Bought an 1886 Bad Photo's and Range Report

[Pop Watts]

Well I finally got my hands on an original 1886 in 45-70.

It is not the prettiest rifle because the blueing is all gone and case colours non existent. There are a couple of small repairs on the rear timber as well, but the bore is good. It is a standard rifle with full magazine and Octagon barrel and rocky mountain front sight. Serial number puts it at 1887 manufacture.

1886's are very hard to find here in Australia and I have looked at several over the past two years that were in worse shape than this and almost twice the price. Believe it or not, this is the first one in 45-70 that I came across. Most 1886's I see in Australia are in 38-56. So all up I am very happy with the ugly duckling.

Off to the range. I am in Sydney so it was off to the 50m indoor range for me.

I loaded 405 grain projectiles over 29 grains of ADI AR2207. This is an Australian powder that fits into the correct burning rate for use in black powder rifles without creating pressure spikes. No Chrono used but muzzle velocity would be just under 1300 fps. Thanks for your great posts on this subject Kirk.

There are some picks of a couple of targets I shot and what consistently happened was that the cases that I used cotton filler in produced groups of about 42mm (about 1 5/8") while those shot at the same time on the same range with me in the same frame of mind but without filler shot at around 73mm (2 9/16"). Please excuse my conversion figures if they are off a little.

So far I have only fired 60 rounds, was too excited to shoot it to slug the bore or get too technical, so I think there is potential to get this gun shooting better yet.

One thing was the mess that the cotton wadding made at the indoor range. Avery time I pulled the trigger a great chunk of singed cotton went down range with little pieces drifting about and slowly falling like snow. So I loaded a few more rounds but pushed a cardboard wad onto the powder to hold it against the primer and seated the projectile above that. I am worried about this set up and would appreciate your responses because the cardboard wad is about 3/16" thick and fits tightly inside the case. Then there is an air gap of maybe 3/8" to the base of the projectile. I am worried I have created an explosive chamber in the case so will not shoot them until I do some more research.

So, thanks for listening.

Pop.

[JohndeFresno]

Cool, Pop! (Hey, isn't that a kid's treat?)

Anyway - I took some liberties and guessed at your gun and load, based upon common data. This is what QuickLoad give me:
.45-70 Gov't. SAAMI Max pressure = 28,000 psi
(You must determine what is safe for older gun).

For a 26 inch barrel with a groove diameter of 0.456 in. ("caliber"), this load:
.457 sized (11.61mm) Lyman 457193 405 gr. Lead Flat Nose
Overall Cartridge Length 2.550" (64.77 mm)

ADI AR 2207 29.0 gr., 61.4% fill, 89.39% powder burned
Psi 12,351 (very safe numbers for newer standard .45-70's)
Muzzle Velocity 1349 fps, Muzzle Energy 1637 ft. lbs.

[FatJackDurham]

Looks pretty enough to me. Do you know what year it was made? 45-70 is such a fun round....

[Aussie Chris]

Good find on the '86! And a second year one that is shooting well so far!

Yeah it is hard to find em in 45-70. Most I see are 38-56 and 40-82.

Can you send me any load data you have on the ADI powders for these old rifles?
I have only been using trail boss but if 2207 works well I would like to try it.

Chris

[Sixgun]

Pop,
Looks like a [/nice] one! Plenty of nice aged patina.

Stay away from fillers and wads. Sometimes these things create more problems than what they are worth such as ringed chambers. For light loads, use a powder with a high nitro content such as Unique or 5744. These powders have no need for fillers of any type. Not sure on the burn rate of the powder you are using but at 29 gr. for 1300, it might be OK without fillers, especially in warm weather.

Ya done good! To me 1886's are the epitome of Winchester models.--------------------------Sixgun

[Rus Ler]

G'day Pop,
I'm using the same loads in my Pedersoli Sharps and Chiappa 1886 out to 500yds at Little River for Buffalo shoots and 13 gns of Trail Boss and 350 gn bullets for Pat Garrett match. Easy on the shoulder and target plates.
Cheeers,
Rus Ler

[Hombre]

Thanks for the report, Pop. I find it very interesting!

Most 1886's I see in Australia are in 38-56

Most I see are 38-56 and 40-82.

Have you guys ever thought of why you very seldom find a Winchester 86 in caliber 45-70 in your place and that the ones you find are in 38-56 and 40-82? I am curious because in my place (Sweden) it is almost impossible to find one in 45-70 and even in 38-56 and 40-82. The ones we find here are in caliber 45-90 and 50-110.

Best,
Stefan
Sweden

[Pop Watts]

[b]Hombre[/b], there is not much in the way of dangerous game in Australia. You could easily kill a rabid Koala with a 38-56
When the 1886 was king we did not even have Water Buffalo in Australia because they were introduced later. As a note, even most 1892's in Australia are in 32-20 and less are in 44-40 and 38-40. If you find a good 1886 in 50-110 I will be willing to send up an old 38-56 beater and swap you for it. By the way, I used to work for a Swedish based company - Deve Lifts, but now have changed sides and work for the Swiss at Schindler.

[b]Rus Ler[/b], do you use any filler in your loads?

[b]Chris[/b], I will send you an e-mail in the next day or so. You have a 30wcf you bought off Gordon don't you?

Thanks, Pop.

[peter richards]

That's a great find Pop, I to would be careful with fillers. I run Trail Boss in mine.

[M. M. Wright]

Great find Pop! Ya done good.

For filler in my 45-70s or 45-90 I sometimes use a tuft of Dacron fiberfill. Not enough to fill the case, just a tuft to hold the powder against the flash hole. Of course the solution is to just fill the case with ffg and one of those card wads under your bullet.

[Aussie Chris]

Gday Pop, yeah I got my old 30wcf from him. Have not been shooting it as much as I should, too busy chasing sambar with my 444 Marlin haha!!!

Ill PM you my email.

I always have a giggle when I go see my mate in his apartment in Schindlers lift. I know that sounds sadistic but it's just a rather funny coincidence of names!

And Rus Ler, if you see a guy at Little River with around 6 Winchester 94's and a crazy looking 7615 it's probably me. Shooting the 94's at the gong at 500m always gets a few looks, especially hitting it with open sights

Chris

[Pete44ru]

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Pop, I think you doth protest too much - that's a righteous rifle you have there, and I wouldn't be too worried about the groups.

( BTW, use Trail Boss Powder - +1 )

I like it just fine, as it is........................ CONGRATS !




.

[Marc]

Pop, that looks like a good rifle to me! It looks to be about in the same condition as my antique Winchesters. You don't need a pristine museum piece to enjoy them! I can't see much of the rifle when I am looking down the sights anyway.

I just ran across this article which discusses the causes of chamber ringing. You should read it before you shoot those loads with the wad! http://texas-mac.com/Shooting_Short_Cas ... Facts.html

[JohndeFresno]

Pop,

I have located and loaded ADI's 4th and 5th (newest) Handloader's Guides to this address (click on):
https://www.box.com/s/7fqdms15u46yp1t5v17w

It's over 5MB in size so it might take a while to download this Zip file. I found loads for the 38-55, 45-70, and 50-140 in the manual, at a glance. There are a lot of useful looking loads with the ADI powders.

John

[KirkD]

Cotton filler will definitely give you a blast of cotton bits out front every time you pull the trigger. It's not a problem at my outdoor range, but I can see it would make a mess inside. Be very careful with Trail Boss. It is a very fast powder that gives a huge pressure spike. If you use Trail Boss, be sure to use only published loads and keep them moderate. Here's a pressure trace for Trail Boss in a 45-70 ..



Even for a very moderate 1,000 fps with a 500 grain bullet, the peak pressure is a whopping 32,000 to 36,000 psi. Not for original Black Powder guns.

I have found that most powders will give you a big difference in pressure and velocity depending upon whether the cartridge is tipped up before firing or tipped down. This is why I use low density filler. If you want to stay away from filler, but still want normal velocities, I have found 5744 to be the best powder.

As for putting a card over your powder, it is not as bad as using Trail Boss, but it will still give you a slight increase in pressure at the neck area where the base of the bullet it. Sherman Bell did some excellent tests using various fillers as well as a a cork wad sitting on top of the powder, with a big airspace between the wad and the base of the bullet (The Double Gun Journal, Vomue 22, Issue 2, Summer 2011). It seems to be well within the normal smokeless pressures, but I would prefer to use cotton, which gives a very low pressure increase, and the increase seems to be mostly due to more complete burning of the powder.

[Thunder50]

I wouldn't shoot the rounds with just the card wad, personally. I have loaded with a card wad above the powder, but then, I use corn meal grits as a filler the rest of the way, so when the bullet is seated, it just compresses the grits.

I think if you just have the card wad, when you shoot, the card wad will impact the base of the bullet and the bullet will act as a bore obstruction and possible "ring" the chamber. You don't want any airspace when you use the wad.

The dacron filler would be better, but I would put enough in so that when you seat the bullet, it will touch the dacron filler.

[KirkD]

I was just looking at Sherman Bell's results. He took pressure readings both at the midpoint of the chamber, as well as at the neck near where the base of the bullet was. He did not test corn meal, but he did test cream of wheat filler. It gave one of the highest peak pressures, quite a bit higher than just using a card (.135" thick). In fact, the card placed over the powder gave the lowest peak pressure of all, surprisingly. The cream of wheat filler gave a peak pressure that was 6 thousand psi higher than a simple card placed above the powder. I use filler, but prefer one that is not very dense and highly compressible. Cotton and Kapok were among the lowest peak pressures.

[JohndeFresno]

Excellent stuff, gents. Thank you. Saved. (That is, the postings were archived; I was saved 40 years ago.)

[Pop Watts]

Thank you all for the responses.
PM's have been sent.
I appreciate you guys sharing your knowledge with me.
I am loving this 1886 and hope to get it out goat shooting in June.
Maybe the old girl will make some meat for me.
Pop.