30-40 AI in an 1895
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- xhogboss
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30-40 AI in an 1895
Seems there's quite an advantage to making my 30-40 into an AI. I'm a relative novice when it comes to working on the 1895 - hoping to tap into the considerable knowledge base here. Since the 30-40 headspaces on the rim, would this involve something as simple as running an AI reamer into the chamber? Or is this a 'remove-the-barrel' and lathe, check headspace as you go sort of thing?
Suggestions for a smith to do the work?
Thanks,
Fred
Suggestions for a smith to do the work?
Thanks,
Fred
Re: 30-40 AI in an 1895
Probably better just to go with a 3006 in the 95.
Re: 30-40 AI in an 1895
I just gotta wonder, why? If you've got a Winchester (not the tang safety type) why screw it up? If you've got a new Browning or Winchester why not just get a .30-06?
Sincerely,
Hobie
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Hobie
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- xhogboss
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Re: 30-40 AI in an 1895
It's a Browning, circa 1984, I believe, that was a gift from a friend. The AI idea was something he'd dreamed of doing to the rifle, and something I'd like to follow-up on. The rifle originally belonged to his uncle and we both agree that it's something he'd approve of.
Besides, it's a bit different than everything else.
Besides, it's a bit different than everything else.
Re: 30-40 AI in an 1895
What's wrong with reaming the chamber out to Ackley Improved? Fred; you, your friend, his uncle and Parker Ackley all think that it would be a great idea. I say go for it and let us know how it shoots.
- xhogboss
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Re: 30-40 AI in an 1895
I know the results would more or less be in the 30-06 range. If I believe some of Ackley's writings, it could rival .30 caliber magnum performance. Seems like a stretch, but going AI does give the 30-40 a 19% boost. I'm thinking it will make a respectable and classy elk rifle.
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Re: 30-40 AI in an 1895
A worthy and interesting project, Fred. That will be a good cartridge. You want to keep in mind that Ackley did his work back when you didn't lightly obtain pressure data and he (and a lot of other experimenters of that era) pushed pressures on beyond what most people would be comfortable with today. I'm from the tail end of that era and it took a few years before it finally occurred to me that if the shots seem just fine (other than a teensy hard extraction ) but the dang cartridge case won't hold onto the primers 'cause the primer pocket expanded too much, maybe your pressures are beyond reasonable. So that's where some of the loads approaching 30 magnum levels would put you: not something you'd want to subject your levergun to as a steady diet.
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Re: 30-40 AI in an 1895
A good project. The chamber should be reamed and polished. It is properly done with the barrel removed. I would contact Bobby Pitchford, www.pcgguns.com
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Re: 30-40 AI in an 1895
I would say that it already is a worthy elk gun but I know how it is sometimes with projects that you just want to do...
I don't think that you can get a straight-on access to the bore with the bolt removed so it'll most likely require that the barrel be uscrewed. With the barrel off, it's a very simple procedure.
I AI'd a 30-30 Winchester - the bore was bad and I'd purchased a replacement barrel and so, the chamber was reemed before I installed it on the receiver. It was easy to do.
I don't think that you can get a straight-on access to the bore with the bolt removed so it'll most likely require that the barrel be uscrewed. With the barrel off, it's a very simple procedure.
I AI'd a 30-30 Winchester - the bore was bad and I'd purchased a replacement barrel and so, the chamber was reemed before I installed it on the receiver. It was easy to do.
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Re: 30-40 AI in an 1895
The largest elk rack by B&C list for many years was taken just west of Crested Butte, Colorado with a Winchester 95 in 30-40 Krag caliber - I've seen both the rack and the rifle - and the rifle was one of the original "slabsides" - so evidently, it is plenty adequate for elk hunting.
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- xhogboss
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Re: 30-40 AI in an 1895
Updating the conversation - I've pulled the trigger and sent the action off to be reamed to 30-40 AI! It will no longer be a safe queen, but is destined to be carried, scratched, rubbed, dinged, used and shot.
Now the hunt starts for brass and some AI dies. I plan to neck-size after fireforming if it will chamber the neck-sized rounds. If not, then I'll resort to FL sizing, but I'd rather not.
I'll let you know how it works out.
Now the hunt starts for brass and some AI dies. I plan to neck-size after fireforming if it will chamber the neck-sized rounds. If not, then I'll resort to FL sizing, but I'd rather not.
I'll let you know how it works out.
Re: 30-40 AI in an 1895
You are going to like it.
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Re: 30-40 AI in an 1895
I am going to leave mine alone.
Re: 30-40 AI in an 1895
3006 will do everything a 30-40AI will and a lot better. Some 30-06 specialty factory loadings turn the 06 into a 300 mag. Lot of versatility without the expense and modifications. But you do what makes u happy
- xhogboss
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Re: 30-40 AI in an 1895
I'd leave that one alone, too!Booger Bill wrote:I am going to leave mine alone.
- xhogboss
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Re: 30-40 AI in an 1895
True enough, but this is a 'project'...tman wrote:3006 will do everything a 30-40AI will and a lot better. Some 30-06 specialty factory loadings turn the 06 into a 300 mag. Lot of versatility without the expense and modifications. But you do what makes u happy
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Re: 30-40 AI in an 1895
The coversion of 1895 Japchester 30-40 to 30-40 Ackley Improved doesn't seem like a swift idea to me. Here are the reasons.
1. The 1895 action is somewhat springy and when pressures get around 44K lbs, cases start to stretch pretty good. Case life gets pretty short after that. Head separations are also down the road with such higher pressure loadings.
2. The 30-40 has the same capacity as the 308 Winchester and can be loaded to all the pressure the 1895 action will deal with in a friendly manner.
3. The value of the rifle will be seriously reduced if rechambered to a wildcat round.
4. Take a look at a 30-40 case fired in the Japchester and compare it to a round fired in a Krag. You will find Browning has already sharpened the shoulder angle and done an improvement.
5. As others said, just buy one in 30-06. Even then you can't hotrod the round in a 1895 action.
1. The 1895 action is somewhat springy and when pressures get around 44K lbs, cases start to stretch pretty good. Case life gets pretty short after that. Head separations are also down the road with such higher pressure loadings.
2. The 30-40 has the same capacity as the 308 Winchester and can be loaded to all the pressure the 1895 action will deal with in a friendly manner.
3. The value of the rifle will be seriously reduced if rechambered to a wildcat round.
4. Take a look at a 30-40 case fired in the Japchester and compare it to a round fired in a Krag. You will find Browning has already sharpened the shoulder angle and done an improvement.
5. As others said, just buy one in 30-06. Even then you can't hotrod the round in a 1895 action.
Re: 30-40 AI in an 1895
Well, it seems like whats done is done, so no use for me to try to tell you not to do it.
I will repectfully suggest that perhaps you should lower your ballistic expectations. Besides what Charles has already said, the 95 Winchester is not very strong in the extraction department, and 30-40 brass is not famous for being really thick in the web.
All that aside, it seem you had your heart set on this conversion, perhaps as a tribute to your friend. I wish you the best, and hope you really enjoy it when it returns.
I will repectfully suggest that perhaps you should lower your ballistic expectations. Besides what Charles has already said, the 95 Winchester is not very strong in the extraction department, and 30-40 brass is not famous for being really thick in the web.
All that aside, it seem you had your heart set on this conversion, perhaps as a tribute to your friend. I wish you the best, and hope you really enjoy it when it returns.
- xhogboss
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Re: 30-40 AI in an 1895
Rifle's back from the smith and assembled. Hope to shoot it this weekend.
Re: 30-40 AI in an 1895
I'd love to see some pictures if you can.
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Re: 30-40 AI in an 1895
Never give up.....if it doesn't quite like the higher pressures, just load it back a hair, and you'll have a dang nice .30 cal that takes pointy bullets Way more gun than a 30WCF, and that's all you really need anyway...right? I'm pumped and looking forward to a report.xhogboss wrote:Rifle's back from the smith and assembled. Hope to shoot it this weekend.
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- xhogboss
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Re: 30-40 AI in an 1895
Shot a couple boxes of 30-40 reloads - gotta put a recoil pad on it! Crescent butt plate bites. Functions well, and the brass looks smooth with no trace of tooling marks from the reamer. Next test will be to see if it will tolerate neck-sizing only or if it needs FL sizing.
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Re: 30-40 AI in an 1895
Interesting project! I would like to find one in 30-40 Krag but convert it to 35 Winchester!
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- xhogboss
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Re: 30-40 AI in an 1895
Bought a set of FL AI dies from Eabco and have some new R-P brass to fireform this weekend. Lots of opinions about full-house loads vs. reduced loads for fireforming - I'll try 19-20 gr. of SR4759 and a 100-110 gr. bullet and check the cases.
Re: 30-40 AI in an 1895
And that right there is the best reason to go ahead and do it!xhogboss wrote:Besides, it's a bit different than everything else.
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Oly
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- xhogboss
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Re: 30-40 AI in an 1895
L-R; New 30-40 Krag case, 30-40 Ackley fireformed/sized, 30-40 loaded with 100 gr. Speer Plinker over 20.0 gr. SR4759 for fireforming
I'll try this load for fireforming this weekend and see if it forms the brass to the chamber. If not, I'll have to go to a higher pressure load.
Re: 30-40 AI in an 1895
Someone else might have remembered something different but as I recall one of the things people bring up who are fans of the AI conversions is that in a pinch they will always fire standard caliber loads in the AI chambered rifle. That said I see no reason for anything other than a standard .30-40 load for fireforming.
If you're gonna be stupid ya gotta be tough-
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- xhogboss
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Re: 30-40 AI in an 1895
True enough about the ability to use standard loads or factory ammo - in a pinch.
As for the reason(s); I have 120 cases to fireform. My shoulder would rather take 120 lighter hits than 120 heavier ones at one sitting. I have a coffee can full of SR4759 that I can't use in anything else I load. I have a bunch of the Plinkers that I can't use on game or non-game animals in my part of the PRK. When I fireformed with standard (full-power) rounds, I had some cases blow out/rupture at the shoulder. I want to see if a different pressure curve/lower chamber pressure will still form the cases without the blow outs.
The 'improved' part of AI means the ability to increase the performance of the 30-40 Krag round - I have no desire to use the standard 30-40 load in the field or to waste what I consider to be more valuable components at the bench.
As for the reason(s); I have 120 cases to fireform. My shoulder would rather take 120 lighter hits than 120 heavier ones at one sitting. I have a coffee can full of SR4759 that I can't use in anything else I load. I have a bunch of the Plinkers that I can't use on game or non-game animals in my part of the PRK. When I fireformed with standard (full-power) rounds, I had some cases blow out/rupture at the shoulder. I want to see if a different pressure curve/lower chamber pressure will still form the cases without the blow outs.
The 'improved' part of AI means the ability to increase the performance of the 30-40 Krag round - I have no desire to use the standard 30-40 load in the field or to waste what I consider to be more valuable components at the bench.
- xhogboss
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Re: 30-40 AI in an 1895
20.0 gr. of SR4759 and the 100 gr. Plinkers worked well for fireforming. Max COAL to work in the mag is 3.195, and I want to use a 180 gr. bullet. Seated a 180 gr. Nosler E-Tip and a Barnes 180 gr. TSX; Nosler gives me 55.23 gr. (water weight) case capacity and the Barnes gives me 56.26 gr. Powley and Blackwell both work out to a starting load of 48.5 gr. of IMR4320. I'll load some of both bullets, get the chronograph out and we'll see how they do.
- xhogboss
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Re: 30-40 AI in an 1895
Dang 'enter' key!...
Last edited by xhogboss on Sun Aug 05, 2012 9:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- xhogboss
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Re: 30-40 AI in an 1895
Range results: Loaded up two different loads of IMR4320 with the two bullets I intend to use, grabbed the chronograph and off to the range we went. No extraction problems, no pressure signs....
48.5 gr. with the Barnes TSX 180 gr. gave me an average velocity of 2652
48.5 gr. with the Nosler E-Tip 180 gr. gave me an average velocity of 2658
49.0 gr. with the Barnes = 2691 average
49.0 gr. with the Nosler = 2699 average
Pretty respectable and just below the 300 mag velocities of the day. Mr. Ackley may have been on to something, after all.
Next trip will be the same loads of Varget to see if a more modern powder offers any advantage.
48.5 gr. with the Barnes TSX 180 gr. gave me an average velocity of 2652
48.5 gr. with the Nosler E-Tip 180 gr. gave me an average velocity of 2658
49.0 gr. with the Barnes = 2691 average
49.0 gr. with the Nosler = 2699 average
Pretty respectable and just below the 300 mag velocities of the day. Mr. Ackley may have been on to something, after all.
Next trip will be the same loads of Varget to see if a more modern powder offers any advantage.
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Re: 30-40 AI in an 1895
Those are nice looking cartridges, glad your plan came together so good.
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Re: 30-40 AI in an 1895
Those are good velocities with the 180's. You are right there with 308's and 30-06's.
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- xhogboss
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Re: 30-40 AI in an 1895
I'm pretty happy with the results, thanks. It will be interesting to see how the loads develop.
Re: 30-40 AI in an 1895
@xbosshog. How did the 30-40 AI work out to present? How is brass life?
Thanks,
Matt
Thanks,
Matt
Re: 30-40 AI in an 1895
The Ackley Improved rounds are good, but to be honest the performance gains usually fall significantly short of the claims. Back when PO was developing them convenient chronography for the handloader didn't exist, resulting in all sorts of methods designed to calculate velocities. As technology was created and constantly improved, it became clear that those early figures were pretty optimistic. Experiments I carried out in the '80s on a .30-30 before and after being reamed to .30-30 AI showed this clearly.
Not to say there WASN'T some improvement, but I personally decided that the cost was not worth the effort. These days, if your rifle likes the Leverevolution gummy-tipped loads, you're getting pretty much what PO was getting, and likely a bit better. Still , a rifle chambered for any AI cartridge is an interesting proposition and a conversation-starter, and if a shooter had the hankerin' for one I'd say go for it.
Not to say there WASN'T some improvement, but I personally decided that the cost was not worth the effort. These days, if your rifle likes the Leverevolution gummy-tipped loads, you're getting pretty much what PO was getting, and likely a bit better. Still , a rifle chambered for any AI cartridge is an interesting proposition and a conversation-starter, and if a shooter had the hankerin' for one I'd say go for it.
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Re: 30-40 AI in an 1895
My foray into the AI was with the 348. Yes, it did make one heck of a thumper....on both ends. There are a couple of downsides regardless of the performance aspects. First, the sharper shoulder and less tampered body does not feed as well in a lever action. Second, the shorter neck limits the use of longer cast bullets such as 180-190 grain 30-30 bullets, 220 30-40 bullets, and 250-270 348 bullets. Limits may not be the right word but mine sure doesn't handle the longer bullets as well as it did before it was converted; just too much of the naked bullet down in the powder space unsupported by the neck. Jacketed bullets are still fine; just the cast bullets were hindered.
Re: 30-40 AI in an 1895
I’ve read lots of PO Ackley including his 2 vol reloading manuals. Don’t believe Ackley was a hot rodder or at least not primarily. His minimum body taper was determined by trial and error designed to slow or eliminate the forward flow of brass while also facilitating good feeding/extraction. The 40 degree should was also determined similarly although there may be some additional theoretical advantages he describes in vol 1 of his reloading manual. One of the primary benefits, especially with lever rifles that have rear of bolt locking lugs, was Improved brass life.
Im not too worried about velocity gains. I’d do the conversion just for brasslife if the benefit was good enough and maybe for the he’ll of it since there is very very little info about Improved case life on the web. The discussion is always about velocity boost. The 348 Winchester is prolly a great candidate for Ackley-ising minus the feeding problems (Ackley specifically recommends the 450 Alaskan [348 win based wildcat] over the 450 AI in a model 71 because of the in-depth modifications Ackley states are required); too much taper supposedly reduces case life. 300 H&H is such an example. In the case of. 348 Win, I’ll bet lots of the velocity gains are due to hand loading a bit hotter than factory although case capacity is significantly increased and ‘efficiency’ (velocity per unit of propellant) is also reduced. Lb for lb, not sure you get drastic velocity improvements for any improved cartridge. The 300 Weatherby and 300 Ackley are pretty hot Improved 300 H&Hs (put a 300 H&H in a Weatherby or Ackley chamber), but check out the velocity gain per unit propellant and decrease in barrel life (important to me as I end up shooting the barrel out on many of my rifles). Ackley specifically recommends against such top fuel dragsters.
A side note for Ackley readers or tinkerers, One of Ackley’s experiments, described in vol 1 of his reloading manual, he eliminated bolt thrust on a Winchester model 1894 (if I remember correctly) with the 30-30 AI. Think there was some modest/negligible velocity improvement, and decreased efficiency, but if true, brass life could be massively improved for rifle brass in a 40k psi round that get enhanced case stretch due to the rear locking lugs design. In his in-depth experiment, he removed the locking lug on the model 1894 and the bolt supposedly did not open upon firing.
Anyone have hard data on Improved brass life? 30-40 AI in a model 1895 would be ideal data.
Thanks,
Matt
Im not too worried about velocity gains. I’d do the conversion just for brasslife if the benefit was good enough and maybe for the he’ll of it since there is very very little info about Improved case life on the web. The discussion is always about velocity boost. The 348 Winchester is prolly a great candidate for Ackley-ising minus the feeding problems (Ackley specifically recommends the 450 Alaskan [348 win based wildcat] over the 450 AI in a model 71 because of the in-depth modifications Ackley states are required); too much taper supposedly reduces case life. 300 H&H is such an example. In the case of. 348 Win, I’ll bet lots of the velocity gains are due to hand loading a bit hotter than factory although case capacity is significantly increased and ‘efficiency’ (velocity per unit of propellant) is also reduced. Lb for lb, not sure you get drastic velocity improvements for any improved cartridge. The 300 Weatherby and 300 Ackley are pretty hot Improved 300 H&Hs (put a 300 H&H in a Weatherby or Ackley chamber), but check out the velocity gain per unit propellant and decrease in barrel life (important to me as I end up shooting the barrel out on many of my rifles). Ackley specifically recommends against such top fuel dragsters.
A side note for Ackley readers or tinkerers, One of Ackley’s experiments, described in vol 1 of his reloading manual, he eliminated bolt thrust on a Winchester model 1894 (if I remember correctly) with the 30-30 AI. Think there was some modest/negligible velocity improvement, and decreased efficiency, but if true, brass life could be massively improved for rifle brass in a 40k psi round that get enhanced case stretch due to the rear locking lugs design. In his in-depth experiment, he removed the locking lug on the model 1894 and the bolt supposedly did not open upon firing.
Anyone have hard data on Improved brass life? 30-40 AI in a model 1895 would be ideal data.
Thanks,
Matt
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Re: 30-40 AI in an 1895
Not a 95 Win chambering, but I think 22 Hornets should ALL be redone to the 'Ackley' version or the 'Kilborne' version. I can't see an advantage of the 'plain' version.
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Re: 30-40 AI in an 1895
Back when I was in school I picked up a very nice Mexican Mauser action. Wasnt sure what I would make it, one day while visiting a shop in Raton NM the Smith there had a Douglas barrel that he had threaded, chambered and turned to fit a Mexican. The barrel had a spot in it that the original owner wasnt happy with so I picked it up for 75 bucks. So I had a Mexican in 257 AI. yes some velocity gain over the Roberts and I haven't lost a case! The plus with AI chambers is that you can shoot normal parent cartridges which could save a hunt!
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Re: 30-40 AI in an 1895
Very nice. How many reloads do you get per case roughly. How many reloads so far?GunnyMack wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2019 4:48 pm Back when I was in school I picked up a very nice Mexican Mauser action. Wasnt sure what I would make it, one day while visiting a shop in Raton NM the Smith there had a Douglas barrel that he had threaded, chambered and turned to fit a Mexican. The barrel had a spot in it that the original owner wasnt happy with so I picked it up for 75 bucks. So I had a Mexican in 257 AI. yes some velocity gain over the Roberts and I haven't lost a case! The plus with AI chambers is that you can shoot normal parent cartridges which could save a hunt!
The Nx57mm cases on the 6mm Rem, 257, 7x57, etc have plenty of neck, relative to 308 win based cases, I think is nice for reloading.
I’ve got a cz550 in 7x57mm I recently acquired. Was considering Ackleyizing or rechambering to 280 Rem AI. Think the 280 will be less in cost. Smith will have to remove a thread to set the chamber back for 7x57 AI.
In any case, I’ll likely Acklyise one of my rifles and shoot the hell out of it to get solid brasslife data. Bottom line; was Ackley right?
I’m told reading pressure signs for lots of these improved/wildcat cartridges such as AI, Gibbs, etc are tricky to read. I figure better to gauge minute case head expansion. Supposedly, by the time you get visible flowing brass, primer issues, etc you are well into danger excessive pressure ranges because of reduced bolt thrust.
I really like Winchester leverguns like 1886, 1894, 1895, 71, etc. think an 95 in 30-40, 30-06 might be ideal just keep the pressure down. I once came across a 95 in 7x57 AI. Too pricey at the time.
In any case,
Matt
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Re: 30-40 AI in an 1895
Honestly I couldn't say how many times these have been reloaded. If I had to guess 30-40 times maybe. I did find that this rifle shoots better at 200 than it does at 100. Once the bullets 'go to sleep' they group very well. I've tried all brands of bullets and all weights and its always the same 3-4" at 100 but half or less than that at 200.
Once tried 60 gr 25-20 bullets out of it- very high velocity, like 3800+ but half the time the jackets separated in flight.
Once tried 60 gr 25-20 bullets out of it- very high velocity, like 3800+ but half the time the jackets separated in flight.
BROWN LABS MATTER !!
Re: 30-40 AI in an 1895
A
Last edited by mstacker on Wed Oct 02, 2019 5:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: 30-40 AI in an 1895
A
Last edited by mstacker on Wed Oct 02, 2019 5:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: 30-40 AI in an 1895
A
Last edited by mstacker on Wed Oct 02, 2019 5:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: 30-40 AI in an 1895
Good info. 20+ Is decently impressive. On a good bolt action like a Mauser I’m betting in general you can good brass life with decent brass if you keep the pressure low-ish, me thinks.GunnyMack wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2019 7:47 pm Honestly I couldn't say how many times these have been reloaded. If I had to guess 30-40 times maybe. I did find that this rifle shoots better at 200 than it does at 100. Once the bullets 'go to sleep' they group very well. I've tried all brands of bullets and all weights and its always the same 3-4" at 100 but half or less than that at 200.
Bugger. Not sure what that is about.
Matt
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Re: 30-40 AI in an 1895
The jackets are too thin for that velocity range. Designed for 25-20 velocities, not for 3800fps.
BROWN LABS MATTER !!