautiful, purposeful, race gun -- totally impractical outside of competition, but pretty darn cool in its preferred environment
--that 10-12 second 3/4 ton pickup is like a stock Springfield Range Officer , it has some respectable quarter mile times and great performance, but it aint a race gun ------
guys in stuff-box hay hauler pickups who spend a couple of paychecks on them is more akin to the dude with a stock Rock Island 1911 , then adds a Caspian slide to it, a compensator, --does not really fit it properly, and then to cap it all off, tops it with a sweet $70 red dot ! -- and is one step away from holding it sideways like a gangsta (I have a Rock Island btw --and love it for what its made for) --- its akin to the guys that spend 20k on a sweet 4 wheeler to take to the dunes

My viewpoint ---- and it does sound like, aside from a little bit of tone and inflection, we are close to being on the same page ---- I have also been around the sport for a while and wish the "Dodge kids" would get a 13 second Nova and learn how to do it the right way for a while before stepping up.
Its tough now though -- the old 13 second Nova or Malibu used to be a "tough car" -- now we have V6 Mustangs that can get darn close to that off the showroom - just pay $419 a month for xxx# of years --- the bar has been set so high that the old school hot rodding stuff, like small block stroker motors and mildly tuned 454's -- are taking a back seat to the guy who has the credit to buy a new SS Camaro and hit the track for testn tune Fridays , not to mention the trucks we have been discussing --- plus even the 40 year old guys have the "extreme- energy drink" mentality and makes fun of the kid in a ugly '75 Nova running 13's ---but chances are that kid might stay in the spprt long term and find himself able to build a car like mine a little later on down the line -- nothing feels better than busting down big barriers, -- the 7 second barrier, the 200mph barrier, and on and on

--- I digress --- I should cut and past this to an amateur hot rodding forum rather than a leverguns forum, but I do think Old Savage will get some solid utility out of his Jeep if he sent it to me and I will transplant the Big Chief/BBC based engine into that Patriot, as we have just "upgraded"(downgraded?-remains to be seen ) to a HAAEMMMI !!?? (hardcore dodge people are funny) - oh well, the Big Chief setup was getting seriously dated

Sore --- are you close enough to Denver to have been down the Lakewood track? --the one across 25 from the little Jet Ski lake -- I haven't hit that track, but have hit the Motocross track nestled in ther e numerous times --- I told my wife when tornado hysteria settles down, we are moving to Denver

[sore shoulder]

Yes, that's Bandimere Speedway, pretty famous I thought, lol. And I definitely know of the dirt track, they have really been doing a lot of work there last couple years. I'm not near it, but go there as often as I can and pass it frequently in my travels, I'm about an hour and 30 minutes and 4000ft up in the mountains.

Just to give a little more perspective, a guy here in CO that I know and respect quite a bit for his contributions to the sport has a 7.3 Powerstroke that runs in the high 10's. He has a lot of money in to the motor and a lot of time in to the tuning and parts he has fabricated, a lot of them on the 3D printers he sells. Full size F250 Super Duty 4x4 that he can daily drive, passes emmisions, and has laid down over 1000HP on the dyno using a couple stages of nitrous, around 800 on fuel IIRC, and will get the same or better mileage as a stocker. When he stages the smoke is pretty minimal as his compound turbos clean up quite well, and barely a haze down the track once he launches. Now, I'm nowhere near that in power, I don't have that kind of disposable income these days, but what I do have was tuned very carefully by a good friend of mine who agreed with my concept of a clean running truck that drives like a stocker but has the power on tap when needed.

As far as Denver, and the Front Range in general, not sure what kind of culture you like but, it's become a hardcore leftist metropolitan base. The recent gun control and gay marriage legislation is a prime example. Not trying to talk you out of it, just pointing out something you may not have considered.

[Old Savage]

One of the interesting things here is that you never know what you are going to find out/learn as the thread takes on a life of its own. Very interesting fellows.

[sore shoulder]

I have also been around the sport for a while and wish the "Dodge kids" would get a 13 second Nova and learn how to do it the right way for a while before stepping up.

Some of what you wrote here brought me to something I have thought about lately. When I was a kid I spent a lot of time cruising junkyards for parts. I remember going with my dad when I was really little, he even got me my own 1/4" drive socket set when I was 4 (which I then used to disassemble parts from his 32 coupe project ) Some of those junkyards covered acres and acres with many eras and generations of vehicles. Those are pretty much gone now with the scrap prices being so high. My son and I went to the pick and pull a couple times when he was in high school and I'm glad I got to do that with him. I doubt he will do that with his kids. Not sure how big a deal it is on the grand scheme of things, but going to the junkyard with my son was kind of a meaningful thing, watching him peer into older vehicles he had never seen, asking what things were, commenting on how a vehicle could get so smashed up and if the driver lived through it.