Cast bullet load in 35 Remington

[earlmck]

Yesterday was 35 Remington day at the range. Here's the lineup:

35rifles.jpg

Remington 141, Savage 99, Marlin 336A, Marlin 336CS.

The challenge with cast bullets in the 35 Rem is the short neck and the virtually nonexistent throat. Here's a beautiful 180 grain LBT bullet I use in 357 revolvers. But because of no throat in the rifles it has to be seated so deeply that the base extends somewhat below the base of the neck, which has been detrimental to accuracy with a cast bullet.

35.180cast.jpg

So I broke down and purchased a Lyman 358315 which is designed for the 35 Remington: long bore-diameter nose lets you seat the bullet far enough out that only the gas-check extends into the powder room.

35seatedandbullet.jpg

35loaded205cast.jpg

Since I started using the 358315 I'd been getting fair results -- 2.5 to 3" 100 yd groups with normal (1700 fps or so) velocities. But velocity spreads were wide (as in +/- 50 to 80 fps) and I've been scratching the old noggin trying to figure ways to tighten up the velocity spreads. Part of my problem is my brass: years ago I bought a 500-piece batch of once-fired stuff. So even separating by brand (Remington and Federal) I have a modest amount of case-to-case variation, especially in regards to neck tension after sizing. So my first effort was to run all the necks into a 357 carbide size die (this oversizes them a little) and then run them over the Lyman "M" 35 expander. This helped and I got spreads of +/- 40 to 50 fps).

I've long considered fillers in my cast bullet loads to be a last resort. I finally gave in and started using filler (I use that granulated plastic stuff that is intended as a shot buffer when loading steel shot waterfowl loads). I used an old pistol powder measure for the filler which does nice with these small amounts of fill. Velocity spreads immediately tightened up considerably. Best results seem to be when the filler was just enough to cause light compression on seating the bullet. Here's how this looks when loading:

35withpowder.jpg

35powderandfiller.jpg

At this point I have run the Lyman "M" die in just far enough to give a bell which allows the bullet to be pressed a bit into the neck and start straight into the seat die without needing to be held.

35readytoseat.jpg

So far all my testing had been with the Remington 141 which seems to shoot everything at least halfway decent and is wearing a nice Burris 2X -7X I got from DixieBoy. The scope definitely helps these old eyes shoot a group. Now time to try promising loads in some other rifles.

The Marlin 336CS has a 20" bbl and microgroove rifling. The Savage 99 has 20" bbl and conventional 6-groove rifling. The Marlin 336A and the Remington 141 have 24" bbls and 6-groove rifling.

The Lyman bullet was 210 grains from water-quenched wheelweights; it casts up about .3585 and I ran it through a .359 sizer which just rounded off the mold seam and allowed a little to sploosh onto the neck and be a little messy. CCI large rifle primers #200. 5-shot groups, 100 yards. 90 degrees, gentle Oregon breeze

1) 20 grains IMR 4759 + 7.5 grains filler.
Remington 141: 1765 +/- 15 fps, 5/1.1"; 5/1.75"
Marlin 336CS: 1710 +/- 5 fps, 5/2"
Marlin 336A: 1730+/- 25 fps, 5/2.5" with 4 of these in 1"
Savage 99: 1700 +/- 10 fps; 5/4"

2) 31 grains Alliant Varmint + 6.75 grains filler
Remington 141: 1770 +/- 10 fps, 5/2" with 4 of these in 1"
Marlin 336CS: 1740 +/- 12 fps, 5/3"
Marlin 336A: 1760 +/- 25 fps, 5/3" with 4 of these in 1.5"
Savage 99: 1720 +/- 25 fps, 5/5"

3) 31 grains H4895 + 4 grains filler
Remington 141: 1750 +/- 20 fps, 5/2" with 4 of these in 1.5"
And I didn't load enough of these to test in the other rifles

Looks to me like anything that fills the case at 80% or better, holds a little filler, and gives 1700 to 1750 fps will have decent results. Next try for me will be a case full of 4350 and see if I can get away from the filler.

[6pt-sika]

Very nice !

In the two Marlin's I had set up for cast in 35 REM I used the RCBS 35-200GC and the Ranch Dog 359-190GC . But if my memory still serves I think I used SR4756 .

[Don McDowell]

Sometimes something as simple as changing the bullet lube can really make a difference, and sometimes a good case annealing will work wonders.

[Bigahh]

Earl,

You are getting to be a Photo expert ! Nice Post, and some Beautiful Rifles you have there.

[O.S.O.K.]

Load them to standard pressure and velocity for that weight and see what happens. Also, if you're not already - bell the cases before you seat the boolits. Crimp in a separte operation.

You may also try Lee Liquid Alox lube - it works great for me.

[Rusty]

It looks like he's using LBT lube now. I don't think it gets much better than that.

[Bill in Oregon]

Earl, I'm just tickled you were able to get out yesterday before the wet gloom of "Oregon sunshine" descended again! That Remington and 4759 sure gave you some nice groups. I'd be tickled with them. Would it be worth playing with a Lee factory crimp die?

[Chuck 100 yd]

Nice post pard !!
Here is what I found worked with my .35. Not trying for hot loads, just accuracy.

Running at about 1600 fps IIRC. 50 yd.

[Ben_Rumson]

Thanks for a most impressive range report!

[earlmck]

From your comments I can see I forgot to give some info. Rusty is right -- the lube is LBT Blue. And I did a lot of messing around with crimp strength. For my rifles and this mold if you use the crimp groove the bullet engraves into the rifling far enough to require a pretty good slam to chamber the round. Kind of a nuisance, but that was my first decent velocity uniformity and group doing it that way and using the Lee factory crimp die. But it is a pain to have to work that hard to chamber a round and then it requires force to extract if you don't fire it off. So I played more with correct-for-rifle lengths and when I did that, the harder the crimp the worse the results. So for these I crimped just enough to iron the bell out smooth. Seating a little deeper and trying different crimp strengths over the shoulder is something I haven't yet done.

For some reason the 35 Remington has given me more trouble than other cartridges getting a cast load I could be happy with. I kept getting mediocre groups and wild shot-to-shot velocity swings. I guess that's why I got all excited and let you guys know when I finally had some success. It's only been in this past year that I caught up into the late 20th century and got a chronograph with skyscreens so I could check velocities as I shoot groups. Until then I didn't realize how much of my accuracy problems with these loads were a result of inconsistent velocities. Once I got to chasing the real problem, getting some decent results hasn't been that tough.

Not trying for hot loads, just accuracy.

Looks like you've got her behaving nicely, Chuck. What is your load for that one?

[Chuck 100 yd]

earlmck , That load was the Lyman 358015 200 gr. cast of
30:1 over 21 gr. IMR 4198 for 1413 fps.
It shot very accurately and the soft bullet would easily engrave into the rifling so chambering and or extracting a loaded round was easy.

[Bill in Oregon]

Bump, just on general principles.

[yooper2]

Earl,

I have an old Remington 14 and have had great success with the Lee 358-200-RF gr bullet. It is a knock off of a RCBS design. If you would like to try it I'd be happy to send some your way.


Eric

[earlmck]

I had forgot all about working with all my 35 Rems at one time and making this report nearly 7 years ago. And that must have been about the last time I experimented with loads: that load with the "Varmint" powder plus a little filler is what I use. But several years ago I got one of those nifty 6-cavity Lee moulds for their copy of the RCBS 200 grainer (you're right about it being a fine bullet, Eric) and have been using it happily ever since.

Sheesh! I haven't shot those 35's in months and months. Gonna' have to get 'em out and blow the dust out of the barrels.

And I never did try finding a powder that would give the "right" velocity with a slightly compressed powder charge. Since those days I have acquired QuickLoad for asking those sorts of questions "on paper" so to speak. And when I tried it just now it looks like good old 4831 would be just the ticket. And I have a bunch of that. Hmmm....