Winchester 1894 38-55

[Old Savage]

A friend who is a knowledgeable dealer has acquired a 117 year old #10xxx Winchester in 38-55. he say it is in the patina, excellent working order and excellent shape 24" octagonal barrel - not for sale right now - what to think? Value, rarity etc.?

[pwl44m]

Value- up there. Rarity- not sure it's that Rare. What do I think- I think I want One. Have My Eyes on One. I'm thinking a little steep at $1800. It is the only One on My bucket List.

[CBinNH]

24" barrel instead of 26"? It would be special order or chopped I think.

[Old Savage]

CB - not sure about that. Maybe 26" I'll check on that fact.

[kimwcook]

Price is subjective and therefore you could see a wide range of answers. I won't venture a guess, but I too want one. I think the 1894 has one of the most aesthetic appeal of the levers.

[bunyan]

An 1894 with octagon barrel in .38-55 is on my bucket list as well! I doubt I'd be picky about the barrel length. But I'm no collector, either.

[pwl44m]

Glad U posted this OS. I will check on the one I am watching as to 24 or 26 inch barrel. It has been in the store for quite some time.
I haven't read up on them, just know that I want a 38-55.

[Sarge]

I have the hankering for a modern 38-55 I can use the warm loads in, or a .375 Winchester. Not a need, mind you, just a want.

[kimwcook]

Here's my post 64 '94. A Winchester Legendary Frontiersmen in 38-55. I still want an ole original 1894 w/octagon bbl. in 38-55. This will have to do until that happens.

[CBinNH]

OS,
Let me start by stating I am far from an expert in old Winchesters. I have owned a few & handled more. I bought a 1894 38/55 26" round barrel 1905 vintage around 5 years ago for $900 at a LGS. Traces of blue left on the receiver, barrel starting to brown, mag tube thin blue. Bore was dark but showed strong rifling. Good wood other than numerous small dings, no cracks or splinters. I had 2 dealers of antique firearms give me their thoughts on it. One said it was a 60% gun, worth $1500, the other called it a 40% gun worth $1200. Unfortunately, I got overzealous in cleaning the bore & discovered it was mildly pitted. Before I scrubbed it, it was a respectable shooter. After, not so good. All it would group anymore were Hawk bullets which were expensive. It was a blackpowder steel barrel, so I didn’t shoot the regular jacketed in it. Cast would not shoot period after cleaning. I sold it on Gunbroker for $900 a year or so later after spending hundreds on custom cast bullets & “long brass” before it was made by Starline. The buyer was pleased with his purchase. His wants were different than mine. Is the one you are considering a blackpowder barrel? Is the bore good? Chamber dimensions & oversize bores can be issues too. Sorry for my long winded ramblings. Just thought I’d pass along my experience with what was supposed to be my “dream” gun after questioning the barrel length earlier. I'd still like another old timer, but with a good bore.

[Old Savage]

CB. it is first year production so I guess BP. 60-70% is my friend's rating of it and I think he said the bore is good. I am sure I will get a chance to see it but for now I think he is keeping it.

[Pete44ru]

Fred, that Rifle should be a Second Model, introduced into production in mid 1895, the one with the cartridge guide screw heads INSIDE the receiver pointing out, rather than showing on the outsides of the receiver.
A 1st year rifle would be a First Model, with the guide screw heads outside, pointing inward.

24" barrel became common on extralight varieties, after about 1896; Short Rifles also had short(er) forends (than standard Rifle length).

.38-55 was one of the two introductory Model 1894 chamberings, standard barrels were of "ordnance steel" - any in this SN range marked ?nickel steel" are definitely Special Order.

BTW - This SN range also saw the introduction of other chamberings - .25-35 & .30WCF (1896) & .32 Spec( 1902-03).

.

[Old Savage]

Pete thanks for the info. My Winchester Dates of Manufacture shows 14759 made in 1894. Do you have different info.

[Pete44ru]

Here's my info, Fred - If the Rifle you're looking at (SN 14,759) doesn't have the cartridge guide screw heads visible on the outside of the receiver walls, then it's Second Model 1894, which could not have been made in 1894, since that type didn't come into existance until mid-1895, in the 3,000 SN range.

If the Second Model, aka SN 3500(?), = 1895, IMHO, that should put SN 14,759 into mid-late in 1896.

FWIW, The Winchester Factory Polishing Room records show SN 14311 as 7-28-1896. (Madis was in error)

http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... 40#p451540

Ne' pas, Bro ?

.

[Old Savage]

Ah, so conflicting records. 1037x would I suppose put it about maybe fall 94 according to that little maroon book I have by George Madis - I will look at what you suggest.
14759 is just the number of rifles that were made in 1894 according to Madis.

OK Pete, I looked back at the CFM numbers and that would likely put the manufacture about the summer of 1895. I see what you are saying reading that other post.

[Pete44ru]

From the Polishing Room records:

SN 7566 = 10-17-1895
SN 11020 = 12-10-1895

.

[Old Savage]

That should put it in November of 1895. A scorpio - I could like that

[Pete44ru]

Unless, of course, it was polished out of sequence............ . . . . .

.

[pokey]

there should also be a date on the bottom of the
barrel, should you wish to remove the forearm.


i forgot pics,
can't let kimwcook be the only one.

specialollie1.JPG

sprecialollie3.JPG

[madman4570]

How bout a little shorter one?
http://www.ktpguns.com/interior.php/pid/28/gid/145665
One thing is these guys are very conservative on their ratings (if they say 85%,more like 90%)
They also will come down some! I deal with them all the time and they are awesome!

[kimwcook]

Very nice, Pokey. What ya got? That's some really nice wood and I'm assuming it's in 38-55? Looks like commemorative wood, but there's no medallion.

[Sixgun]

[quote= "kimwcook"]

[/quote]

Law Dawg,
You boys still have snow out there? -----------Sixgun

Thats a nice '94. If I was going to get a modern 38-55, thats the one I would get.


O.S.,The 38-55 in the 1894 is not rare, but somewhat scarce as (don't have my notes handy) about 90+ of the total production of '94's were made in 30-30.

But............what is true is that people who have 1894's in 38-55 tend to hold on to them where 30-30's are always in the cash flow market. The 38-55's that are on the market are usually ones that unknowledgable/don't care/recent estate buys owners have and want to sell. Over the years I've owned about a dozen of them and kept trading up until the ones I have now are keepers.

As for value, a decent 50-70% gun with a nice bore in standard configuration can be had for about 12-14.

You want to be able to tell the percentage of a old gun compared to how it originally came from the factory--------easy------Go grab a new levergun out of your vault and set it next to the "old gun"and start comparing. Most owners of a gun rate them high while a buyer rates 'em low.

Thats why in the collecting/investing field, we always say "condition sells".-----------Sixgun

[Old Savage]

Six, - knew you would know the stuff. This was is in very nice working order and is largely brown, good rifling for the age I would say and the action works very well and is nicely tight. only 38-55 is marked on the barrel and I think we have determined through CFM numbers that it was made about 11/1895. Not a stunner by any means looks to me it might have has a bit of rust here and there and the crescent but seems lightly rusted. Looks like a good shooter and all the parts are there and look to be original. I thought it was a neat to handle one of the very early ones - it does have the cartridge rail screws on the outside.

What would it cost to restore something like this to original. Obviously not of high collector value. I think they have the value pegged about right where you say and my friend did somewhat better of course.

[pokey]

Very nice, Pokey. What ya got? That's some really nice wood and I'm assuming it's in 38-55? Looks like commemorative wood, but there's no medallion.

it's an oliver winchester comm. with all the gold bling removed,and cch receiver. yup 38-55.

[kimwcook]

Very nice, Pokey. What ya got? That's some really nice wood and I'm assuming it's in 38-55? Looks like commemorative wood, but there's no medallion.

it's an oliver winchester comm. with all the gold bling removed,and cch receiver. yup 38-55.

Nice.

[Sixgun]

What would it cost to restore something like this to original. Obviously not of high collector value. I think they have the value pegged about right where you say and my friend did somewhat better of course.

O.S.,
Aaahhhh, leave it alone. An 1894 made before 1898 is considered "antique" and therfore worth at least 20-25% more than one made after '98.

Restore? If its done right, it will set you back about 35 c-notes. Anything else is a dead give-a-way and therefore will be worth less than what you paid. It OK though to "spruce it up" by steel wooling off any oxidation from the metal and adding some stock oil to the wood. I also like to strip the action and get off the 100 years of congealed oil and sludge. This in no way hurts anything and gives back that "smoothness". Shooting 500-1000 cast bullets through it helps to shine up the bore. Some guys will spend a Saturday evening with JB bore polish but I feel shooting the cast bullets is more fun and gives me time to think, "Is this a keeper" --------------Sixgun

[Pete44ru]

[it does have the cartridge rail screws on the outside. ]

Fred, IMO that would make the action a First Model, that most likely stayed in the bottom of a parts bin (un-numbered), and not used/numbered until after Winchester changed over to making the Second Model.

Didja ever recheck the 24" barrel length ?

.

[Old Savage]

Pete, I must stand corrected here and thank you for the info. Went back and looked again and it does have there screws inside pointing out as you noted making it a second model. Screw heads are on the inside.


Pete44ru
"Fred, that Rifle should be a Second Model, introduced into production in mid 1895, the one with the cartridge guide screw heads INSIDE the receiver pointing out, rather than showing on the outsides of the receiver.
A 1st year rifle would be a First Model, with the guide screw heads outside, pointing inward."

I think this rifle will end up being totally restored with CCH by Turnbull. That is what the author wants to have and someone else can be concerned with the value when he is gone. Should be a beautiful piece.

[Mike D.]

Of the 353,999 1894s where records are available the ratio was as follows:

4:5 (78.19%) were rifles
1:5 (21.2%) were carbines
1:2 (45.92%) was a .30 W.C.F. (162,568)
1:5 (22.8%) was a .38-55 (80,734)
1:9 (11.31%) was a .32-40 (40,023)
1:9 (10.45%) was a 25-35 W.C.F. (36,999)
1:11 (8.77%) was a .32 W.S. (31,050)

As you can see, the number of .30 W.C.F. 1894s was over twice that of the .38-55. That being said, the .38-55 is the second in numbers produced.

[longarm4146]

a first year production 94 in the condition you described will be a fairly valuable and desirable rifle. Pete's spot on I think with dates based on recent research of polishing rooms records found at the Cody museum. All of the "antique" production rifles
( up to 53941 I think) command a premium. I bought a takedown model that got me started on old lever guns that according to Madis was a 1898 gun, but according to polishing room records it is unfortunately a 1900 gun. Luckily I got it at a price where thats not as important as the long range lever rifle sidematches that have bee won with that rifle, state and regional level. Regardless of whether or not you can acquire the rifle you mentioned someones a mighty lucky guy.

[KirkD]

OS, I have a fine old Winchester 1894 38-55. According to Madis, it was made in 1896 but according to the Cody letter I got for it, it was made in 1899. It has a full, 26-inch octagon barrel. Mine is in very nice shape, but the dark blue has turned to a dark brown. For a rifle as you have described, and assuming it has not had the barrel shortened, I would put the value at somewhere between $700 and $1,200. I actually paid $650 for mine, but that was about 7 years ago.

If your friend chooses to have it restored by Turnbull, it will be a beauty when it is done. The receivers were not originally case hardened for the Model 1894. If he decides to case harden it, he may want to go all the way and get deluxe wood on it too. Take a good look at the bore, especially the first inch or two forward of the chamber. If it is significantly pitted, he may want a reline or, if it is cut down, he may want a new octagon barrel machined to original 1894 specs. Mike Hunter of Hunter restorations might be another person for your friend to check out. Mike makes barrels and does full restorations, and I think his prices are slightly lower since he does not have the same overhead that Turnbull has with all his outstanding craftsmen and beautiful shop.

[Old Savage]

Thanks fellows - I appreciate all the replies and info. I have seen some of the others he has had done. Looking forward to seeing this one in that state.

[Pete44ru]

[Mike Hunter of Hunter restorations might be another person for your friend to check out. Mike makes barrels and does full restorations, and I think his prices are slightly lower since he does not have the same overhead that Turnbull has with all his outstanding craftsmen and beautiful shop.]

+1 - AND, Mike's a fellow board member here ! (Charity begins @ home )

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