An Old Shooter Breaks Long Silence- A Final Update

Shasta · Post by **Shasta** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 8:58 pm

I recently bought a very tired-looking old Model 1873 Winchester .44-40 made in 1880. It had zero metal finish, very dry and cracking buttstock & forend, a wrong rear sight, and a broken front sight. The action was stiff and scratchy, the trigger pull a heavy six pounds, but the attraction to me was the 28" barrel's bore, which was certainly not perfect but showed very strong rifling for such an otherwise poor rifle. I felt I could get it shooting with a lot of elbow grease, which can be a pretty cheap commodity for a retired guy! Besides, it was only $600! Here is what I started with:

Upon tearing the rifle down to clean out all the age-old crud, I discovered possibly why the bore was still so good. At some long ago time someone had installed a bushing in the bolt face for the firing pin. They did a very good job with the machine work, but the bushing was too long, the hole too small, and it would not allow the firing pin to protrude through the bolt face. Since the rifle could no longer fire, I believe it was relegated to a barn or shed, where over many years the outside acquired its crusty appearance and the bore remained unused. I'm not sure why they didn't just re-do the repair properly, maybe it was getting too expensive to be worth it?

Thanks to the skills of my machinist brother, the bushing was re-drilled and shortened, and the firing pin once again could do its job. I temporarily reinstalled the bolt and firing pin to test a primed empty case, and I got a satisfying POP!
The extractor broke in two when I removed the bolt, so I bought a new USA-made reproduction extractor off Ebay. It needed a lot of fitting as it was oversize in just about every dimension, but I got it functioning with some dummy rounds. I also discovered that the magazine spring was too short and did not push the last two cartridges back far enough to load properly, so i ordered and installed a new one.
The buttstock & forend were treated to several applications of boiled linseed oil, which darkened them and softened the hard dry wood to what I felt was at least a useable state. I replaced the sights and added a modern Marble's tang sight too. Its shiny blueing looks out of place, but hey, this is going to be a shooter.
I glued a thin spring-steel shim into the full-cock notch on the hammer, loosened the mainspring tension, and thus reduced the trigger pull to a more manageable four pounds. Finally, the rifle was reassembled and once more shootable.

I've never had a .44-40 before, but planned on it when opportunity presented, so over the past few years I have gathered up a set of used dies and bought a couple boxes of W-W brass. I have an RCBS 44-200-CM bullet mould that didn't work out for my Marlin Cowboy .44 Magnum rifle, but the bullets it casts look perfect for the .44-40. I was a little disappointed when I slugged the bore on the Winchester and found it to be .431" as I expected closer to .429". The RCBS bullets drop from the mould at .429"-.430" so are a bit small, but it's all I have for now and I went with it. The past weeks of rainy, cold weather were happily spent getting the rifle and test loads of ammunition ready, and I was delighted to see a mostly clear, cool, and sunny day when I awoke this morning. Today is the day!

The local public shooting area is on Bureau of Land Management land, and was already crowded with shooters when I arrived at 9:00 A.M. Still, I was able to get a spot and set up my portable shooting bench and a 50 meter target board. Darn, I forgot my camera for the big event! Oh well...
Not fully trusting the old Winchester to be sound, I lashed it down to my bench and tied a string off to the trigger so I could remote-fire the first shot. After cautioning the shooters on either side of me to stand back, I loaded a round, stood well back, and yanked the string. THE RIFLE EXPLODED INTO A MILLION PIECES!!
Naw, I just said that to create a little excitement for you

. The rifle did just what it is supposed to do, with no sign of problems at all. I was really excited to get on with shooting this old Winchester.

I had five different loads, straight out of my loading manuals and designed for the older weak-actioned rifles. All were loaded with Winchester Large Pistol primers and the RCBS 44-22-CM 200 grain bullet sized at .430". Worst of the lot was 5.5 grains of TiteGroup, which not only would not stay on my 8x11" target, it would not even stay on my 2'x4' cardboard backing! A charge of 25.0 grains Reloader 7 shot a 1 1/2" x 3" horizontally strung group, and 8.0 grains of SR 4756 shot the same size group but instead was vertically strung. Of course, I had to try some black powder too. Goex FFg at 35.0 grains shot a well-rounded 6" group, not very accurate but it sure was fun to shoot! The absolute best load was something of a surprise to me as I have never had especially good luck with Trail Boss powder. After firing five shots with 6.0 grains of Trail Boss, I looked through my spotting scope and was delighted to see two dead centers, two more just a half-inch out, and of course I had to throw one flyer an inch and a half out:

Not bad at all for a 132 year-old Winchester!
The only real problem I had was that my new extractor quit working early in the testing and I had to extract fired cartridges with a small screwdriver. In riding up over the cartridge rim like it's supposed to do, it seems the extractor has taken an upward bowed set, like maybe the metal is too soft. It won't snap down on the cartridge rim for extraction. I am going to try and straighten then harden it to give it some spring, and if that doesn't work I will find an original replacement extractor.

I'm looking forward to shooting this old rifle a lot more!!

SHASTA

C. Cash · Post by **C. Cash** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 9:17 pm

Excellent!...still chuckling at the "blowup!"

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 9:25 pm

Cool !

I've never owned a Winchester or old Marlin in 44-40 just a couple semi recent manufacture Marlin's that use the same octagon barrels they use on the 1894CB 44 MAG's .

FWIW , you can get a pretty decent mold from Ranch Dog in the semi near future . He'll be selling a 432-240GC mold soon thats shot nicely in a 44 MAG and a 444 Marlin .

I think his 6 hole molds are $60 plus shipping . And of course you'll need a set of Lee handles for the 6 cavity mold .

pwl44m · Post by **pwl44m** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 9:38 pm

That is totally awesome Shasta. Makes Me want to get my 73 out and give it a whirl, althought Mine is 32-20- or is it 38-40 I don't know I forgot. Anyhow great report, wish I could get My Marlin to shoot like, and I might , haven't tried the new bullets yet.
Don't forget , should U decide to go with an original extractor let Me know, I have one lined up.
Perry
P.S. what !!! no after Pics

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 12:55 am

Great find!

olyinaz · Post by **olyinaz** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 1:48 am

Well hot dog! Great job and hope to see some more targets with other bullet/load combos if you're willing.

Did you affect the heat treatment on that extractor while fitting it perhaps? Just curious!

Oly

chadbr · Post by **chadbr** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 2:44 am

Great job! That's going to be a great shooter when you get all the kinks out.

Chad

Nath · Post by **Nath** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 3:04 am

Most excellent work, good for you Sir.

I enjoyed that. Just think how that old gun can/could stillfeed a family. Just as god intended

Nath.

gamekeeper · Post by **gamekeeper** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 3:53 am

Shasta, Excellent Post, I reckon that's what retirement is for, helping retired Winchesters get back to business..

kimwcook · Post by **kimwcook** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 9:56 am

game keeper wrote:Shasta, Excellent Post, I reckon that's what retirement is for, helping retired Winchesters get back to business..

If that's what's awaiting me after retiring I'm going to have to look into doing that sooner than later.

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:09 am

Yep - Old fella's STILL have a fire in the basement, even though there may be snow on the roof. .

.

kimwcook · Post by **kimwcook** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:17 am

I had an avalanche as I have no more snow either.

Mike D. · Post by **Mike D.** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:22 am

Nice job, Tim. I have had a few '73s over the years; my favorite was a nice .38-40. I actually knocked over a few blacktails with that old gun using Winchester factory SP ammo.

Shasta · Post by **Shasta** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 12:25 pm

pwl44m wrote:That is totally awesome Shasta. Makes Me want to get my 73 out and give it a whirl, althought Mine is 32-20- or is it 38-40 I don't know I forgot. Anyhow great report, wish I could get My Marlin to shoot like, and I might , haven't tried the new bullets yet.
Don't forget , should U decide to go with an original extractor let Me know, I have one lined up.
Perry
P.S. what !!! no after Pics

Perry, I think I would like to take you up on that extractor offer, shoot me an email with the particulars.
As for an "after" picture, it doesn't look much different, but here you go:

For olyinaz- I don't know if I affected whatever hardening may have been in that replacement extractor. I did stone it on both sides by hand (no grinding) so it didn't get heated, and I reshaped the nose with a Dremel stone, again being careful not to heat it. The extractor did not feel like it was very hard during stoning. Perhaps it was only surface hardened, but I doubt it. It was blued, but that was all removed during the stoning process. I will try to put some temper into it, but just to be safe I'm going to get that original extractor from Perry. I KNOW it will work.

SHASTA

pwl44m · Post by **pwl44m** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 12:39 pm

Looks good Tim, I will call the Guy today. He lives in Palermo, not too far. He only wants to trade for the piece so we will have to see what He wants. He says He has 3 or 4 of them, will see what He has.
Perry

M. M. Wright · Post by **M. M. Wright** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 6:07 pm

Awesome job guy! That last picture sure looks good after the oil on the wood. And I am so happy you included the black powder loads. My soft spot.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 6:25 pm

Shasta,
Nice '73! I did have an early 4 digit first model that had the same bore condition as yours. It shot OK. Just make your bullets soft and keep 'em under 1200. You might have to add a gas check. Also, check the crown as many of these are worn smooth from lots of cleaning with dirty rods.

One thing about the early '73's. (or later ones that have been abused) They are nortorious for excessive headspace issues. The soft steel combined with frontier use wore them out quick.

I shot a 28 in pistol caliber with my 3rd model last year. That 5 pound trigger pull sure did not help much---I got lucky---------Sixgun

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:31 pm

Good on ya! Keep at it,, you'll find that "perfect" load. What Sixgun said!

Shasta · Post by **Shasta** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:47 pm

Sixgun wrote:Shasta,
Nice '73! I did have an early 4 digit first model that had the same bore condition as yours. It shot OK. Just make your bullets soft and keep 'em under 1200. You might have to add a gas check. Also, check the crown as many of these are worn smooth from lots of cleaning with dirty rods.

One thing about the early '73's. (or later ones that have been abused) They are nortorious for excessive headspace issues. The soft steel combined with frontier use wore them out quick.

I shot a 28 in pistol caliber with my 3rd model last year. That 5 pound trigger pull sure did not help much---I got lucky---------Sixgun

According to my Saeco Lead Hardness Tester, the alloy I used for these bullets rate as "wheelweights", which is just slightly softer than 20:1. I do intend to try going softer still, but I can't get too carried away as the bullets are already a little small in diameter. I intentionally did not use my chronograph for these initial loads as I did not know what sort of accuracy to expect and did not want to chance a wild bullet wiping out the screens! The Trail Boss loads that shot so well are rated at just 800 FPS. As for gas checks, I want to stay away from them as they have gotten too expensive for a cheapskate like me.

I examined the crown with a 10X jewelers loupe and it does not have noticible cleaning rod wear, but does have rust pitting, which looks a lot worse under that loupe than it does with the naked eye.
The headspacing is very tight, in fact closing the lever with a round in the chamber requires noticibly more pressure on the lever to achieve complete closure.

For good silhouette shooting, you really need a light trigger, as you know. I shoot a Cimarron Uberti 1873 in .32-20, which I have the trigger down to two pounds. I gave it the same treatment as I did this old 44-40, namely glueing a thin shim into the full-cock notch on the hammer so that the hammer does not go as deeply into the notch. I use the steel from the card that my Lee Shaver globe sight inserts come on. Just a tiny piece an eighth of an inch tall and as wide as the hammer, glued in with JB Weld 5 minute epoxy. No harm to the hammer and that glued shim stays put. I had me a good shooting streak last fall and shot my way into Master class. I might be in over my head!

SHASTA

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 9:01 pm

You got yourself a very good deal. That bore looks very good in my books ..... I've shot a lot worse '73 that that and still got decent groups. Your group at 50 yards is good for that old rifle. Lube the sear/hammer notch with grease.

Old Ranger · Post by **Old Ranger** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:17 pm

Well done sir. I love to see old, but usable weapons come back on line so to speak. You have done an outstanding job with that weapon.

A thought on the extractor from an old retired smith...since it is showing signs of taking a set and being a might weak, and that you do have a line on a replacement.....there is an old trick I used when I had my shop to give steel a bit of spring to it. By getting the part into the shape you want, then hanging it by a small wire in your casting pot until the part is totally submerged. Leaving it there for 20 to 30 minutes will give a part this size enough time for the metal take the heat properly. Then remove it and quench it in old motor oil, of if you prefer, transmission fluid until cool. This will give the metal plenty of spring to it and will harden the exterior a slight bit. Not too much mind you, but it may improve your part until a replacement could be found that is more of a prope fit...

I can tell you are well versed in weapons care and rebuilding, thus I feel that you would not take offense from an oldman that once worked on them long ago giving a bit of his time. I know old guns, and those up to about 1980 something....after that they all look like something from another planet!

In fact, when I had my shop, I refused to work on those black plastic rifles! M1's, old Sharps and trapdoors were always welcome though

!

Again, good work on that piece. I salute you!!!

Wade

Shasta · Post by **Shasta** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:32 pm

Old Ranger,

Thanks for that tip, I will give it a try. Your timing couldn't be better as I am planning on running some more bullets this week! Our friend Perry has a line on an original extractor for me, but I still want to try and get this repo extractor working. It cost me $28 and I'm hoping to get at least some of my money's worth out of it!

SHASTA

1894c · Post by **1894c** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:45 am

Shasta--thank you for the post--nice old rifle, that's not silent any more--love the history, but really like hearing about the things that you did to get it ready to go...BANG...good info... :)

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 6:33 am

Shasta,
I learn something new everyday! Thats a super idea on the shim!!!!

I have several guns that are regular shooters but I don't want to stone 'em for obvious reasons.

As soon as I get home, that hammer on the 40-65 1886 is coming out!-----Sixgun

w30wcf · Post by **w30wcf** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 8:08 am

Shasta,
Nice work!

Thank you for sharing. The RL7 load is probably running over 1,400 f.p.s. In my 24" barrel it pushes a 215 gr bullet to 1,386 f.p.s. with good accuracy.

What is the groove diameter? I may have the proper diameter bullet that would fit your barrel, and if so, I'll send you some.

Sixgun,
Check the depth of the sear, then select a shim that will reduce the engagement to about .02" for starters.

w30wcf

Shasta · Post by **Shasta** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:29 pm

I took the old rifle out for another range session today. Still using the RCBS 44-200-CM bullet, I tried reducing the Trail Boss load to 5.5 gr. and it shot every bit as good as the 6.0 load pictured in the original post. Upping the Trail Boss to 6.5 gr. proved a disaster as bullets became widely scattered and only three of five even hit the target! I was amazed that just one grain of powder could make such a difference! SR 4756 powder is showing promise, but not like the Trail Boss. I also tried 8.0 gr. Unique, but it too apparently was too much as shots were so widely scattered I didn't even shoot a second target with it.

This particular bullet seems to work best at very slow velocities. I used my Pact chronograph today, but it has developed a glitch and will not give a readout. Guess I'll have to be brave and use my Ohler 35P to get some velocity readings. I just didn't want to chance damaging it with an uncertain rifle.

w30wcf- Thanks for your generous offer. When I get done wringing out this bullet, I have a Lyman to work with. What is the bullet you have in mind?

SHASTA

w30wcf · Post by **w30wcf** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:46 pm

Shasta,
Below are most of the bullets I use in my 44-40's.
Favorites for smokeless are 1 & 2. The 427098 (copy of the original 44-40 bullet) gets the nod for blackpowder or a capacity load of RL7.

For whatever reason, the 429666 does not shoot as well as the others in my rifle.

w30wcf

Shasta · Post by **Shasta** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 9:42 pm

This old '73 continues to amaze me. I was testing loads again this morning, this time using my chronograph. It tends to scatter shots from loads over 1,100 FPS, but likes slow ones. Here is a five shot target fired at 50 meters. Load was a 199 grain RCBS 44-200-CM bullet, 7.5 grains SR 4756 powder, and a Winchester Large Pistol primer. Basically a one inch group at a paltry 817 FPS:

Old Ranger- I followed your suggestion on heat treating the weak extractor in lead, then oil quenching. It did improve some and extracts dummy rounds just fine, but still fails more often than not on fired cases. The cases are easily removed from the chamber with a fingernail, so I know it's not a rough chamber or oversize brass. I think I will chance heating the extractor up and then water quenching. If it gets too brittle and breaks, oh well, it's not doing me much good the way it is!

SHASTA

w30wcf · Post by **w30wcf** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 8:24 am

Shasta,
Thank you for the update. Nice group.
Do you position the powder to the back of the case?

My best accuracy at original 44-40 ballistics has been with the slower powders....
Blue Dot, 2400, 4227, 4759.

Perhaps one of them would produce good groups at 1,300 f.p.s.(?)

w30wcf

Shasta · Post by **Shasta** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:00 am

w30wcf wrote:Shasta,
Thank you for the update. Nice group.
Do you position the powder to the back of the case?

My best accuracy at original 44-40 ballistics has been with the slower powders....
Blue Dot, 2400, 4227, 4759.

Perhaps one of them would produce good groups at 1,300 f.p.s.(?)

w30wcf

I did not consciously make an effort to position the powder to the rear of the case, but it is something I need to be more aware of, as it has helped accuracy in a couple of my other rifles.

I did try 17.0 grains of IMR 4227 with a Federal Large Pistol Magnum primer (from book Pet Loads). It gave 1,100 FPS but accuracy was very poor with one shot missing the target entirely.

It's good to know the rifle is capable of shooting tight groups, but I need to find some loads in the 1,300+ FPS range if I am to try a round of lever action silhouette shooting with this '73.

SHASTA

Old Ranger · Post by **Old Ranger** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:11 am

Well sir, going to a dull red with quick water quence might do the trick. If it gets too brittle, then at least you gave it a good go at it. But going too hot on such a small part would give a cause for worry....The heat in the lead trick works sometimes, and then it gives more spring than hardness. So now we know that it does require more hardness and you're onto the next level. I look forward to your progress with this project....Oh, and nice shooting too!!

Wade

Shasta · Post by **Shasta** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 4:51 pm

I think I finally licked my extractor problem! I filed the notch that catches the cartridge rim so it had a little sharper edge, then with the shop darkened so I could see it real good, I heated the extractor to a dull red and quickly quenched it in cold water. After reassembling the rifle I took it to the range and ran through 25 rounds of ammo with nary a hitch! It's finally working like it's supposed to.

SHASTA

1894c · Post by **1894c** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:20 pm

good stuff... :)

pwl44m · Post by **pwl44m** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:37 pm

Good stuff Shasta.Mine isn't going to quite so easy. I have a line on an extractor and a pair of link assemblies, lifter lever spring. Will still need a couple parts but maybe that will get it shooting. Hope it shoots as good as Yours seems to be.
Perry

w30wcf · Post by **w30wcf** » Fri Mar 23, 2012 6:59 am

Shasta,
Sorry to hear that the 4227 load did not work well for you.

Have you had a chance to find out what your rifle's groove diameter is?

According to a conversation that I had some time ago with George Madis, who wrote the Winchester Book, groove diameters varied quite a bit up until the advent of smokeless powder and metal patched bullets. The original black powder / lead bulleted ammunition worked well in barrels of varying groove diameters due to the black powders ability to bump up the soft lead bullet to fit the barrel, whereas the smokeless powder / metal patched bullets did not.

Original '73's have reported as having groove diameters anywhere from .425" to .437". Mine runs .433" at the muzzle and .436" forward of the chamber. I have been using .435" diameter bullets with good results. The 17/H4227/155 Fed combined with the Magma 205 (.435") or some bumped up 427098's are some of the best shooting loads in that rifle. Thankfully, the chamber neck is large enough to accept a cartridge with a .435" diameter bullet.

In addition, .428" cast bullets and PSB (Poly Shot Buffer) over 4227 shoot very well, the PSB acting as a gas check of sorts allowing the bullet to center in an transverse the barrel undisturbed by powder gases.

Stepping back in time, I did try 40/Swiss FFG/CCI300 under a very undersized .427" diameter 50/1 lead/tin 427098 bullet and, yes, it shot pretty well (surprisingly), just like the original ammunition would have.

Regarding NRA Cowboy Silhouette Pistol Cartridge, your 4756 load would work just fine as long as the accuracy would be maintained at 100M and you have enough elevation in the sight.

Interestingly, the recent Arizona State NRA Cowboy Silhouette Championship Pistol Cartridge was won by a fellow shooting a 44-40 with black powder.

And......he tied the current national record of 75x80 as well. Awesome!

w30wcf

Old Ranger · Post by **Old Ranger** » Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:23 am

Shasta,

Glad that the repair worked as planned. I learned long ago when gunsmithing that you go slow. Approach from the minimum first and never go max unless needed. You took this in stages that were right from the start. When the lead heating was not enough, the next stage was going to the dull red and quench. Slow and methodical steps and you'll have very few failures. Well done sir! Now in the department of loading, I'm sure that you'll find just the one that rifle has a taste for. Again, I look forward to your progress here....

Wade

Shasta · Post by **Shasta** » Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:28 am

w30wcf-

The bore on my rifle slugs at .431", and the RCBS bullet drops from the mould at .429", but despite the small bullet I have been having some success. I am considering using some lapping compound to open up this mould a little, or I might just custom order a .432"-.433" mould as I would like something with a smaller meplat than what this bullet has. I want to stay with a lighter bullet as the 1873's cartridge lifter requires a very short bullet nose to feed properly.

I really appreciate your knowledge and advice. The use of PSB over 4227 interests me a great deal. I also want to work more with Reloader 7 powder since I have several other rifles that use it.

All this experimentation may have to wait awhile as I will soon be having some surgery to repair arthritis problems in my hands. They're doing one hand at a time with a 10 week recovery period each time, so I'm hoping I can continue shooting, it just depends on how debilitating the procedure is.

SHASTA

w30wcf · Post by **w30wcf** » Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:16 am

Shasta,
Sorry to hear about the arthritis problem in your hands. Hope everything goes well and you heal quickly.

Ok, .431" Groove diameter. Thank you. That pretty much explains the lack of accuracy with loads over 1,000 f.p.s.
Do you have a way of measuring the inside diameter of a fired case neck to determine if a .432"-.433" diameter bullet will fit?

The bullets in my pic will all feed fine in my '73 since cartridge oal is less than 1.59".

I could send you some bullets to try if you PM me your address.

w30wcf

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:25 am

Shasta,

Good news about the extractor. Always grand when a plan works out. Prayers up for a rapid and full recovery from your surgery...

DarryH · Post by **DarryH** » Sat Mar 24, 2012 11:51 am

Darn..now I'm feeling bad.

Thanks for the great story, and for getting an old gun shootin again.
I think you done great!

I'm feelin bad, cus....I went to a big gun show in February, with the intention
of purchasing an original 1873 Winchester.
I found a LOT of overpriced junk that would cost way too much to
even think about restoring to shooting shape.
Talking to a good friend, and knowledgeable gun dealer and shooter,
he got me thinking a bit different.
My plans were to shoot the 73 in lever action silhouette competition.
This is done on steel critters, at 4 distances, offhand, and the longest shot at 100 yards.
My bud told me to think about a reproduction instead, due to more durable materials.
He said the biggest advantage would be the new barrel steel.
This sounded good, so I ended up bringing home an almost new Uberti 1873 Deluxe rifle with
a 24" barrel. Is is a very nice looking piece.
Instead of the 38-40 or 44-40 I set out for, I ended up with a .357 mag.
Not the worst choice as I already had a repo 1892 in the same caliber from my cowboy action shootin days.
Now.......after reading your story....I wish I had bought an original gun.
I won't have that kind of cash in my hands again for a very long time.
Oh, ya....I spent the extra on a new, high quality AK and a nice old Colt double action revolver.
Thanks again for the great story.

Shasta · Post by **Shasta** » Sat Mar 24, 2012 12:49 pm

w30wcf wrote:Shasta,
Sorry to hear about the arthritis problem in your hands. Hope everything goes well and you heal quickly.

Ok, .431" Groove diameter. Thank you. That pretty much explains the lack of accuracy with loads over 1,000 f.p.s.
Do you have a way of measuring the inside diameter of a fired case neck to determine if a .432"-.433" diameter bullet will fit?

The bullets in my pic will all feed fine in my '73 since cartridge oal is less than 1.59".

I could send you some bullets to try if you PM me your address.

w30wcf

John- I decided the best way to really know what is needed is by making a Cerrosafe chamber casting. I had to cut the casting in two to get it out of the rifle, but the important front half measurements were:

Bore just in front of chamber = .432"
Diameter of chamber neck= .449"

I used a .45 caliber brass bore brush to clean the powder residue from the inside necks of several of the fired W-W cases, and the average inside measurement was .433". Case neck thickness is .007", so by my calculation a .432"-.433" bullet will fit perfectly.

I very much appreciate your generous offer of some test bullets, and would like to take you up on it. PM sent.

SHASTA

Shasta · Post by **Shasta** » Sat Mar 24, 2012 1:28 pm

DarryH wrote:Darn..now I'm feeling bad.

Thanks for the great story, and for getting an old gun shootin again.
I think you done great!

I'm feelin bad, cus....I went to a big gun show in February, with the intention
of purchasing an original 1873 Winchester.
I found a LOT of overpriced junk that would cost way too much to
even think about restoring to shooting shape.
Talking to a good friend, and knowledgeable gun dealer and shooter,
he got me thinking a bit different.
My plans were to shoot the 73 in lever action silhouette competition.
This is done on steel critters, at 4 distances, offhand, and the longest shot at 100 yards.
My bud told me to think about a reproduction instead, due to more durable materials.
He said the biggest advantage would be the new barrel steel.
This sounded good, so I ended up bringing home an almost new Uberti 1873 Deluxe rifle with
a 24" barrel. Is is a very nice looking piece.
Instead of the 38-40 or 44-40 I set out for, I ended up with a .357 mag.
Not the worst choice as I already had a repo 1892 in the same caliber from my cowboy action shootin days.
Now.......after reading your story....I wish I had bought an original gun.
I won't have that kind of cash in my hands again for a very long time.
Oh, ya....I spent the extra on a new, high quality AK and a nice old Colt double action revolver.
Thanks again for the great story.

DarryH- Your friend gave you very sound advice. The new reproduction 1873's are indeed a lot stronger and much more consistent in bore diameters. A fresh bore free of pitting goes a long way toward accuracy!
Sometimes these old rifles I fool with can be difficult to get shooting well due to oversize bores, pitting, wear, rust, breakage, or a host of other problems such as I have had with the '73 that is the subject of this thread.
I shoot Cowboy Lever Action Silhouette using a Cimarron 1873 Deluxe in .32-20, cast lead bullets only. It required only a little work to make it a silhouette gun. I stoned and polished the sear for lighter trigger pull, and installed tang rear and globe front sights. I recently made Master class with it, and if I could just get ten in a row on those darn turkeys I'd have my Grand Slam.

I hope your new rifle works out for you, I think you made a good choice.

SHASTA

w30wcf · Post by **w30wcf** » Sat Mar 24, 2012 10:34 pm

Shasta,
Thank you for the additional info. I'll get some bullets to try out to you next week.

w30wcf

Shasta · Post by **Shasta** » Mon Apr 30, 2012 1:38 pm

I'm bringing back this month-old thread to continue reporting on progress with my original 1873 Winchester:

True to his word, w30wcf sent me nearly 100 bullets to try. He didn't leave it at that either. He has kept in email contact with me offering some of the very best suggestions and advice a fella could want. I truly would not have made as much progress without his kind assistance. THANK YOU John!

The several styles of bullets w30wcf sent included the RCBS 44-200-FN, Magma 44-200, Accurate 43-215C, and Accurate 43-220C. I had not heard of the Accurate brand molds, but I especially liked the wide grease groove design of those bullets.
The RCBS 44-200-CM I had been working with was accurate at low 800 FPS velocities, but due to its .429" diameter it could not be driven at normal velocity in my rifle's .431" barrel without severe loss of accuracy. Only one or two shots in five would even stay on a 2 ft. X 4 ft. target frame at 50 yards! The sample bullets w30wcf sent all did much better thanks to their larger diameter being a better fit in the bore. Five shot groups were never over 4 inches, and most under 2 inches.

One problem that quickly became apparent was my rifle's inability to smoothly cycle loaded rounds if any of the bullets other than the RCBS were crimped in the crimping groove. I could make them cycle by quickly and forcefully working the lever, but slow cycling would not work. Overall cartridge length was too long unless I seated the bullets an extra .040" deeper.
I learned through our emails that w30wcf had done a great deal of research on original Winchesters, and that the Accurate Mold .44-40 bullets were of his own design with the wide grease groove to accomodate black powder loads, and that they cycled well through other Winchester rifles. Hmmm...
I investigated the problem by removing the sideplates from my rifle and closely studying the toggle link mechanism while working the lever. The bolt was not retracting quite all the way back for some reason, causing the rim of a feeding cartridge to bump against the bottom of the little nub on the bottom face of the bolt. This is the nub that supports the rim of a fired round to keep it from falling back down into the action upon retraction from the chamber. The nub is often broken off on old Winchesters, and I was beginning to see why. With a cartridge that was a little long, or if a rifle tended to have a short cycle like mine, the cartridge striking the nub forces the bolt to retract a little more so the cartridge will feed, but that force is very hard on the nub, eventually causing it to break off. Here is a picture of the nub so you can see what I am referring to:

I decided that seating the bullets deeper was a simpler solution than modifying the rifle, so continued with my testing. The larger diameter bullets could indeed be pushed much faster, with velocities ranging from 1,100 FPS to 1,400 FPS. The RCBS actually performed the best and I could use the crimp groove with that one, but I was very taken with that wide grease groove on w30wcf's Accurate bullet design. It shot well using black powder or smokeless, but the crimp groove was a problem. Not for long.

John came to the rescue by contacting Tom at Accurate Molds and arranging to have a 43-215C mold designed with a .040" shorter bullet nose. 43-205C is the designation for this new mold. As soon as the design was perfected, John notified me I could place the order, and within a couple weeks I had a beautiful new three-cavity aluminum mold. At just over $100 it was not cheap, and I normally don't care for aluminum molds, but this thing is a work of art! I immediately fit it with some RCBS handles and tried it out. Bullets fell freely from all three cavities, and each was exactly .433" diameter as specified with the order. Nominal weight with my alloy was 209 grains, and after lubing they weight 210 grains.

So how do they shoot? Initial testing is looking good! The loaded rounds cycled freely through my rifle. Perfect!

Keep in mind the loads I will mention were tested in my rifle only and may not be suitable or safe in any other.
Here is a five shot 50 yard target using 35 grains Goex FFg black powder, a single card wad under the bullet, and my own homemade lube. Four shots into 1 3/4" and of course a fifth shot that blew out of the group. Velocity averaged 1,173 FPS. Barrel fouling was very heavy but remained soft, indicating adequate lube:

For smokeless loads w30wcf recommended trying 4227 or Reloader 7 powder. I was afraid there might be too much lube with smokeless, but using White Label's B.A.C. lube there was no indication of excessive lube either on the rifle muzzle or around the bullet holes. Using a charge of 18.0 grains IMR4227, velocity was 1,269 FPS, three shots into 1/2" a fourth into 1 1/4", and a fifth opened the group to an even 2":

I had been having some good luck with SR4756 and my old RCBS bullet, so I gave it a try with the Accurate 433205C. A charge of 9.5 grains gave 1,234 FPS and a nice little group of just over one inch:

I saved the best for last. I had a fresh new can of Reloader 7 powder, and with a charge of 25.0 grains the bullets went whizzing through the chronograph at 1,405 FPS, more than enough for the silhouette shooting I am planning. I got four shots into a single hole just under an inch, and again I blew one way out of the group that was obviously shooter error:

Mind you all this testing was done off a portable bench that offers support only under the rifle's forearm, with my shoulder being the only rear support. And with a cast on my right hand due to recent arthritis surgery too. Good thing I am left-handed!

Again I want to acknowledge w30wcf's great help getting my 132 year old Winchester to shoot well, and for pointing me to Accurate Molds. I have several rifles for which I have struggled to find a mold of proper diameter, and now I know where I can get them.

SHASTA

RIHMFIRE · Post by **RIHMFIRE** » Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:25 pm

thats awesome for a 132 year-old Winchester!
nice shooter indeed! congrats

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:24 pm

Excellent report. I've ordered an Accurate mould for my original '73 as well. Sounds like it was the same mould, except I want a final diameter of .431 for my particular rifle.

smokenrust · Post by **smokenrust** » Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:56 pm

Wow! This thread sure has lots of useful info...Thank you Shasta for the time spent for the writeups and pics.... Thank you w30wcf for your help and input so shasta had good reults to write about.
And a big thanks for info that helps others that read this.

Nate Kiowa Jones · Post by **Nate Kiowa Jones** » Tue May 01, 2012 2:41 am

Howdy SHASTA,
Lots of good info here. Sounds like you have this old winnie dialed in. Here's a couple things that may come in handy. In the event that extractor bends again you might try this. Once you get it reshaped heat it to a low cherry and quench it in water. Once you do that it can be extremely brittle which doesn't work well as a spring. You need to draw it back some. Here are two ways I like to use to do that. You can buff it to white metal and lay it on an electric range top burner. turn the heat on and when the white metal turns to a yellow straw color just push it off the burner to cool. Another method to draw it is to dip it in old moter oil and heat it until the oil flames and burns off. The burning oil will draw it back but it's not as precise to me as the colors.

Next is checking the headspace. You may be getting a false reading if you are feeling resistance chambering a round. That is a good indicator for straight wall rounds but a bottleneck like 38-40 can give you a false reading if the shoulder is bottoming before the rim.
What I do is cut a cartridge case off just behind the shoulder, then measure the OAL. Next, seat a spent primer about half in the primer pocket . Chamber this cut-off case and close the action on it seating the primer. Then you extract it and measure again to see how much the primer protrudes. That will give you a rough idea of your headspace.

Shasta · Post by **Shasta** » Tue May 01, 2012 9:39 am

Nate Kiowa Jones-

Thank you for your post. You must of somehow known that my extractor is slowly returning to its old habit of bending! It is again failing to extract some cases, so I will get busy and treat it per your suggestion.

I don't suspect I have a headspace issue, but I certainly will check it. I like how simple and easy it is to test by your method.

SHASTA

walks with gun · Post by **walks with gun** » Tue May 01, 2012 10:03 am

I've always liked 8 to 8.5 grs. of unique with a 200gr. cast in my 44-40's. It seems I shoot more .44wcf than any other cartridge guns. Glad you found a sweet old one.