Is there such a thing as a "brush" gun (or, really - bullet)

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Wed Jul 13, 2011 12:18 pm

We all talk about how a large-caliber heavy bullet is for use in "brush" country, but I recall maybe 20 years ago reading an article in one of the gun magazines where someone actually set up a test to see if there was an advantage.

I think they took a big box full of twigs or scrap dowels or some such thing, and set up a target behind it, shooting 5-shot groups (since they couldn't see the target).

If I recall, the results were basically that the caliber didn't matter much at all; a .308 did just as well as a .458. . . as long as the bullet construction was appropriate for 'brush'.

I also seem to recall they tested different velocities of bullets in the several calibers, and that was a factor - the faster they went the more they tended to fragment or destabilize, which makes sense I guess.

If those two things are correct (and if I even recall them correctly), it would seem like that in terms of problems hitting your target when firing through 'brush', there is no real advantage of a .45-70 vs. a .22 Hornet. However what I don't recall the article going into, is the fact that if you're shooting a one-shot 'group' on the vitals of a whitetail, vs. a 5-shot group on paper, you not only need to have accuracy, but power - whether measured in ft-lbs, TKO's, momentum, or whatever, and you also need reasonable cross-sectional density. So that .450" 405 grain bullet vs. the .308" 183 grain bullet (which have the same CSD) will be at the same point energy-wise and CSD-wise IF the lighter bullet is going 1.49 times as fast.

If there is a velocity 'ceiling' above-which the 'brush' deflection is significantly worse, then you'd have to at least stick with a bullet heavy enough to deliver the necessary 'energy' to your game at or below that velocity. The only way the larger-caliber (thus heavier) bullet would NOT have an advantage would be if that velocity 'ceiling' were actually lower for the larger-caliber bullets, and that seems unlikely.

The other factors I didn't recall the article dealing with were whether or not longer bullets would destabilize more (vs. fat nearly-spherical ones), which seems likely, and the fact that a bullet of say .458 caliber vs. .308 caliber would be (.458*.458)/(.308*.308)=2.2 times as likely to actually strike a branch en route to the target.

Anyway, I just always thought is was interesting that we take for granted the 'brush-busting' factor of short, stout bullets, yet the one and only article I have ever seen that put the theory to the test seemed to refute at least part of the assumption.

Has anyone here seen that article or a similar one where 'brush-busting' was actually put to a test...?

Post by **Hobie** » Wed Jul 13, 2011 1:19 pm

Yep, several such articles.

Terry Murbach · Post by **Terry Murbach** » Wed Jul 13, 2011 1:22 pm

YES, SEVERAL TIMES OVER THE DECADES INCLUDING A WEEK AGO ON THE GUN NUTS. ALL ARRIVED AT THE SAME CONCLUSION; IT DOES NOT WORK !!! THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A " BRUSHBUSTING " BULLET, PERSE', IN ANY WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM.

Rimfire McNutjob · Post by **Rimfire McNutjob** » Wed Jul 13, 2011 1:23 pm

As I recall, and I'm at work right now and can't look in my references, O'Conner and company did some testing to identify the ideal "brush" gun and settled on the 71 in .348 with the 250 grain load. I could be wrong though, it might have been the 200 grain. I'm sure it was NOT a SilverTip though. In any case, I don't recall what the criteria was. I just thought it was interesting as I'm a 71 fan and it kind of stuck in my mind. The 250 grain .348 load fits along your line of thinking with the high SD and moderate velocity.

I don't recall what other gun/cartridge combinations were tested. I certainly wouldn't discount a 45-70 with a 400 grain JSP or hardcast WFN humming along about 1800fps. I think type of round would smash through some junk and tend to keep a straight bearing as well.

oldgerboy · Post by **oldgerboy** » Wed Jul 13, 2011 2:08 pm

The test I remember best was in Guns and Ammo, I think, about 35 years ago. The author crafted a box with half inch dowels spaced so that at least two would always be hit. Factory .45-70 was lousy ... the winner was the .222.
My personal belief is that unless there is some type of emergency the animal deserves the respect of me taking a shot that would produce the quickest kill possible. Shooting through a bunch of sticks, leaves or what have you does not qualify. I can say that having to let a nice eight point go because of brush is tough to swallow but it feels good in the soul.
I agree with Terry.

adirondakjack · Post by **adirondakjack** » Wed Jul 13, 2011 2:08 pm

A big bus, moving fairly slow, will be less perturbed by nose damage than a "hotrod" moving fast.

.45-70, 405gr or .50-70, 450 grain, either of em at right about 1200 fps will plow on through even wrist sized trees with little or no path deflection.

Pisgah · Post by **Pisgah** » Wed Jul 13, 2011 2:22 pm

Regardless of caliber, bullet weight, or speed -- if your bullet hits something, even a blade of grass, between you and the target, there is no predicting where it will end up. Might plow straight ahead. Might take off at a crazy angle. The definition of "random".

stew71 · Post by **stew71** » Wed Jul 13, 2011 3:48 pm

adirondakjack wrote:A big bus, moving fairly slow, will be less perturbed by nose damage than a "hotrod" moving fast.

.45-70, 405gr or .50-70, 450 grain, either of em at right about 1200 fps will plow on through even wrist sized trees with little or no path deflection.

I seriously doubt that. The bullet will deform upon impact, altering its ballistics and its trajectory.

tman · Post by **tman** » Wed Jul 13, 2011 3:57 pm

I always look at a brush gun as i that is short and light and easy to handle in the brush, regardless of caliber. A 71 carbine and a bigbore 94 fit the description for me.

86er · Post by **86er** » Wed Jul 13, 2011 4:03 pm

I've done two things in this regard. 1) I arranged a cardboard box and shoved tonge depressors through that were one inch wide, one half inch apart width and depth througout the box. There were 10 "sticks" across and 30 deep. Expanding bullets that were cup and core were used. 243 happend to turn right after a ways. 308 165 gr and 45-70 405 gr factory loads went just about equal (but clearly the 45-70 was larger and heavier when it came to rest). The 30-30 150 happened to tumble over and come to rest facing the way it went in. This is hardly conclusive as it was a one-shot per caliber test but the range was equal and the sticks were replaced after each shooting. A 12 gauge HP lead slug imploded the box and could not be fairly measured and was not re-tested. 2) I shot at an animal with the video rolling over my shoulder. It appeared to be a clear shot through the scope. A miss was the result. Upon frame by frame playback, the bullet (a 405 gr Kodiak at 2000 fps) hit a hanging vine the thickness of a pencil about 12 yards from the muzzle. I just couldnt see it in the scope. Obviously, it threw the bullet completely off target. I've shot lots of bullets through some grass but never twigs or more. I'm not confident any bullet would make it. I think it is more likely a well constructed bullet, and a solid for sure, would go through a small hard tree of minimal diameter than the same bullet continuing to fly straight after encountering multiple smaller obstacles that move with the impact. So that addresses caliber. As for rifles, to me a "brush gun" has a lot of power at ranges up to 100 yards and the rifle is short, quick to shoulder, a repeater (moreso pump, semi auto or lever) and has quick sights either open, peep or low powered scope.

adirondakjack · Post by **adirondakjack** » Wed Jul 13, 2011 4:04 pm

oops doubletap

adirondakjack · Post by **adirondakjack** » Wed Jul 13, 2011 4:04 pm

stew71 wrote:
adirondakjack wrote:A big bus, moving fairly slow, will be less perturbed by nose damage than a "hotrod" moving fast.

.45-70, 405gr or .50-70, 450 grain, either of em at right about 1200 fps will plow on through even wrist sized trees with little or no path deflection.
I seriously doubt that. The bullet will deform upon impact, altering its ballistics and its trajectory.

It's a matter of degree. A big, heavy, slow moving bullet will deflect LESS than a faster bullet for which aerodynamics are more important. A .22-250 at 4K fps might well go off the rez after nicking a blade of grass, but a buffalo gun bullet will tend to stay on course, plowing ahead, even through some pretty stiff obstacles. I've shot a lot of "barrier tests", and seen some screwy things, but all in all, heavier, longer and relatively slower wants to plow ahead, carried by momentum, and is less impacted by deformation.

Ever stick yer hand out a car window at 30 mph? How about at 75? When we compare 1200fps and 3000, we're talking the same kinds of relative importance of a "clean" bullet through the air. Further, the big, slow bus wants to keep moving, relying on momentum, and not so much dependant on velocity as the very fast "high power" rifle bullet.

Try this. Purposely file a typical, "chisel" shape (like a woman's lipstick) on the nose of both a .30-06 bullet and a .45-70, and see which one even hits the paper.

adirondakjack · Post by **adirondakjack** » Wed Jul 13, 2011 4:10 pm

86er wrote:I've done two things in this regard. 1) I arranged a cardboard box and shoved tonge depressors through that were one inch wide, one half inch apart width and depth througout the box. There were 10 "sticks" across and 30 deep. Expanding bullets that were cup and core were used. 243 happend to turn right after a ways. 308 165 gr and 45-70 405 gr factory loads went just about equal (but clearly the 45-70 was larger and heavier when it came to rest). The 30-30 150 happened to tumble over and come to rest facing the way it went in. This is hardly conclusive as it was a one-shot per caliber test but the range was equal and the sticks were replaced after each shooting. A 12 gauge HP lead slug imploded the box and could not be fairly measured and was not re-tested. 2) I shot at an animal with the video rolling over my shoulder. It appeared to be a clear shot through the scope. A miss was the result. Upon frame by frame playback, the bullet (a 405 gr Kodiak at 2000 fps) hit a hanging vine the thickness of a pencil about 12 yards from the muzzle. I just couldnt see it in the scope. Obviously, it threw the bullet completely off target. I've shot lots of bullets through some grass but never twigs or more. I'm not confident any bullet would make it. I think it is more likely a well constructed bullet, and a solid for sure, would go through a small hard tree of minimal diameter than the same bullet continuing to fly straight after encountering multiple smaller obstacles that move with the impact. So that addresses caliber. As for rifles, to me a "brush gun" has a lot of power at ranges up to 100 yards and the rifle is short, quick to shoulder, a repeater (moreso pump, semi auto or lever) and has quick sights either open, peep or low powered scope.

Sure yer 405 missed. The vine being very close to the muzzle needed only deflect the bulet a very little amount to send if awry. The closer the obstacle is to the target the better, of course, and the closer it is to the shooter, the worse. I HAVE shot a running deer (wounded by another hunter) with a common 12 ga slug, shooting THROUGH a balsam about 3" in diameter that was maybe 10 yards from the deer, and still hit the boiler room..... It wasn't supposed to go that way, but when swinging through, it happens.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Wed Jul 13, 2011 4:49 pm

True story, really: I shot a smallish whitetail in Indiana with a .54 Renegade, and RB @ about 1800fps MV..Range about 30 yards. It was DRT, and when I went down to it, there was a neat hole in a small alder and it nailed the deer after passing thru it. The deer hadn't moved much after being hit, and was maybe 10 feet behind the alder. The alder was maybe a bit smaller than my wrist. I had aimed behind the shoulder, and got a neck shot that broke the neck...yes, I was lucky I didn't get a gut shot.

I would say that the RB had flattened out to the point I would not have gotten penetration thru the shoulder at all.
I clearly recall shooting M16 FMJ and they would (every once in awhile) turn into a puff of gray smoke if they hit close in high grass/weeds at the range. Our Drill Sgt wrecked a metal ammo can with one shot, so I know they are very distructive when they hit. If it were legal, I would hunt with one using 55gr soft points.

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Wed Jul 13, 2011 5:19 pm

I consider the 30-30 and 308 heavy bullet guns and a good brush guns, the heavier the bullet the better. The ones that get deflected are the super fast light bullets, that would be my opinion.

cas · Post by **cas** » Wed Jul 13, 2011 5:37 pm

From what I testing I can recall, the smaller, heavy for caliber (meaning long) ones works the best for "brush bucking" (which doesn't really happen. Heavy 6.5's working the best IIRC.

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Wed Jul 13, 2011 5:49 pm

Every article that I recall reading on the subject states that there is no such creature as the legendary "Brush Buster", often repeating the same previously discussed examples regarding penetration of saplings, and random deflections caused by twigs and blades of grass.

Reflecting on the notion that a potentially deflecting barrier or object closer to the muzzle has a greater impact on accuracy, one only has to consider the similar example of how a damaged crown can send bullets to unpredictable points of impact. In a longer range application it seems like once the bullet has stablized there's a good chance it will keep going in the same general direction dependent on a few physical concerns, i.e., bullet construction, and barrier density.

Personally, I have shot a jackrabbit sitting on the other side of a 4x4 post at about 25 yards with a 5.56mm and a sow hog on the far side of a group of saplings at about 40 yards with a .356Win. Like Joe, I didn't see the particular sapling as prominent in the scope, but I admit to trying to thread the needle through the small stand of several. The rabbit was resting up agin the post, so maybe there wasn't much room for the bullet to deflect, but I will note that the rabbit wasn't killed by wood splinters, he had a bullet hole straight through him. The hog was 10yards away from the tree but the bullet, perhaps luckily, hit exactly where it was aimed in spite of the lovely and perfect hole it had already bored through the 3" tree.

In spite of these experiences, I still don't believe in the brush buster myth, and I don't deliberately take shots on live game when there is any object that I expect to be obstructive in the path of a bullet's trajectory.

Marlin32 · Post by **Marlin32** » Wed Jul 13, 2011 6:07 pm

I think all bullets are going to deflect in unpredictable pattern after striking woody object.
Some more than others maybe, but all.

When I think "brush gun" I am thinking a gun for close range shots, quick handling, quick follow up shots etc.(ie lever actions) Generally, using a big bullet, both heavy for caliber and actual large slow moving bullets. They don't "explode" when they strike animals at those distances, bullet performs like it was intended at those ranges. (32 special, 30/30, 35, 32-40, 38-55, handgun cals, 357, 44-40, 44, 45 etc, 375 win, 40-65, 45-70)

I do not consider 270's, 7mm, and any "magnum" to be brush guns according to my vague definition of above. I don't consider bolt actions to be brush guns.

rimrock · Post by **rimrock** » Wed Jul 13, 2011 6:09 pm

If SWMBO reads this thread, you're excuse for just one more gun is toast!!

My .308 pushing a170 grain cast flat point about 2200fps ricochets much worse than my .444 pushing a 265 grain cast flat point about 2000fps when both bullets are aimed in offhand position at 100 yd targets setting on the ground. So much so that I have made a better back stop to keep them things on my place. There are several bullet cuts on trees around my back stop indicating that both types of bullets veer off course by 2-3 inches or more when they encounter branches of thumb size or better. I suspect the longer bearing surface on the .308 bullets is part of the difference.

rimrock

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Wed Jul 13, 2011 6:12 pm

I remember the same G&A article with the box of dowel rods inside. I couldn't remember what the small round was that gave the great performance, but I do remember the .45-70 failing miserably.

Blane, can you not use a .223 where you live?

GoatGuy · Post by **GoatGuy** » Wed Jul 13, 2011 6:13 pm

FW - It's amazing how expert reasoning can often times be bested by practical experience. That said, I always will pass up a shot through brush. Most generally because I don't want to miss and have to tell someone about it.

I know my limitations and don't often take shots with less than 85% chance of a good hit.

Lastmohecken · Post by **Lastmohecken** » Wed Jul 13, 2011 8:08 pm

I think maybe I have slipped a 130gr .270 bullet through brush, maybe more often then anything else, except for my .308 Winchester using 180gr bullets, but I have also seen the .308 fail on a tiny sapling, only a couple of feet in front of the deer, causing me to have to track it down, and take a running shot to finish it off. And I had a 54 cal Maxi ball fail to kill a deer, under the same siduation, just one tiny sapling and it was very close to the deer.

I don't have much faith in any caliber, short of a 50BMG for brush shooting. You need to find a hole and slip that bullet through clean, if at all possible.

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Wed Jul 13, 2011 8:13 pm

Lastmohecken wrote:I think maybe I have slipped a 130gr .270 bullet through brush, maybe more often then anything else, except for my .308 Winchester using 180gr bullets, but I have also seen the .308 fail on a tiny sapling, only a couple of feet in front of the deer, causing me to have to track it down, and take a running shot to finish it off. And I had a 54 cal Maxi ball fail to kill a deer, under the same siduation, just one tiny sapling and it was very close to the deer.

I don't have much faith in any caliber, short of a 50BMG for brush shooting. You need to find a hole and slip that bullet through clean, if at all possible.

I agree with that too, i think the name brush gun meant a handy short range gun that carried well in brush and that ya could pick a hole through the brush with more than being able to shoot brush off.

InTheWoods · Post by **InTheWoods** » Wed Jul 13, 2011 8:58 pm

Seems like most of the studies I have read over the years (including the G and A article referenced) seem to indicated the opposite of what 'common sense' dictates. Slow, fat bullets faired the worst, and longer smaller caliber bullets faired the best. Non are good though, indicating that shots through the brush should be avoided.

My favorite woods gun is a scoped Remington Model 7 in 7-08. It is short, fast handling, and the scope gives me the ability to pick clear holes through the vegetation to my target.

earlmck · Post by **earlmck** » Wed Jul 13, 2011 10:57 pm

We all probably read the same articles on deflection after hitting "stuff". What I took from the article I read many years ago, and filed away in memory, is that the faster the twist the less the deflection. That's why the 45-70 would have fared rather poorly. My one experience with some inadvertent brush would tend to confirm the "slow-twist = big deflection" theory: I once took a head-shot with 44 mag pistol at a buck looking over a bitterbrush plant at me. (This was in the days I was doing lots of pistol shooting, deer about 30 yards away, and head the only part visible). Deer ran at the shot rather than dropping like I expected, so I figured "clean miss". Nope, spot of blood on ground where he'd been standing. "Oh poop! wounded deer". Trailed him 20 yards and there he was, hit behind the shoulder for a heart shot. The only thing I could figure was the heavy slow-twist bullet clipped a teensy bitterbrush twig just before the deer and made about a 45 degree deflection. (Or I'm a really bad shot, which is what many of you are thinking

)

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Wed Jul 13, 2011 11:12 pm

Marlin32 wrote:I think all bullets are going to deflect in unpredictable pattern after striking woody object.
Some more than others maybe, but all.

When I think "brush gun" I am thinking a gun for close range shots, quick handling, quick follow up shots etc.(ie lever actions) Generally, using a big bullet, both heavy for caliber and actual large slow moving bullets. They don't "explode" when they strike animals at those distances, bullet performs like it was intended at those ranges. (32 special, 30/30, 35, 32-40, 38-55, handgun cals, 357, 44-40, 44, 45 etc, 375 win, 40-65, 45-70)

I do not consider 270's, 7mm, and any "magnum" to be brush guns according to my vague definition of above. I don't consider bolt actions to be brush guns.

Slow heavy bullets have always been promoted as the best for hunting in thick cover, but military testing at Aberdeen Proving Grounds suggest this theory is only half right. While a heavy blunt bullet does show an advantage, high velocity rather than low velocity seems to be a key factor in getting through the brush. Also, the bullet should be properly matched to the barrel's rate of twist for maximum stability. A bullet with marginal stability is easily tumbled.

Finally, the bullet should be of heavy construction. Many times, a fragile bullet will simply break apart when it meets with even light resistance.

Post by **Chuck 100 yd** » Wed Jul 13, 2011 11:19 pm

One time many years ago a writer from the American Rifleman did some very extensive testing to find the best brush gun caliber.
He made a box with holes drilled on both sides and laced it with a screen of hardwood dowels to make is so no bullet could pass through without contacting one of the dowels.
All the so called brush calibers were tested and some that are not considered good for brush and the results blow all the favorites out of the water. The .243 / 6mm held the best/ tightest groups measured at a set distance behind the deflection point and some of the big bores fared very poorly in that test.
The best thing is not to shoot through brush and if you have to it`s anybody s guess where the bullet will go.

guido4198 · Post by **guido4198** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 4:33 am

"My personal belief is that unless there is some type of emergency the animal deserves the respect of me taking a shot that would produce the quickest kill possible. Shooting through a bunch of sticks, leaves or what have you does not qualify. I can say that having to let a nice eight point go because of brush is tough to swallow but it feels good in the soul."

Like he said.
Very few of us have to feed our family on what we bring home from our hunting trips.
I'm not "shooting through" ANYTHING. No clear shot, no problem. Wait til next time.
This is sport hunting...NOT survival.

M. M. Wright · Post by **M. M. Wright** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 5:15 am

There is no such thing as a "brush busting" caliber. I shot a small buck with my Remington roller 45-70 once. Factory 405 grain JSP. Deer went down but got right up and ran away. Found the jacket on the ground and a small, about 3" dia., tree shot through and it just fell right over. Three years later I killed a nice buck with a scar on his brisket about 100 yards from where I had shot the little forked horn. When boning out the meat, there was the bullet core in a back leg. Little tree was about 5' from the deer. Since then my favorite brush guns are the BLR in .308 or Browning B-78 30-06 with low power scopes so I can find and shoot through holes.

1894 · Post by **1894** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 9:53 am

guido4198 wrote:"My personal belief is that unless there is some type of emergency the animal deserves the respect of me taking a shot that would produce the quickest kill possible. Shooting through a bunch of sticks, leaves or what have you does not qualify. I can say that having to let a nice eight point go because of brush is tough to swallow but it feels good in the soul."

Like he said.
Very few of us have to feed our family on what we bring home from our hunting trips.
I'm not "shooting through" ANYTHING. No clear shot, no problem. Wait til next time.
This is sport hunting...NOT survival.

Yep , my feelings as well . A good brush gun is a point and click short fast handling rifle or shotgun. Also having let a nice 8 point decide to just slowly bounce away instead of just taking that one step forward , my mind didn't wrestle with the what if's of that 240 gn bullet cleanly going thru the little brush he was standing behind for very long . Ate a nice meal of tag soup that year and slept well.

Rimfire McNutjob · Post by **Rimfire McNutjob** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 10:29 am

earlmck wrote:We all probably read the same articles on deflection after hitting "stuff". What I took from the article I read many years ago, and filed away in memory, is that the faster the twist the less the deflection. That's why the 45-70 would have fared rather poorly...

I think this has merit and I'm glad someone mentioned it. I would think that a 45-70 out of a 1:20 twist gun would be far harder to deflect than the same from a 1:28 twist gun, etc. As I'm an EE and not and ME, I will not be attempting the calculation for the moment of inertia perpendicular to the axis of travel for various bullet velocities and twist rates.

I might look around and see if there's a WEB calculator for such for basically cylindrical objects. Just curious mind you. I'm sure everyone here has at one time or another when they were younger spun a bike wheel while it was off the ground and tried to turn the handle bars. That's what we're talking about of course.

getitdone1 · Post by **getitdone1** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:27 pm

I have some 'TREE GUNS'. After about 6 shots with .348 or 45-70 two 6" yellow birches went down. Couldn't detect any deflection of bullet.
To tell the truth it was bullets plus wind.

Here's the best one. Took my Browning A-Bolt, 375 H&H and shot through a tree about 28" front to back. Bullet dug out the soil beyond tree. Bullet= 300 gr Hornady FMJ. The same bullet that went through 24 plastic gallon milk jugs filled with water.

Did I get some smiles with that first sentence?

Don

Old Time Hunter · Post by **Old Time Hunter** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 6:16 pm

Interesting, they just recently had a show on TV in which they were trying to hit the gas tank of a mid '80's Ford Mustang by piercing the body with various guns. The 5.56 deflected immediately on hitting the body tin, not even staying on parallel path after passing through the tin. A .357 Mag out of 4.5" barrel revolver made it through the body ok, but not the unibody sub frame. The .30-30 made it all the way to the gas tank, but had spent it's wad and did not pierce the last of the 18 ga metal. A .308, 165 gr made it all the way and pierced it. They then used a tracer bullet and blew it up.

bgmkithaca · Post by **bgmkithaca** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 8:31 pm

Rimfire McNutjob wrote:
earlmck wrote:We all probably read the same articles on deflection after hitting "stuff". What I took from the article I read many years ago, and filed away in memory, is that the faster the twist the less the deflection. That's why the 45-70 would have fared rather poorly...
I think this has merit and I'm glad someone mentioned it. I would think that a 45-70 out of a 1:20 twist gun would be far harder to deflect than the same from a 1:28 twist gun, etc. As I'm an EE and not and ME, I will not be attempting the calculation for the moment of inertia perpendicular to the axis of travel for various bullet velocities and twist rates. I might look around and see if there's a WEB calculator for such for basically cylindrical objects. Just curious mind you. I'm sure everyone here has at one time or another when they were younger spun a bike wheel while it was off the ground and tried to turn the handle bars. That's what we're talking about of course.

You may be on to something with the rate of twist.Quite a few years ago I took a shot at a white tail and shot through a thick limb pretty squarely about 60-70 feet short of the deer and missed by around 30 to 32 inches.If I remember right the
bullet was a 480 Minnie ball and a rate of twist of 1 in 56".A whole lot of deflection for the distance from the limb to the deer.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:11 pm

Interesting on the 'spin' factor - at first blush, it would seem like spin would render the bullet more fragmentation-prone, and faster spin would usually be associated with a longer bullet, which would have more cross-sectional density (maybe go through stuff better), but also a longer bullet once yawing, would go wacko pretty fast I would think.

On the other hand, the 'gyroscopic' effect does make alot of sense, and could perhaps be over-riding those other factors. I've never really understood WHY gyroscopic force works (or if I did, I've forgotten it decades ago), but it sure is a strong force, even at the 'bicycle-tire' RPM level.

And yes, I agree with the pragmatists and humanitarian hunters who say they'd never depend on any gun to intentionally shoot through brush when simply game hunting. Perhaps there isn't a brush cartridge, but maybe there is a brush gun - that is short and handy in tight spaces, and has quick sights that don't block the view of intervening brush.

t.r. · Post by **t.r.** » Fri Jul 15, 2011 6:05 am

My "brush gun" is a RUGER 96 in 44 MAG. My 2.5X scope is low mounted. Nice and short, light, good accuracy for shots out to 85 yards or so.

But my Hornady 240 grain XTP bullets are not brush-busters at all. The frangible nose mushrooms rapidly upon impact and this means that twigs will defer the bullet away from its intended destination. In contrast, my .308 loaded with 180 grain round nosed bullet seems to "get there" better under heavy brush conditions. But even this bullet can be thrown off course by twigs.

In summary, a 100% valid excuse for missing the animal is "bullet deflection by brush".

TR

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Fri Jul 15, 2011 7:22 am

Just went out back and setup a target on a tall cardboard box (just used a 6" black bull on sheet of printer paper) and placed the box behind a very thick bush(various stems up to size diameter of little finger.(just barely could make out a bull)
The test gun was a 12ga 1972 20" Ithaca Deerslayer Deluxe(smoothbore buck barrel) (inside muzzle diameter of .706)roughly the diameter of Modified/Imp Modified

Slugs were the Brenneke Green Lightnings.(mind you the barrel is tapered smooth (no twist)

Shot 5 rds and all 5 stayed inside the bull

I am speechless(I would say,that's a true brush gun)

Tests to follow with a 7MM Rem Mag (154gr @ 3100fps)

Noah Zark · Post by **Noah Zark** » Fri Jul 15, 2011 7:29 am

adirondakjack wrote:A big bus, moving fairly slow, will be less perturbed by nose damage than a "hotrod" moving fast.

Judging from the amount of roadkill on PA highways, IMO the type of vehicle and its speed doesn't matter.

Noah

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Fri Jul 15, 2011 8:31 am

madman4570 wrote:Just went out back and setup a target on a tall cardboard box (just used a 6" black bull on sheet of printer paper) and placed the box behind a very thick bush(various stems up to size diameter of little finger.(just barely could make out a bull)
The test gun was a 12ga 1972 20" Ithaca Deerslayer Deluxe(smoothbore buck barrel) (inside muzzle diameter of .706)roughly the diameter of Modified/Imp Modified

Slugs were the Brenneke Green Lightnings.(mind you the barrel is tapered smooth (no twist)

Shot 5 rds and all 5 stayed inside the bull I am speechless(I would say,that's a true brush gun)

Tests to follow with a 7MM Rem Mag (154gr @ 3100fps)

OK, here is the deal-------
Gun 1993 24" Browning BLR 7MM Rem Mag shooting 154gr Hornady loads

Fired 5 shots at box-----------

Only 2 shots were on paper(with only one in the bull)
1 other shot hit very upper right end corner of box(and its a big box(what a 36"x60" Anderson window came in)
No sign of the other two ???
Just to verify I rechecked not being behind a bush firing 3 more into new bull and all 3 right in center bull.

Both guns used were without scopes. (open sights)

Moral of the story, since walking in the woods daily where there is big bears all over and being in woods/brush (I will be carrying the Ithaca) most the time.

.Dirty-.Thirty · Post by **.Dirty-.Thirty** » Fri Jul 15, 2011 10:31 am

I have an article that speaks of that, think it is in an annual from 1985-1988 I'll look it up today, seems I recall some Winchester and Marlin lever guns being in this test.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Fri Jul 15, 2011 1:24 pm

Let me clarify that I know the 7MM Mag is plenty of gun and the reason carrying the Ithaca over the BLR for a protective weapon is that with the leaves on the trees unless you are looking down a log trail or under the hemlocks especially as wet as this year has been it looks like a rain forest.And if something big charged, I don't want to worry about a much less chance of hitting that threat with brush being involved cause i surely cant tell a bear to use the log road.
Now, if it's late fall (Deer/Bear season)with most of the leaves being off the trees where I can pick my shots(7MM would do perfectly)
Just after these two tests done,feel better with the Deerslayer!

earlmck · Post by **earlmck** » Fri Jul 15, 2011 10:37 pm

madman4570 wrote: Just after these two tests done,feel better with the Deerslayer!

Thanks much for those tests, Madman. I don't normally walk around brushy forests having bears in them, but if the time comes I am filing away in my brainpan the results of your tests. So if we really need something to punch through some brush and still be close to what we are aiming at, the old rifled slug from the shotgun is the way to go. And I would have assumed a rifled slug would be reacting much like a 45/70 bullet. Shows to go ya what "assuming" can do.

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:20 pm

earlmck wrote:Shows to go ya what "assuming" can do.

Kinda what this thread is about, ain't it?

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:38 pm

Exactly eralmck,
I have to be truthful,most years i carried the Deerslayer I used the Winchester Rifled HP slugs.(that is what the Deerslayer really took a shine to)but then few years back some of the guys on here(86er)and such told me about many times using normal lead slugs in the event you shoot a bear in the head sometimes the slug doesn't penetrate the skull(scalps em)and that could be a dangerous situation to be in ?
So after doing a lot of reading and such I noticed many Alaskan game wardens used the Brenneke because that slug penetrated extremely well.(I was just lucky my gun really also was well suited to that ammo.So what I load my gun with is the first two (Brenneke Green Lightnings,followed by one round of Winchester Supreme 12 pellet 00Buck, followed by another Brenneke Green Lightning and last another 12 pellet 00 Buck.
The people around here feed the bears and they are not very timid. Like tonight walking one of our trails we had a bear slowly follow us situated on a log trail above us on the next higher bench of the mountain about 225 ft above us?

My dogs were going ballistic but the bear was just slowly following where we went ?
it tends to make oneself a little extra watchful and wanting a viable weapon God forbid I ever had to shoot one under that circumstance.(which to protect wife/daughter/dogs and yes myself I won't hesitate once I decide its past the point of no return.

I am sure the 45-70 would do well also(At the present time all I have is the 405gr Conley loads @ 2150fps and that didn't seem like the right bullets to test cause I know most on here don't use them?(use them for my Ruger #1)

1894 · Post by **1894** » Sat Jul 16, 2011 8:31 am

So if I'm getting this , a big 12 ga. 1 oz slug is gonna vere off course much less from deflection by brush and leaves than a smaller , often faster , bullit will . When one lives in an area where dumb folks actually think it's fun and cute to feed bears

The bears lose respect and fear of humans and will follow folks in hopes of a meal.
When the woods looks like this :

Sometimes the best choice is a big heavy slug , to minimise deflection , have a quick follow up shot , and put big holes in anything that really is threatining you ?

The bears where I go generally want absolutly nothing to do with people . Folks learned that feeding them ( including having dumps by camp ) just lead to break ins and more trouble . A currious one occasionally will try to figger out what that strange critter is walking around his back yard is , but mostly very shy of any humans.

earlmck · Post by **earlmck** » Sat Jul 16, 2011 10:00 am

madman4570 wrote:
I am sure the 45-70 would do well also

No madman, I think the results of real tests (such as you did with the slug gun and the 7mm) have shown that big slow bullets from slow-twist rifles do not do even remotly well when going through brush. If you insist on a rifle the best ones tend to be fast-twist types such as a 6.5x55 with an 8" twist (or maybe one of those 223's with a 7" twist shooting 80 grain 22caliber bullets?)

You may be the only one to have included a rifled slug from a smoothbore shotgun barrel in the test. Looks to me like the Brenneke slug you used would trump anything from a rifled barrel by a wide margin.

Been an interesting thread: thanks for bringing it up, AJDM. And thanks again for your contribution, madman.

Canuck Bob · Post by **Canuck Bob** » Sat Jul 16, 2011 10:24 am

Sorry guys but this topic is something that always concerns me, you ain't shooting at and hitting hair your not hunting your an unsafe shooter. I do not consider this as my opinion but central to gun safety. Anyone firing a rifle should have eyes on the target and the target is not a moose behind a willow bush but a small 6 or 7 inch patch of fur in a very specific place on an animal depending on presented angles.

We should always shoot a bullet at our target with a clear lane to that target. I'm speaking sporting purposes not a charging lion or drug addict. Combat should always be anything that works and the bigger the better, I'm a 105 howitzer guy myself and worry about our kids in combat with gopher rifles.

I hunted Canadian bush my whole life and took more than one moose in waist deep muskeg swamp as thick and bug infested as anything in the world. As a hunter I am required to assure a clear shot to target. If I can't I didn't satisfy the requirements of hunting and my game lives for round two. I find trophy hunting to be the real culprit. Animals want to see who is chasing them. Rarely has an animal not offered a head shot in brush and at the range it is the kill shot of all kill shots unless I value antlers higher than clean kill hunting.

Post by **Old Savage** » Sat Jul 16, 2011 10:28 am

There is nothing you can count on shooting through brush.

And now 223s - night fire - tracers - Ft Polk, La., 75 rifles on the line with 20 tracers each all fired on command on auto. Bullets off the brush behind the range in every direction - what a light show - then another 75 rifles and repeat with the same results.

Canuck Bob · Post by **Canuck Bob** » Sat Jul 16, 2011 11:03 am

Old Savage wrote:There is nothing you can count on shooting through brush.

And now 223s - night fire - tracers - Ft Polk, La., 75 rifles on the line with 20 tracers each all fired on command on auto. Bullets off the brush behind the range in every direction - what a light show - then another 75 rifles and repeat with the same results.

Night firing a howitzer in short range tank fire drill through the wrecking yard will surprise people. Anti-tank gunners must assure direct sight or easily risk a miss on a tank and you don't want to miss. Your in a running armor battle with no ability to run except the two good legs God gave ya!!

Ji in Hawaii · Post by **Ji in Hawaii** » Sat Jul 16, 2011 10:50 pm

To me a brush gun is a handy short barreled longarm that you can take into heavy cover with less hardware to hang up on vegetation. Also a an adequate chambering to drop game quick. A brush gun to me is NOT a gun designed to shoot through brush, you don't shoot at game you cannot see, that just isn't safe nor right. Several places here in the islands it is thick jungle with visibility limited to 10 yards, sometimes less. In pursuit of wild pigs we would sometimes have to get on our hands and knees and crawl through "pig tunnels" and sometimes you'll meet Mr. Hog coming from the opposite direction. You want a gun that can get into action quick. A handgun would be a better choice in some of these circumstances BUT up until very recently handguns were illegal to hunt with. To me a short 16" barreled Trapper in 44 mag or 45 Colt would be ideal for allot of my hunting. My 20" barrel 1894 Marlin does good but 4 inches less would be nice. My Trapper 94AE in 357 mag loaded with 180 grain JSPs would work but I feel more comfortable in close quarter with a 44 mag.