250K shots fired per insurgent killed in Iraq/Afganistan

preventec47 · Post by **preventec47** » Sat Mar 10, 2012 3:09 pm

http://www.rense.com/general67/bullets.htm

I remember in Vietnam when they said 50K shots were
fired per enemy killed and I thought that was unbelievable

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Sat Mar 10, 2012 3:14 pm

Welcome to the world of Suppressive Fire and being on the Uniformed side of an ununiform war...

They get to snipe, we get to spray.

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Sat Mar 10, 2012 3:15 pm

Why am I not surprised.

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Sat Mar 10, 2012 3:15 pm

I guess that means the U.S. is winning, right?

We're all safe from terror, and the big mean mooslims?

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Sat Mar 10, 2012 3:41 pm

They state in the article that the total bullets fired are around 6 billion. If someone knows the square footage of the sand box, it would be interesting to figure out how many bullets per square foot that works out to. I understand suppressive fire, but there must be a more advanced way to do this ..... maybe particle beam weapons or something like that.

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Sat Mar 10, 2012 3:47 pm

KirkD wrote:... there must be a more advanced way to do this ..... maybe particle beam weapons or something like that.

All together now...

N-E-U-T-R-O-N _B-O-M-B-S

olyinaz · Post by **olyinaz** » Sat Mar 10, 2012 4:47 pm

KirkD wrote:They state in the article that the total bullets fired are around 6 billion. If someone knows the square footage of the sand box, it would be interesting to figure out how many bullets per square foot that works out to. I understand suppressive fire, but there must be a more advanced way to do this ..... maybe particle beam weapons or something like that.

Beaming. Beam them all into outter space.

Oly

adirondakjack · Post by **adirondakjack** » Sat Mar 10, 2012 5:00 pm

NOW do ya understand why we had a primer shortage a few years ago? Imagine how much machine time just to make that many primers......

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Sat Mar 10, 2012 5:20 pm

FWiedner wrote:All together now...

N-E-U-T-R-O-N _B-O-M-B-S

Well, I had thought about neutron bombs but didn't want to mention them. People get excited.

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Sat Mar 10, 2012 6:34 pm

FWiedner wrote:
KirkD wrote:... there must be a more advanced way to do this ..... maybe particle beam weapons or something like that.
All together now...

N-E-U-T-R-O-N _B-O-M-B-S

Nah, were too civilized for that. But darned it would be the perfect weapon. Kills everything, and after it finishes rotting, you can restock the area as you want.

ving-thorr · Post by **ving-thorr** » Sat Mar 10, 2012 6:39 pm

That article is from 2005, and it says that count includes bullets fired in training too. Apart from that, i think OI has it about right.

[quote="Old Ironsights"]Welcome to the world of Suppressive Fire and being on the Uniformed side of an ununiform war...

They get to snipe, we get to spray.[/quote]

It would be interesting to know how many shots an M-16 or M-4 armed rifleman shoots per insurgent killed

adirondakjack · Post by **adirondakjack** » Sat Mar 10, 2012 7:14 pm

In the end, despite high tech, despite tactics, a statistic very predictive of outcome is rounds downrange. The ability to put more lead in the opponent's direction than he can toward you is always a good thing. Conversely, ask the "insurgents" fighting against the Syrian army what happens when ya start running out of ammo......

gamekeeper · Post by **gamekeeper** » Sat Mar 10, 2012 7:15 pm

250K shots fired per insurgent killed, sometimes I nearly get that good on Pigeons..

preventec47 · Post by **preventec47** » Sat Mar 10, 2012 7:37 pm

The article was written in 2005 and we had shot 6 billion
at that time. Now 7 years later I bet it has more than doubled
that. Think of the total cost of war now as how much per enemy killed.
We could just pay the enemy to be good
and be a lot cheaper if they would honor the deal.

crs · Post by **crs** » Sat Mar 10, 2012 7:40 pm

I like the concept of the Neutron Bomb. Can anyone remember the USA ever using them?

I had written more in an intended satirical nature, but deleted it so as not to upset the folks scanning forums looking for certain word combinations.

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:01 pm

crs wrote:I like the concept of the Neutron Bomb. Can anyone remember the USA ever using them?

I had written more in an intended satirical nature, but deleted it so as not to upset the folks scanning forums looking for certain word combinations.

Not sure we ever had one operational. I think that it was purposed and in development when a treaty banning them was signed. Still, I have to wonder if we don't have a few stashed in the back of a ammo bunker somewhere.

preventec47 · Post by **preventec47** » Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:08 pm

And I thought I was ready for the big bad times event with
a few hundred rounds. Now I see I have to increase that
by 100X and maybe more . Boy that aint goinna be cheap.

Just think in a hundred thousand years when the next intelligent creatures are roaming around the middle east, they are going
to be mining for brass and lead as commodities over there.
I guess 223 takes small rifle primers. Is that right ? Does
anyone know what gunpowder they are using in military
.223 ammo ?

Chris83716 · Post by **Chris83716** » Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:25 pm

FWiedner wrote:
KirkD wrote:... there must be a more advanced way to do this ..... maybe particle beam weapons or something like that.
All together now...

N-E-U-T-R-O-N _B-O-M-B-S

A big second on that. I have not seen anything worth a drop of blood or a penny of value come out of our involvement over there.

Chris

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:29 pm

It really comes down to stupid doctrine.

If you are going to fight a >300yd war with <300yd weapons you are going to run through ammo like water.

OTOH FWIU those guys with .308s out there have some pretty impressive kill rates, and not just the dedicated "counter snipers".

Leave the poodle shooters for in-town work and give the grunts some real weapons for the field so they can put some aimed fire on 300+yd targets. (do they teach aimed long range fire any more other than in the Marines?)

pdentrem · Post by **pdentrem** » Sat Mar 10, 2012 9:13 pm

It has been claimed that 1million per casualty in WW2. Do not know if true.

Watching Zulu right now. Heavy and slow bullet used in this case.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Sat Mar 10, 2012 9:20 pm

preventec47 wrote:And I thought I was ready for the big bad times event with
a few hundred rounds. Now I see I have to increase that
by 100X and maybe more .

On the other hand, a fellow hosing down the area with a hailstorm of rounds is going to be pretty noticeable. I have worked in difficult circumstances in unfriendly countries and found that the best way to move around and get my job done was to become 'invisible' .... perfectly unnoticeable, a nondescript generic entity that just blends in and disappears and keeps moving. For future problems, I would want to avoid a scenario where a lot of hosing was necessary, as life expectancy really drops in those situations, especially if the wife and kids are right there. A lot of times, success is 95% thinking ahead and only 5% shooting.

JerryB · Post by **JerryB** » Sat Mar 10, 2012 9:36 pm

Very true Kirk. I think that is all they teach police and military, spay and pray.I don't know who trains the men with the M14 rifles but they should hire them to teach the rest of the troops too.

Post by **Chuck 100 yd** » Sat Mar 10, 2012 10:05 pm

We have too many pigs running around. Gather them up and drop them over there where they will do some good.

Thunder50 · Post by **Thunder50** » Sun Mar 11, 2012 11:51 am

KirkD (and others)

Lets see, Iraq is 167,400 square miles, Afghanistan is 251,737 square miles, for a total of 419,137 square miles

419137 square miles time 640 acres per square mile=268,247,680 acres

268,247,680 acres times 43,600 sq. ft/acre (IIRC)=11,695,598,848,000 square feet

11,695,598,848,000 divided by 12 billion bullets=974.63 square feet per bullet

Whew!!

Peter M. Eick · Post by **Peter M. Eick** » Sun Mar 11, 2012 11:55 am

Nice job on the math. I was just about to figure the same thing!

Mich Hunter · Post by **Mich Hunter** » Sun Mar 11, 2012 12:03 pm

Old Ironsights wrote:It really comes down to stupid doctrine.

If you are going to fight a >300yd war with <300yd weapons you are going to run through ammo like water.

OTOH FWIU those guys with .308s out there have some pretty impressive kill rates, and not just the dedicated "counter snipers".

Leave the poodle shooters for in-town work and give the grunts some real weapons for the field so they can put some aimed fire on 300+yd targets. (do they teach aimed long range fire any more other than in the Marines?)

You nailed it on the head. Most of the engagements in Afghan are mountain side to mountain side. The M4 just doesn't cut it for that style of fighting, but you will never hear Uncle Sam say that. There is also a reason why there is a big push to bring back the M14 as a DM weapon and to find a larger caliber battle rifle for issue.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Sun Mar 11, 2012 12:38 pm

Thunder50 wrote:12 billion bullets=974.63 square feet per bullet

Nice work!

rimrock · Post by **rimrock** » Sun Mar 11, 2012 1:05 pm

I can't give an exact number, but I think most of our warriors get fewer than 100 practice rounds before seeing enemy engagement. And, with no uniformed adversary, sometimes suppressive fire is all that's allowed or too much collateral damage happens. Maybe instead of phosphorus to light up the night sky, it'd be better to send up something to detect GSR out to about 500 yds. When the GSR is located then send in the drones to mow 'em down. Or, one of my favorite ideas for commercial airlines could be adapted to battle. Spray sleeping gas over a wide area, go in and do forensic testing to detect the BG for removal, with amount of force determined by their strong or weak resistance. In other words, we shouldn't be any more conventional than the enemy. Are we spilling American blood for any useful reason in Afganistan?

rimrock

El Chivo · Post by **El Chivo** » Mon Mar 12, 2012 12:35 am

I remember back in the Bill Clinton days when we went into Yugoslavia/Kosovo to help out, when it was all over it was announced that we had spent $14 billion. Also that we had destroyed 14 tanks.

Heck, we should have just bought the tanks for $500 million apiece and saved ourselves half the money.

If you figure the cost of the ammo is what? 50 cents per round? and so we'd have $125,000 to spend for the death of an insurgent. Offer bounty hunters $100,000 each and save $25,000.

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:06 am

What I get out of this is that if our military heros were presented with a target 31' tall and 31' wide made of 6" disks and told to open fire, they would hit one disk, and would not be able to tell you in advance which one it was going to be.

Or... maybe they could tell you precisely which one it was going to be.

stew71 · Post by **stew71** » Mon Mar 12, 2012 11:44 am

FWiedner wrote:
KirkD wrote:... there must be a more advanced way to do this ..... maybe particle beam weapons or something like that.
All together now...
N-E-U-T-R-O-N _B-O-M-B-S

Nahhh....a single Trident D-5 MIRV is all we need. Who cares if that place is inhabitable afterwards? It's barely there now.

piller · Post by **piller** » Mon Mar 12, 2012 11:50 am

I have a cruel suggestion. Educate them, show them what they could have with capitolism, infect them with greed and desire for things they don't have, and then leave.

GonnePhishin · Post by **GonnePhishin** » Mon Mar 12, 2012 12:20 pm

Ah, come on now, its good for the economy.

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Mon Mar 12, 2012 12:30 pm

piller wrote:I have a cruel suggestion. Educate them, show them what they could have with capitolism, infect them with greed and desire for things they don't have, and then leave.

This has, I believe, been tried.

Now we are at war.

Charles · Post by **Charles** » Mon Mar 12, 2012 12:49 pm

Put a bounty of $1,000,000 on each bad guy and let the head hunters do the dirty work. Much cheaper that way. All we need is some collection points and payment points.

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Mon Mar 12, 2012 2:49 pm

Interesting numbers.

I've long found it interesting that in the US Civil War, that the number of rounds per casualty was far less than today (and the casualties were far higher). Many talk about how good it is to "put a lot of lead in the air" or use terms like "hit probablity" as regards high volume small arms fire, but it seems the more/faster we can shoot, the worse job everyone does of it. Simply looking at the overall numbers is interesting. With bolt action rifles and heavy machine guns, there were single days in WW1 that had as high casualties as the entire 10 years of the Viet Nam war. 54,000 men were killed in 10 hours at the Battle of Somme. I just havent figured out exactly what the relationship is to our supposed uber deadly assault rifles, and the apparent lack of casualties in modern warfare. I understand there are major differences in tactices and conditions, but that doesn't seem to be the entire answer. The trend of higher volumes of fire and lower casualties has been going on for a long time. It would seem far safer to be on a modern battlefield than one of the Civil War or WW1 period. None of this is to denigrate any modern warrior, I have the utmost respect for those that go in harms way, just an interesting topic with some baffling conditions and results.

stretch · Post by **stretch** » Mon Mar 12, 2012 3:34 pm

As a handloader, all I can think about is all of that once-fired brass!!!

-Stretch

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Mon Mar 12, 2012 4:32 pm

Last trip to Afghanistan, my eldest and his platoon got in a rather unpleasant spot. A couple of Army Apaches dealt with the problem. Shortly thereafter, he "found" an M-14 lying around. Seems Marines are really good at finding things when they need to.

As he put it, Iraq was all pretty much up close and personal for him. Afghanistan it was back to long range shooting. The M-16's might be good on paper at 300yds, but in the real world of shooting (things like wind, and it's usually windy there) that little bullet just doesn't go where you want it to.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Mon Mar 12, 2012 5:04 pm

jeepnik wrote:Last trip to Afghanistan, my eldest and his platoon got in a rather unpleasant spot. A couple of Army Apaches dealt with the problem. Shortly thereafter, he "found" an M-14 lying around. Seems Marines are really good at finding things when they need to.

As he put it, Iraq was all pretty much up close and personal for him. Afghanistan it was back to long range shooting. The M-16's might be good on paper at 300yds, but in the real world of shooting (things like wind, and it's usually windy there) that little bullet just doesn't go where you want it to.

Good for him. "Creative acquisition" is an underused/under-appreciated skill in today's Military...

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Mon Mar 12, 2012 6:17 pm

Malamute wrote: .... None of this is to denigrate any modern warrior, I have the utmost respect for those that go in harms way, just an interesting topic with some baffling conditions and results.

Well said.

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Mon Mar 12, 2012 9:00 pm

Old Ironsights wrote:
jeepnik wrote:Last trip to Afghanistan, my eldest and his platoon got in a rather unpleasant spot. A couple of Army Apaches dealt with the problem. Shortly thereafter, he "found" an M-14 lying around. Seems Marines are really good at finding things when they need to.

As he put it, Iraq was all pretty much up close and personal for him. Afghanistan it was back to long range shooting. The M-16's might be good on paper at 300yds, but in the real world of shooting (things like wind, and it's usually windy there) that little bullet just doesn't go where you want it to.
Good for him. "Creative acquisition" is an underused/under-appreciated skill in today's Military...

Its called thievery now, and if it is not signed for, is grounds for an article 15, if not worse

gvthnks · Post by **gvthnks** » Mon Mar 12, 2012 9:07 pm

Malamute wrote: None of this is to denigrate any modern warrior, I have the utmost respect for those that go in harms way, just an interesting topic with some baffling conditions and results.

OK, no offense taken, but...

just a question? Has anyone thats posted here been to either iraq or buttcrackistan? Just curious? Is anyone familiar with the PTP (pre-deployment training) requirements prior to, or sustainment training requirements once in country?

Does anyone know how many rounds it takes to qualify a good shooter on an EMP (enhanced marksmanship program) course during level 1, 2, or 3 even after deployed?

It's a bunch. That article doesn't even begin to tell the story or attempt to justify the number of rounds expended. I see it simply as an attempt to give the American Soldier or US Marine another black eye without telling the whole story. I retired from the Marine Corps just a bit ago and had multiple deployments to these places and I'm very familiar with the training requirements placed on the individual Marine / Soldier prior to and during deployments. We burn a lot of ammo, and we kill bad guys. All the while being held to a higher standard in terms of collateral damage than at any other time in history. That's not all bad.

I've personally run all day EMP ranges where each of my shooters were shooting approximately 1000 rounds a day of 5.56. That sounds like a lot, but includes close proximity shooting, shooting while moving, shooting while dark, white light, low light, gas mask, etc. All while wearing 40+ lbs of body armor and another 30 lbs of gear and ammo and water. Mix in a little cardio, and the proverbial stress, and the hot brass flying down your blouse from an adjacent shooter, slipping in between the only gap in your body armor and it makes it challenging for the masses.

Final standard is 80% hits in a 6" circle regardless of range. Doesn't sound like it's difficult, but please try it under the conditions required before passing judgement.

So this particular course lasted 5 days. That's approximately 5k per shooter to qualify. Some require remediation and that takes more ammo. Then lets do it again every 30 days to maintain proficiency and meet the theater requirement. (5 days not required this time, but probably 1 or 2)

That's a single requirement out of a task list of about 240 that each Marine has to be able to perform to standard. Granted, not all 240 require shooting, but about 27 do IIRC. Oh, by the way, if your one of us lucky ones that carry multiple weapons..... please be proficient with each one. ( I always made the joke that I wasn't a fast runner... I didn't have to be as I was carrying 3 weapons) If we look at the number of US servicemen that have been in either theater and do the math it adds up quickly. It also doesn't count the ammo we've given to other countries to get them to help us in the fight.

My point is that the vast majority of that ammo expended is used in training, and not actually expended against enemy in a TIC. (troops in contact, or new PC jargon for a fire fight).

We expend a lot of ammo killing bad guys, but misses, or collateral damage cost us more than the ammo does. In Iraq for example, for a time, we paid 2500$ cash if we killed a non combatant. Any one wonder why battle sites get cleaned up so quickly when possible? Because the absense of brass or weapons located near a dead guy in some provinces equated to us killing a Non combatant and so the local Governor or Shiek petitioned the US to pay. We did. One time, one of my teams hadn't even made it back to the FOB before the local shiek was asking us for blood money in the death of one of his villagers. "he was simply a farmer trying to hide his propane so the insurgents wouldn't take it". Silly me... and I thought burying propane tanks next to a road several hundred yards from your home in a prior IED spot appeared to be phase 1 of an IED implant... but I digress.

OK, off my soap box. I love leverguns...

P.S. I also think low yield special weapons are our friends.

And to the guy whos son is a US Marine and aquired a different weapon. We used to refer to that as STEALing...

Selectively Taking Equipment to an Alternate Location. It's a time honored tradition whereby Marines accomplish great things with less than everyone else.

Semper Fi

1894cfan · Post by **1894cfan** » Mon Mar 12, 2012 11:07 pm

FWiedner wrote:We're all safe from terror, and the big mean mooslims?

Does that include the one in the white house? I know, off topic and in poor taste, but I couldn't help myself.

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Mon Mar 12, 2012 11:27 pm

gvthnks wrote:
Malamute wrote: None of this is to denigrate any modern warrior, I have the utmost respect for those that go in harms way, just an interesting topic with some baffling conditions and results.
OK, no offense taken, but...

...Does anyone know how many rounds it takes to qualify a good shooter on an EMP (enhanced marksmanship program) course during level 1, 2, or 3 even after deployed?....

I'm with you on that. I dont have the experience personally, but a freind was a trainer in Irag and Afghanistan. He said they ran LOTS of rounds thru weapons on everyone coming in country just to get them all up to the best speed possible right before they went out.

My comments were regarding the difference in modern weapons and battlefield conditions and rounds per casualty, and those in the past. It's just stunning what the casualty rates were in the past, even in the muzzle loader days of the Civil War.

handirifle · Post by **handirifle** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:46 am

gvthnks wrote:
Malamute wrote: None of this is to denigrate any modern warrior, I have the utmost respect for those that go in harms way, just an interesting topic with some baffling conditions and results.
OK, no offense taken, but...

just a question? Has anyone thats posted here been to either iraq or buttcrackistan? Just curious? Is anyone familiar with the PTP (pre-deployment training) requirements prior to, or sustainment training requirements once in country?

Does anyone know how many rounds it takes to qualify a good shooter on an EMP (enhanced marksmanship program) course during level 1, 2, or 3 even after deployed?

It's a bunch. That article doesn't even begin to tell the story or attempt to justify the number of rounds expended. I see it simply as an attempt to give the American Soldier or US Marine another black eye without telling the whole story. I retired from the Marine Corps just a bit ago and had multiple deployments to these places and I'm very familiar with the training requirements placed on the individual Marine / Soldier prior to and during deployments. We burn a lot of ammo, and we kill bad guys. All the while being held to a higher standard in terms of collateral damage than at any other time in history. That's not all bad.

I've personally run all day EMP ranges where each of my shooters were shooting approximately 1000 rounds a day of 5.56. That sounds like a lot, but includes close proximity shooting, shooting while moving, shooting while dark, white light, low light, gas mask, etc. All while wearing 40+ lbs of body armor and another 30 lbs of gear and ammo and water. Mix in a little cardio, and the proverbial stress, and the hot brass flying down your blouse from an adjacent shooter, slipping in between the only gap in your body armor and it makes it challenging for the masses.

Final standard is 80% hits in a 6" circle regardless of range. Doesn't sound like it's difficult, but please try it under the conditions required before passing judgement.

So this particular course lasted 5 days. That's approximately 5k per shooter to qualify. Some require remediation and that takes more ammo. Then lets do it again every 30 days to maintain proficiency and meet the theater requirement. (5 days not required this time, but probably 1 or 2)

That's a single requirement out of a task list of about 240 that each Marine has to be able to perform to standard. Granted, not all 240 require shooting, but about 27 do IIRC. Oh, by the way, if your one of us lucky ones that carry multiple weapons..... please be proficient with each one. ( I always made the joke that I wasn't a fast runner... I didn't have to be as I was carrying 3 weapons) If we look at the number of US servicemen that have been in either theater and do the math it adds up quickly. It also doesn't count the ammo we've given to other countries to get them to help us in the fight.

My point is that the vast majority of that ammo expended is used in training, and not actually expended against enemy in a TIC. (troops in contact, or new PC jargon for a fire fight).

We expend a lot of ammo killing bad guys, but misses, or collateral damage cost us more than the ammo does. In Iraq for example, for a time, we paid 2500$ cash if we killed a non combatant. Any one wonder why battle sites get cleaned up so quickly when possible? Because the absense of brass or weapons located near a dead guy in some provinces equated to us killing a Non combatant and so the local Governor or Shiek petitioned the US to pay. We did. One time, one of my teams hadn't even made it back to the FOB before the local shiek was asking us for blood money in the death of one of his villagers. "he was simply a farmer trying to hide his propane so the insurgents wouldn't take it". Silly me... and I thought burying propane tanks next to a road several hundred yards from your home in a prior IED spot appeared to be phase 1 of an IED implant... but I digress.

OK, off my soap box. I love leverguns...

P.S. I also think low yield special weapons are our friends.

And to the guy whos son is a US Marine and aquired a different weapon. We used to refer to that as STEALing...

Selectively Taking Equipment to an Alternate Location. It's a time honored tradition whereby Marines accomplish great things with less than everyone else. Semper Fi

Well spoken, and from an old former Army grunt, there's a reason Marines have always been respected, they EARNED their respect. I went into the army an experience shooter and hunter, and was almost made a worse shot by the time I left basic. The Army's idea of marksmanship left a lot to be desired, in my opinion.

And for the trooper that "found" the M14, good on him. If our leaders are too backward to provide the proper equipment to fight the war properly, "improvise, and survive".

GVTHNKS
THANK YOU very much for your service sir.

As for those that keep saying that we are getting nothing from being in Afghanistan, you are exactly right, and that's exactly the reason we are over there. Take the fight to them on THEIR home turf. Can you imagine the chaos and media fear that would go on if we has the kind of stuff that Isreal has to deal with? All the liberal politicians and media moguls would be demanding we give them what they want so they would play nice.

9/11 toughened the resolve of many, but many have quickly forgotten just how dedicated those morons are. Their zeal is not from political or economic beginnings, it is a religious fervor hardly ever seen in this nation. As a Christian, I can honestly say, if we (Christians) exhibited that kind of zeal in serving Christ, the Gospel would have already reached every tribe and every nation on earth. But as for soldiers, I am glad for our troops of all branches, that are serving for folks like me, may God Bless and protect them.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:08 am

handirifle wrote:...

Well spoken, and from an old former Army grunt, there's a reason Marines have always been respected, they EARNED their respect. I went into the army an experience shooter and hunter, and was almost made a worse shot by the time I left basic. The Army's idea of marksmanship left a lot to be desired, in my opinion.

And for the trooper that "found" the M14, good on him. If our leaders are too backward to provide the proper equipment to fight the war properly, "improvise, and survive".

...

That was my experience with the Army in the '80s/'90s as well.

L_Kilkenny · Post by **L_Kilkenny** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:39 am

Seen it referenced where it was said that the amount of rifle/musket fired lead it took to kill someone in the Civil War was roughly the same weight as the average soldier. Now I don't know how much an average Mini-ball weighed but that's a dang lot of em considering they were lining up behind limited cover, doing full out charges and the number of soldiers killed from infection/disease cause by relatively minor wounds (Is there such a thing?).

Let's look at it from a different point of view....
12 billion / 250K each = 48000 dead insurgents. Now that's a good thing but does that number sound low to anyone? Heck, in the first golf war we killed 100,000 in a few days and in just a few of the larger battles in Iraq 1000's were killed (Fallujah, Ramadi, spelling?) . If I had to guess the number of enemy dead is much, much higher and could very well be intentionally low for politically correct reasons. I doubt we'll ever know what the grand total is but no matter where the final number ends up it is way way too low.

LK

BAGTIC · Post by **BAGTIC** » Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:21 pm

"And I thought I was ready for the big bad times event with
a few hundred rounds. Now I see I have to increase that
by 100X and maybe more . Boy that aint goinna be cheap."

I think you will be able to get by with many fewer. Rember when IT hits the fan you will be able to make up YOUR OWN rules of engagement.