The old "Military Guns"

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getitdone1
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The old "Military Guns"

Post by getitdone1 »

Watching Hickok45 tonight on YouTube and one of the guns he talked about and shot was a Russian Mosin-Nagant. This got me to looking at some of my gun books and other old "Military Guns."

Thought it would be interesting to ask you guys about your favorite gun that was used by not only by our country but by countries all over the world. Especially the old bolt-action guns.

One I've always liked, and may buy, is the Schmidt-Rubin with it 'straight pull' action. It's cartridge is not too far behind the 308 Winchester in power. One of the heaviest evidently since I see it weighs 10.5 lbs. Most of these old guns are 9 lbs or more.

Which one, I've heard but forget, had the smoothest action?

I might have to start me a little collection of some of these guns. Many can be bought at a very reasonable price. It's an area of gun collecting that's very popular with a lot of people.

A very nice collection would consist of every major gun used by our military from beginning to present.

Don
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Re: The old "Military Guns"

Post by Malamute »

Don, I rather like the British No1 Sht LE (Short Lee Enfield) rifles. I have one from 1918 that's fun to shoot. Decent surplus ammo is hard to get, unfortunately.

The Russian guns are popular, and ammo is cheap and available, they just never appealed to me. Besides the Lee Enfield, I like the 1903 Springfield and the US 1917, commonly called the 1917 Enfield. The 1903 sporter I have is much nicer to shoot and handle than the original configured guns are. You probably werent thinking of sporters when you brought this up, but that's just my outlook on the subject.

I find I prefer sporterized rifles more than original military configuration. In that regard, I don't care at all for military Mausers, but as a sporter, I like them very much. I find the lines and handling of the Lee Enfields agreeable, but still think about making a Lee sporter out of mine, similar to Val Kilmers rifle in the film The Ghost and the Darkness. They are generally known as Lee-Speed rifles.
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Re: The old "Military Guns"

Post by 1894c »

I like the British Enfield's too--haven't owned one in awhile, but was allot of fun to shoot. I think the last one I owned was a No.4. I also had a Swedish Mauser 6.5mm (year 1948), my brother owns it now, very accurate, easy recoil, and the penetration is amazing... :)
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Re: The old "Military Guns"

Post by 3leggedturtle »

The 30/40 Krag is the smoothest.. 6.5 Swedes s'posed to be most accurate, Jap M38 the strongest. The SMELLY;; the UGLYIEST :P :twisted:
30/30 Winchester: Not accurate enough fer varmints, barely adequate for small deer; BUT In a 10" to 14" barrelled pistol; is good for moose/elk to 200 yards; ground squirrels to 300 metres

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Re: The old "Military Guns"

Post by MrMurphy »

I'm the opposite, I leave them in original condition unless previously sporterized (as was my Mauser, profesionally sometime 30-40 years ago).

I like the Lee-Enfields the best, in issued condition but the various Mausers are all solid pieces I would have had no issue with carrying six or seven decades ago in uniform.
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Re: The old "Military Guns"

Post by jhrosier »

I'm fond of my 1878/81 Swiss Vetterli

Image

Here's some info on converting it from rimfire to centerfire so I can shoot it:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=21917
The Vettterli is interesting in part because it uses the same magazine and lifter mechanism that the early Winchesters used.

Jack
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Re: The old "Military Guns"

Post by Stan in SC »

A few years back I owned and hunted with a British .303.A great rifle and cartridge.I killed one deer and two coyotes with it.
I currently own three Mosins,one of which is a sporterized carbine.The 7.62X54R round is very strong and will almost approach a 30-06 in power.I haven't hunted with any of them but do plan to do so.....Sometime.
Milsurp rifles are addicting and a lot of fun.Many of them can be very very accurate.

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Re: The old "Military Guns"

Post by 2ndovc »

My favorite is my Remington 03A3. Well balanced and incredilby accurate.

After that the Enfields are my favorites with the Australian Lithgow at the
top of the list.

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Re: The old "Military Guns"

Post by awp101 »

Ah yes, the mil-surp bug bites another! :lol:

It's hard for me to pin down a favorite. The K31 is fine Swiss precision in action. I read a number of years ago that with the level of machining involved, a comparable action built today (this was 6-8 years ago) would run in the neighborhood of $1500-2000. And they are still available for under $350. Hard to argue with that kind of value, especially if you roll your own and can use the issue sights.

The SMLE is a wonderful platform. I've had a pair of NoI MkIIIs in the past and currently have a No4 MkI. I'd like two more No4s. One for a sporter build using one of the .303 wildcats and another to build up a replica No4 MkI (T).

I've had a couple of T38 and T99 Arisakas but never fired them due to ammo issues. I have a 99 right now that's been sporterized and will eventually be rebarreled. Probably into .257 Roberts.

Mausers. Where do I start? :lol: The 6.5x55 and 7x57 are 1A and 1B when it comes to my favorite calibers and the order can change from day to day. Over the years, I've come to prefer carbines and short rifles for the handiness factor. Once the parts get here, I'll be working on an Israeli .308 (ex-Brno action). It'll be my first project so it should be interesting. :lol:

I've done the Nagant thing and once the cool factor wore off, I moved on. Nothing against the rifles, they just didn't grab me. The SVT40 on the other hand, I should never have let go! :oops:
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Re: The old "Military Guns"

Post by damienph »

My favorite foreign military rifles are the Lee-Enfield No4 Mk1s. I've had a few over the past 25 years and still have one in full military trim, one really nice sporter, and one 18" bubba.

Also still in original trim is a 1909 Argentine Mauser in 7.65x53, and a Remington Rolling Block in 7mm Spanish

My all time favorite military rifle though is the 1903 Springfield. Both of mine are sporterized (a long time ago); a 1943 Smith Corona 1903A3, and 1928 Springfield Armory 1903.

Others that I have really enjoyed were a Garand and a Chinese SKS, both of which have been passed down to my son. I still have a 1943 Inland M1 Carbine though, it is such a fun shooter that I think it will be a few years before he gets that one.

Almost forgot, I also have a Romanian 22LR bolt action training rifle that is surprisingly accurate and fun to shoot.
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Re: The old "Military Guns"

Post by earlmck »

All I have left are the 7mm Rolling Block and the 30 carbine plus a couple of Arisakas. On the latter note:
awp101 wrote:I've had a couple of T38 and T99 Arisakas but never fired them due to ammo issues. I have a 99 right now that's been sporterized and will eventually be rebarreled. Probably into .257 Roberts.
If these Arisakas are in 6.5 you can make quite serviceable brass out of 35 Remington. Run them through a .308 die first to get the neck started down and then into the 6.5 die (mine is a Lee) and you have something just a scosh small in the base but they have worked fine in the two rifles I have used them in. The big ammo issue with my Arisakas is that both of 'em think they need .268 diameter bullets.
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Re: The old "Military Guns"

Post by JB »

I wouldn't touch a sporterized military rifle on principle alone :) I do collect military rifles, handguns, swords, helmets, etc. in original condition. I can't really say I have a favorite.

The smoothest action would be debatable. Of course while a smooth action feel great in a sporting rifle, it may not be the best thing in a combat rifle. The mauser action was designed with "slop" in order to insure it would still function with filthy with burnt powder, mud, dirt, etc.
Last edited by JB on Fri Nov 18, 2011 8:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The old "Military Guns"

Post by stew71 »

It's a toss-up between my No. 4/Mk 1 1942 SMLE, my 1943 Swiss K-31, and my 1902 C. Gustaf Swedish Mauser. Oh yeah...and my 1956 H&R M1 Garand. None of these shall leave my possession in my lifetime.
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Re: The old "Military Guns"

Post by damienph »

JB wrote:I wouldn't touch a sporterized military rifle on principle alone :)
Which principle would that be? I've seen some sad butcher jobs but I've seen some really fine hunting and target rifles made from surplus military rifles.

Not trying to change your mind, I just can't understand why some won't "touch" sporterized rifles.
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Re: The old "Military Guns"

Post by getitdone1 »

As I've said before, lots of knowledgeable people in this group. No doubt that's part of the reason most of us keep hang'in around.

Does the M-1 Garand have any features superior to the M-14? I rate the 30-06 and 308 cartridges as a tie for combat use.

Too, how fast could you reload that Garand? "Stripper Clip" was it? What, 8 rounds? Of all military guns the Garand is really the one I should own due to it's WWII use. On the other hand I used an M-14 when in the Army. One of each, maybe.

Which manufacturer(s) is prefered with these two guns?

Don
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Re: The old "Military Guns"

Post by Charles »

My favorite would depend on the day, but it would be either a Krag or an 03/03A3
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Re: The old "Military Guns"

Post by jeepnik »

I've never really been a fan of military bolt guns. That's most likely do to the fact that I'm a southpaw. If I had to choose a favorite "old" military rifle, it would be a toss up between the M1 Garand, and the M14. Handguns are a no brainer, as it would be the 1911 hands down. Not exotic, but there it is.

Now if someone were to ask what military firearm I would like to own, the answer is simple. Webley-Fosbery revolver.
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Re: The old "Military Guns"

Post by JReed »

I have a hard time with decisions so I try to have a variety.

Enfield No4 Mk1* S
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1942 IZZY 91/30
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1871 Remington Rolling Block NY State Militia in 45-70
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Re: The old "Military Guns"

Post by 765x53 »

Of all of the long military rifles, the '91 Mauser is the sleekest, best balanced and sweetest handling. It feels like a fine Kentucky long rifle in your hands. It also has the prettiest bayonet.
It is chambered for Mauser's first smokeless cartridge which is also one of the earliest, if not the first rimless military cartridge,and every bit the equal of the .308.
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Re: The old "Military Guns"

Post by getitdone1 »

Jeremy,

That's some hammer on that Remington. Does it require both hands? :D

Don
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Re: The old "Military Guns"

Post by JReed »

getitdone1 wrote:Jeremy,

That's some hammer on that Remington. Does it require both hands? :D

Don
They are huge on the NY guns. No don't need both hands :D The hammer spur was long so that it could be cocked easily while wearing heavy winter gloves in the NY winters.
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Re: The old "Military Guns"

Post by getitdone1 »

Presently watching videos on YouTube about the Schmidt Rubin (K31)

Check this out: I really think I want one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=ignlbn1-wg0

Also interesting:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=fv ... iDgqBqyiCM

Even more interesting!! The following video is about a guy and spotter shooting at a steel target, 1000 yds with open sights. He hit it 2 out of 6 shots. Note the rickety "bench" and also he's pulling the trigger with his middle finger. The bullet drops 42 feet! One thing I didn't like seeing is him having to give the bolt handle an extra tap for complete lock-up. Is this common? Dandy video!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=fv ... Z-Lcvyrifw

Don
Last edited by getitdone1 on Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The old "Military Guns"

Post by afish4570 »

Bargains can be had on sporterized milsurps and make great truck or cast bullet plinking and woods walking guns. The present el cheapo's are the Russian 91's or M44 (not as plentiful now). Bolts are cumbersome and clunky to operate and safety is almost useless.....however they shoot well and most 30 cal molds can be used with varying degrees of sucess.Enfields are fun, smooth actions and good safeties too. The K31 Swiss is probably one of the most inherently accurrate but I just finished getting all the stuff together to hand load cast bullet loads this winter for mine. Once you get shooting them you'll see what I mean...However buy a beater 94 or 336 can be alot of fun too. afish4570 :roll: :roll:
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Re: The old "Military Guns"

Post by OJ »

I like the old Trapdoor Springfield 45-70 - this one has the armory stamp - is 1888 model with the Buffington rear sight (hard to believe that was considered progress) and was made in 1890 - probably issued for the Spanish-American war -

Image

Image

Not only a great old Army rifle but, it adds old west flavor to the room - it even was the issue rifle for Custer and his troops at the Little Big Horn.

This one was given to me by my great uncle - grandfather's brother - who gave me my first horse - at about age four - cowboy life had good moments too - :wink:

However, I'm glad we had such rifles as the M1 Garand for WWII ( I'm old enough that my first issue then was an 03 Springfield which I liked - but was really happy when we got our Garands).
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Re: The old "Military Guns"

Post by MrMurphy »

The M1/M14 thing is an endless debate.

Garand designed what the Ordnance Corps wanted, even if it didn't make sense.

He wanted a 10-round removable magazine and the rifle in .276 Pedersen (ballistically, somewhere close to the modern 6.8 and 6.5 Grendel from what I understand).

The Army demanded and got a closed-bottom magazine and in .30-06 (due to logistics). If the rifle had been adopted as originally conceived the M14 probably never would have been needed.



While some sporterized military pieces can be beautiful (as is one of mine), I do not condone (now) sporterizing existing full military rifles, simply because they aren't making any more. You will never again find a brand new Mauser or Lee-Enfield, etc like you could 30-40 years ago still unissued with thousands more like it. Modern rifles far surpass anything a milsurp can be converted to do, and generally now cheaper. If one has already be converted, sure, it's a nice piece, but don't go butchering an existing issued-condition rifle to make another one. It's not 1950 anymore.
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Re: The old "Military Guns"

Post by SteveR »

getitdone1 wrote: One thing I didn't like seeing is him having to give the bolt an extra tap for complete engagement. Is this common?
Don
Yes it is very common with the Swiss strait pull action. You don't have the extra mechanical force like the Mauser bolt, so if it is not fully seated in the Swiss action then it will not fire. Its actually a safety so that the rifle cannot fire out of battery. So when chambering a round you have to get it fully seated and sometimes a little tap will seat it. I haven't had to do the extra seating when using Swiss surplus GP-11, but when shooting cast I had to do some extra taps to seat the round.

If you do decide to go with one, the K-31's are a great gun, also sometimes you find a troop tag behind the butt plate. Allan's Armory has them from time to time.
http://www.allans-armory.com/aa.php

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Re: The old "Military Guns"

Post by perry owens »

Never owned a bolt action and don't plan to, but I do have a few military rifles.
Image
From the top:
11.15mm Austrian Werndl. Used by Austro-Hungarian army and also issued to German reservists during WW1
577/450 Martinii Henry. Used by Britain to subdue an empire.
0.62 Baker rifle. The longest-serving rifle in the British army
0.577 Snider sporter. Not a military weapon but sold to British officers serving in Africa and India so they could use miltary ammunition for hunting.
0.577 Snider artillery carbine. A breechloading conversion of the Enfield muzzle loader.
Snider cavalry carbine.
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Re: The old "Military Guns"

Post by Borregos »

I always like the Lee Enfield No4's and have had quite a few go through my hands over the years. Recently I got the chance to shoot three different Canadian Ross rifles, and while I could see why they would not stand up to trench warfare all of their actions were really smooth and the triggers were outstanding for a military rifle. :D :D
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Re: The old "Military Guns"

Post by getitdone1 »

Perry Owens,

I really like the looks of the little carbine at the bottom.

Did you see the movie Zulu? There was also a sequel to it with Burt Lancaster. I believe the Martini was used during that time period?

Don
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Re: The old "Military Guns"

Post by DarryH »

Never met a military gun I DIDN'T like !!!!!

Some fun ones, US Krag, 1894 Swede Mauser, 1909 Argentine Mauser,
1891 Argentine Carbine, 1873 "Trapdoor" Springfield,
1903 MKI Springfield, M1 Garand, 1895 Chilean Mauser made in Germany,
1885 Martini Henry, 1861 Springfield, and so many more !!!!

Thanks for the fun post.

Good Shootin!!
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Re: The old "Military Guns"

Post by perry owens »

getitdone1 wrote:Perry Owens,

I really like the looks of the little carbine at the bottom.

Did you see the movie Zulu? There was also a sequel to it with Burt Lancaster. I believe the Martini was used during that time period?

Don
Yes, "Zulu" is a classic movie. Almost as good and on the same theme is "Zulu Dawn" but it's less fashionable because the Zulus won that battle.
The cavalry carbine is by John Rigby, the famous London gunmaker. It is what's called a volunteer model, purchased privately by members of volunteer regiments. It differs from military issue in having better wood and checkering.
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Re: The old "Military Guns"

Post by O.S.O.K. »

Putting together a US milsurp collection today will cost a pretty penny. Especially if you include a 1911...

My favorite milsurp is my 96/38 swede mauser. Accurate, mild recoi, yet hard hitting with deep penetration.
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Re: The old "Military Guns"

Post by Tristan »

"Best" milsurp? Overall in MHO, it's the Swede Mauser in 6.5. Accurate as all get-out, very high quality of fit and finish, coupled with a very capable round for taking medium to large game; the Swedes use it for Moose in Scandinavia, though their Moose are a bit smaller than the North American Moose.

"Smoothest" milsurp? No doubt, hands down, the Krag. The bolt runs like it's riding on precision bearings.

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Re: The old "Military Guns"

Post by olyinaz »

6.5mm Norwegian Krag is the smoothest, but nothing, and I mean NOTHING, is as nice as a Mauser 1898 in all its various forms if you ask me!

If we're talking semi-autos then just about any Kalashnikov based rifle is so much fun they're trying to make 'em illegal. :wink:

Just me talkin'.

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Re: The old "Military Guns"

Post by Grizzly Adams »

I have a 1903 Springfield that I really like, and the Mosin-Nagant is hard to beat. If you are in the business of making folks die for THEIR county, both are hard to beat. :lol:
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Re: The old "Military Guns"

Post by kragluver »

I own a Krag, 03A3, M1917, Enfield No 4, and a Mosin Nagant M38. The Krag is my favorite with the 03A3 a very close second. The Nagant is a hoot to shoot and surprisingly accurate.
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