Range Time 2 Win 1894's & a Reloading Question UPDATE

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CBinNH
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Range Time 2 Win 1894's & a Reloading Question UPDATE

#1 Post by CBinNH » Mon Feb 13, 2012 2:40 pm

I just picked up a 1894 in 38-55 & tried some reloads that used to be a go to load in a few others I've had. 16 grains of IMR 4227 & a 260 grain cast bullet, Starline long brass kindly provided by member Spaceman Spiff. At 50 yards my first shots were over the target with my rear sight at it's lowest setting. I aimed for the plate bottom with my last 4 shots & they hit paper, still high. The target is turned 180 degrees in the pic (top gun). My question is how high a charge is safe for me to use in the old girl? My intent is to reduce the trajectory in hopes of bringing the bullets to point of aim. I have 6 load manuals, none of which show 4227 loads with cast bullets for 38-55 use. I like 4227 in my 32-40 (low gun) & would be pleased if I could use it in both. I would also prefer not to change out the original sights. Thanks.
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Last edited by CBinNH on Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Range Time 2 Win 1894's & a Reloading Question

#2 Post by earlmck » Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:24 pm

Ouch! That rifle is shooting awful high with what must be real close to old-time factory ballistics (about 1200 fps would you guess?). 4227 is a real good powder for the round and you have quite a lot of room to up the charge (max at 22 grains or so) and still keep within modest pressure range to see if perchance your rifle is one that would shoot lower with a higher velocity. If you lower the velocity until you start getting on at 50 yards I'm thinking you'll be at slingshot velocities. I'm betting you will have to look at a taller front sight before all is said and done...
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Re: Range Time 2 Win 1894's & a Reloading Question

#3 Post by Griff » Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:37 pm

I don't recall from previous threads, is it a "N.S.", or Nickel Steel barrel? If so, I wouldn't be adverse to loads in the 30-35,000CUP range... otherwise, keep your loads under 29,000. See Hodgdon's Load Data.
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Re: Range Time 2 Win 1894's & a Reloading Question

#4 Post by CBinNH » Mon Feb 13, 2012 6:12 pm

It is not marked NS on the barrel top. I have not pulled the fore-end to see if it has NS there. I am assuming it is a black powder barrel being a 1905 vintage gun. Current data from Hodgdon does not show any 4227 loads. I guess I can email them, although I have not received a response yet to a question I had a couple months back. I was able to lower the rear a bit by loosening the screw in its' face & dropping the notched insert.

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Re: Range Time 2 Win 1894's & a Reloading Question

#5 Post by CBinNH » Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:01 pm

I emailed Hodgdon. Their response: "We have no IMR 4227 data for the 38-55". :roll:

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Re: Range Time 2 Win 1894's & a Reloading Question

#6 Post by Charles » Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:37 pm

I have known a couple of folks who blew up Winchester 86s with black powder barrels by not respecting their needs for low pressure loads. I don't know of anybody who blew up a 94. If it was my rifle, I would stick with the original ballistics and just have fun. If needed I would change out the front sight to get it dead on.

If you don't want to change out the front sight, take out the rear sight elevator and drop the rear sight to the top of the barrel. If that didn't work and you needed some elevation, pick up an old elevator somewhere and file the notch so it elevates where you want.

I looked through some of my old Ideal manuals, but found no loads for 4227. They did list loads for 2400. 2400 has a burning rate a little slower than 4227. The 2400 loads over a 255 grain cast bullet stop at 16 grains, for a velocity of 1,450 fps. I don't think I would want to go higher than about 17 perhaps 18 grains of 4227. Probably nothing bad would happen if you did, but I see no reason to push things over a POI issue.

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Re: Range Time 2 Win 1894's & a Reloading Question

#7 Post by Newtmaker » Wed Feb 15, 2012 5:11 pm

I have a 94 that is the Golden Spike commemorative edition, made in early 68 I believe. It was a gift from a relative and since I had no paperwork or original box, it wasn't worth much as a collector, so I decided to shoot it. My first day at the range with 150g JSP Remington ammo, it was at least 16" high at 50 yards. I put a taller front sight on and went from there. A year or so later I was given some cowboy rounds that said they replicated what was commonly available for the gun at the time it came out, ie, 1894. They were 170 grain cast bullets with a powder that gave velocities around 1500 fps. At the range they shot about 16" low from my sight setup for the current factory rounds. It is my belief that the front sight that came with the gun even duplicated what was standard when the gun first came out. I may be wrong, but it sure seemed like a strong coincidence to me.

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Re: Range Time 2 Win 1894's & a Reloading Question

#8 Post by 6pt-sika » Wed Feb 15, 2012 5:33 pm

First deer I ever killed with a cast bullet and no scope was in 2002 with a Marlin 336CB in 38-55 . The load I used was the Lyman 375449 sized at .379" and lubed with SPG and pushed with 15 grains od SR4759 . This was not a hot load by any means . Oh yeah I used the CCI200 primer .
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Re: Range Time 2 Win 1894's & a Reloading Question

#9 Post by CBinNH » Wed Feb 15, 2012 5:58 pm

I appreciate everyones input. I have no intention of hotrodding my 38-55. I was under the impression (apparantly mistaken) that IMR 4227 was used for target loads in the 38-55 along with the 32-40. I'll probably buy some 5744.

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Re: Range Time 2 Win 1894's & a Reloading Question

#10 Post by 6pt-sika » Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:03 pm

CBinNH wrote:I appreciate everyones input. I have no intention of hotrodding my 38-55. I was under the impression (apparantly mistaken) that IMR 4227 was used for target loads in the 38-55 along with the 32-40. I'll probably buy some 5744.

It is many of the schuetzen shooters use IMR4227 in the 32-40 I know for a fact . But not as sure about the 38-55 .

When I first started I liked SR4759 more but after I'd been at it a few years and bought a couple of Venturino's books I changed over to XMP5744 . Now I've gone away from that and used shall we say more high octane powders for most everything I load cast in !
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Re: Range Time 2 Win 1894's & a Reloading Question

#11 Post by AJMD429 » Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:12 pm

CBinNH wrote:I emailed Hodgdon. Their response: "We have no IMR 4227 data for the 38-55". :roll:
A friend of mine uses 21 grains with a 270 grain cast bullet and says he gets around 1700 fps with it (the reason I remember the load is that it's the maximum load for a .44 Mag with the powder I actually use), but I have no 4227 powder, so can't verify the load. You might try LoadData.com or AmmoGuide.com - both require 'membership' but the $19 or so per year is WELL worth it...
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Re: Range Time 2 Win 1894's & a Reloading Question

#12 Post by earlmck » Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:32 am

My old Lyman 44th edition shows a 249 grain cast bullet, a starting load with IMR 4227 of 19 grains for 1335 fps and 21.0 grains giving 1543 fps. These would be mild, not pressure limited but bullet limited because they didn't want to take the plain based cast bullet to higher velocity.

Same manual shows 22.0 grains 4227 with 255 grain jacketed bullet for 1374 fps as a maximum load of the 4227. Factory duplication load with the 255 bullet is 17 grains of 2400 powder for 1221 fps. Their highest velocity load was with 35 grains of 3031, the 255 gr. jacketed bullet, for 1800 fps.

These are from an older model 94 with 26" barrel. My QuickLoad ballistics program estimates you'll get 80 fps less with the 20" barrel and the 4227 loads.

You are some ways away from pressure worries and do have room to experiment with more velocity if you think it might help with the bullet impact situation.
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Re: Range Time 2 Win 1894's & a Reloading Question UPDATE

#13 Post by CBinNH » Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:58 pm

Thanks earlmck. I remembered that I have an older Lyman manual in my reloading cabinet too. I loaded up a handful with 18 grains of IMR 4227. I also was able to bottom out the insert in the sight. The results:
Image

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Re: Range Time 2 Win 1894's & a Reloading Question UPDATE

#14 Post by earlmck » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:20 pm

Well hey! That looks quite promising, CB. You're definitely on the right track.
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Re: Range Time 2 Win 1894's & a Reloading Question UPDATE

#15 Post by ollogger » Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:54 pm

Thats great & alls well

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Re: Range Time 2 Win 1894's & a Reloading Question UPDATE

#16 Post by kimwcook » Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:42 am

CBinNH wrote:Thanks earlmck. I remembered that I have an older Lyman manual in my reloading cabinet too. I loaded up a handful with 18 grains of IMR 4227. I also was able to bottom out the insert in the sight. The results:
Image
Looks like you're on to something now.
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