Winchester 1892 Firing Pin Diameter

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Lowey
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Winchester 1892 Firing Pin Diameter

#1 Post by Lowey » Mon Jan 10, 2011 6:57 am

I am rebuilding a Winchester 1892 in 25-20, the bolt face is badly worn and the firing pin hole larger than it should be and deformed ! These rifles have a large diameter firing pin ( this one measures0.108" ) I presume for the black powder days ? I use small rifle primers now with 2205 powder, I have to do work on the bolt face and headspace so is it worth bushing and reducing the firing pin diameter at the same time ? any thoughts or recommendations much appreciated.

also any "how to info" if you have bushed your firing pin hole how you went about it would be great

Thanks
Lowey

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Re: Winchester 1892 Firing Pin Diameter

#2 Post by williamranks » Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:31 am

Mine also has a .108" black powder firing pin (build date 1897). It shoots factory ammo fine.
The smokeless pin is .070". If you're not going to lighten or shim the mainspring I'm not sure you need to change it.
I'm not sure you would need to bush the hole if you do make the change unless you're going to load high pressure rounds.
What about just reducing the tip?
I am going to shim the trigger spring when I get a longer 6-48 screw for it.
Bill
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Re: Winchester 1892 Firing Pin Diameter

#3 Post by earlmck » Mon Jan 10, 2011 12:06 pm

I've got one of those old 92's, also. As long as I stay away from small pistol primers I seem to be OK, but when I try small pistol primers (which is my normal practice for the little cases) I get "pierced" primers. The so-called "piercing" is really not from the firing pin punching thru the primer, but rather is from the thinner metal of the primer blowing back thru the large firing pin hole. If your loads don't do that, I wouldn't worry about it. Reducing the diameter of the firing pin tip will not help anything, in my opinion, because I believe it is the diameter of the hole that allows "piercing" problems.
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Re: Winchester 1892 Firing Pin Diameter

#4 Post by Lowey » Mon Jan 10, 2011 3:56 pm

Thanks for the replys, hopefully this pic below will show what i have to work with !
Image
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Re: Winchester 1892 Firing Pin Diameter

#5 Post by Griff » Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:49 pm

1st of all; Image and Welcome to the Forum.

I'd say that looks like a problem. I ain't a gunsmith or a machinist, so how to correct it ain't in my repertoire. If'n it were mine I'd go to Mike @ Hunters Restorations or Steve @ Steve's Gunz. Other levergun gunsmiths can be found here: Lever Action Gunsmiths.
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Re: Winchester 1892 Firing Pin Diameter

#6 Post by pwl44m » Mon Jan 10, 2011 6:55 pm

Youv'e been Lurking haven't You. Welcome. Boy the 92s R coming out of the woodwork. I just looked at both of mine and one looks just slightly worn. Good luck with it.
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Re: Winchester 1892 Firing Pin Diameter

#7 Post by williamranks » Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:41 pm

Looks like either a bent firing pin wore the hole out or the bolt is shot.
The pin centers because of the fit of the firing pin body inside the bolt not the point.
You may end up sleeving inside the bolt and bushing where the pin exits the bolt face.
I have both types of firing pin. When I get them out tomorrow I'll measure overall length and see if the black powder pin is also longer.
When I checked some 25-20 empties the primer indent looks deep to me.
Bill
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Re: Winchester 1892 Firing Pin Diameter

#8 Post by pdentrem » Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:52 pm

To salvage that bolt you will have to bore it out to put in a bushing and fit the pin to the bushing. Easier to do with a metal lathe.
As mentioned in an earlier post the primers will flow back into the firing pin hole if the hole is too sloppy around the pin.
I did this repair on either my 44-40 or the 25-20, I can not remember which. I would have to look at the bolts to figure which one. In the NRA Gunsmithing Guide there is an article that shows how to do that repair. I think it is that book. It is on loan to a friend at the moment thus I can not confirm that. Maybe others can?

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Re: Winchester 1892 Firing Pin Diameter

#9 Post by kimwcook » Mon Jan 10, 2011 8:11 pm

I agree that bolt needs some attention.
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Re: Winchester 1892 Firing Pin Diameter

#10 Post by pdentrem » Mon Jan 10, 2011 8:16 pm

Ok I went down to the vault and it's the 25-20 that I bushed the bolt. Here is a picture just taken of the bolt face. You can just make out the bushing seam that is about half the diameter of the firing pin away.
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Re: Winchester 1892 Firing Pin Diameter

#11 Post by Lowey » Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:33 pm

Thanks for the welcome, pdentrem that is what I hoping to achieve, did you bore out the hole and tap it or did you make the bush a tight fit with a stepped shoulder and weld it in ? You have done a nice job of it.
In the NRA Gunsmithing Guide there is an article that shows how to do that repair.
is there some where on the net I could look up this info ? I like to have a go at repairing these things myself
I have both types of firing pin. When I get them out tomorrow I'll measure overall length and see if the black powder pin is also longer.
thanks I will be interested to know how far it sticks out as I will have to reform the pin, I will check the firing pin body for correct fit also

Cheers
Lowey

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Re: Winchester 1892 Firing Pin Diameter

#12 Post by pdentrem » Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:00 pm

Thanks for the vote of confidence on the repair. I'm sure others have done even better, it was one of my first!
I bored out the hole and tapped it. I did not have welding equipment at the time. If you were to weld you would want to use TIG not MIG.
I just used a quality machine screw for the bushing. You screw in the bushing and solder it in. Brownells has a low temp silver solder that will work for this. It is called Hi-Force 44. Works just fine for this application. You can still hot blue after using it. After that I drilled the bushing to fit the new pin that I had made up. I used the firingpin to select the size drill. I used the lathe to match the bushing face to the bolt face. I also had to work the area where the ejector sits with a file and/or a dremel tool to clear it.

I tend to prefer books, I have just about 2 shelves full of assorted books on firearms. Repair and historical/collector stuff.
The NRA Gunsmithing Guide is available just about anywhere. Used or new there are copies all over the net. Buy it, there are many articles that will show you ideas on what to do. Also pickup from Brownells the Gunkink series. 4 volumes of gunsmith tips and processes.

I hope that this helps a bit.

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Re: Winchester 1892 Firing Pin Diameter

#13 Post by williamranks » Tue Jan 11, 2011 12:34 pm

OK. I'm not sure what I found but, here it is.
The rifle is a Winchester 1897 sporting rifle in 25-20 built in 1897.
I have both the original black powder firing pin and a smokeless firing pin I bought last week. Both are the same overall length.
The hole in the bolt face measures within .002 of the firing pin diameter for the black powder pin.
Both pins give a protrusion of .072 from the bolt face when fully extended.
On my newer 92s (rebounding firing pin) the protrusion is .058 to .060 when fully extended.
I couldn't find anything on the net about Winchester firing pin protrusion but, most modern rifles seem to be from .045 to a max of .060.
The tip of the pin has a flare where it meets the body and I found that if the pin is partially extended the tip will wiggle slightly at the bolt face.
Once the pin is almost completely extended the flare enters the rear of the hole in the bolt face the tip won't wiggle at all.
I have some fired rounds here and the indentations on the primers are in a different place on each of them. Some are centered and some are a little bit off center.
Did the cartridges this rifle was designed to use back then have a more recessed primer or did the old primers require deeper hits to fire?
Black powder pins are still available so I think I'm going to cut this one back to about .055 protrusion and see if the primer hits center up.

Bill
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Re: Winchester 1892 Firing Pin Diameter

#14 Post by Lowey » Tue Jan 11, 2011 7:15 pm

Thanks Bill, .055" sounds like a good place to start , Think i will reduce the diameter to .070 and the protrution to .055. Let me know how yours works out

Cheers
Lowey

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Re: Winchester 1892 Firing Pin Diameter

#15 Post by OJ » Wed Jan 12, 2011 12:44 am

Dunno how or whether this is helpful but, Arthur Pirkle lists te firing pin for any 92 as 3 + 19/32" long by 9/32" in diameter. The tip was 19/64" long by 3/32" in diameter. All were blued and only one type was manufactured.

That from the North Cape Publications Vol 2 on the 1886 and 1892 - page 148.
Last edited by OJ on Wed Jan 12, 2011 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Winchester 1892 Firing Pin Diameter

#16 Post by williamranks » Wed Jan 12, 2011 12:46 pm

Lowey,
Be real careful! There is a lot of PSI in that cartridge looking for a week spot to come out.
You're still going to have to deal with bushing the bolt face.

I'll try to do it today. If you shorten it make very sure to round the new tip smooth and radiused. A sharp burr may pierce the primer.
I'm not going to reduce diameter of the pin tip except at the very end because the diameter back from the tip so closely matches the hole in the bolt face.
This stuff is tricky. The firing pin protrusion not only has to indent the primer it also has to bridge any headspace gap to do it. If there was no headspace gap (never happen) a protrusion of .030 would be plenty.
I pulled the .055 number out of my a** as a starting point. I may use up a couple pins before I get it right.
The primer has to be hit both hard and fast. A slow strike won't set it off. That means that with a fired round still in the chamber and the firing pin in the primer indent the rear of the pin should not be flush with the rear of the bolt. The primer has to be set off while the hammer is still accelerating and before it's stopped by the rear bolt face.
A rebounding firing pin has it's maximum protrusion with the big end recessed into the rear of the bolt. The hammer has already stopped on the rear bolt face while the pin keeps traveling and strikes the primer.
With our rifles the pin stops flush with the rear of the bolt and where the hammer is is where the pin is.
If it was possible to retrofit a rebounding pin set up from a Rossi or a newer Winchester this would become a non problem. I just don't have the equipment to do it.

I wish Nate would chime in, he knows a lot more about this than I ever will.

Bill
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Re: Winchester 1892 Firing Pin Diameter

#17 Post by williamranks » Wed Jan 12, 2011 7:36 pm

Finished.
I used the black powder pin. It is soft! I only had to take a few strokes of a flat file to shorten it .020.
I put it in the drill and it spun without any wobble so I used the drill to spin it, at low speed, first against a flat file and then against a fine diamond stone to get a smooth radius on the cut end.
I didn't try to reduce the end diameter to .070 because of how easy it cut, I didn't want to loose any strength.
After everything was done it protrudes .044. It fires factory ammo fine with no misfires.
The primers look a little better with less cratering. They'll always look a little odd because, they weren't intended to be hit with something that wide.
With a spent cartridge still in the chamber the big end of the pin protrudes a couple more thousandths at the rear of the bolt compared to the protrusion with no round in the chamber so I know I'm getting full travel.
Someday I might swap to the smokeless pin but, I'll have the bolt face bushed to fit the smaller diameter first.

And thank you, I don't know if I ever answered your original question but, I don't work again until late March and I had great sport planning and doing this. My normal work is sitting in the spare room planning maintenance work orders for a nuclear plant 3000 miles from here, when they have the funds to hire me.

Bill
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Re: Winchester 1892 Firing Pin Diameter

#18 Post by pdentrem » Wed Jan 12, 2011 7:53 pm

Here is a scan of the bushing procedure from NRA Gunsmithing Guide. Page 296. This is a repair and conversion for .357 and .44 magnum cartridges.
Calls for 5/64" hole in the bushing, thats about .078" and sizing the tip of the pin to fit. Protusion of .050 to .059", looking .055" as optimum.
This should help answer the questions.
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Re: Winchester 1892 Firing Pin Diameter

#19 Post by williamranks » Wed Jan 12, 2011 8:13 pm

Nice one pdentrem those are saved to a file now, thank you.

Bill
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Re: Winchester 1892 Firing Pin Diameter

#20 Post by pdentrem » Wed Jan 12, 2011 8:50 pm

williamranks wrote:Nice one pdentrem those are saved to a file now, thank you.

Bill

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Re: Winchester 1892 Firing Pin Diameter

#21 Post by Lowey » Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:47 am

Hi All, just an update on the progress of my winchester, I have bushed the hole and turned the pin down to 0.050" its a nice fit now and starting to look a lot better still plenty of work to go but it feels like I am getting somewhere ?
Image
Image

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Lowey

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Re: Winchester 1892 Firing Pin Diameter

#22 Post by J Miller » Thu Feb 10, 2011 8:40 am

Lowey,

That looks a whole lot better than it used to. I'll bet works better too.
Good job.

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Re: Winchester 1892 Firing Pin Diameter

#23 Post by williamranks » Thu Feb 10, 2011 8:05 pm

Beautiful work!! I'm glad mine didn't need a bushing, no way I could have done what you did.
I'm doing new wood now. If you decide to do that let me know and I'll tell you all the mistakes I made.
JB Weld makes an epoxy putty now for wood.

Bill
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Re: Winchester 1892 Firing Pin Diameter

#24 Post by Lowey » Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:08 pm

Thanks Bill , yes i will be redoing the wood also , a complete rebuild :) I have fitted a barrel liner and the next job will be cleaning and reassemble the action
Image
Image

and completed barrel liner recrowned and cerakoted
Image
Cheers
Lowey

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Re: Winchester 1892 Firing Pin Diameter

#25 Post by Griff » Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:23 pm

Looking great! :mrgreen:
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Re: Winchester 1892 Firing Pin Diameter

#26 Post by Lowey » Sun Jul 17, 2011 10:56 pm

Thought I would drag this post up from the dead !, I had a lot of info from members with the work so far. Its a bit of a project that I spend a little time on now and then. I have put the rifle back together and tested the new firing pin set up, I am extremly happy with the out come :D on the pic below the shells on the left were shot before the rebuild and the ones on the right after the new barrel liner and bolt face repairs
Image

Now time to get to the wood work, Turning the old girl Blonde
Image

Working the forend
Image
Image
Image

Nearly to size
Image
Image

Any tips for the work on the butt stock please jump in,

To some doing this to an old Winchester is the devils work :twisted: ! But the rifle was in poor condition and a safety hazard if shot ! I didnt want a wall hanger and wanted some work experiance :) so I had no problems doing whats been done so far ? just maybe if my kids like it, it will still be with my family in another 100 years :)

Cheers
Lowey

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Re: Winchester 1892 Firing Pin Diameter

#27 Post by williamranks » Mon Jul 18, 2011 9:38 am

I wish I was good enough to do a stock from a blank. I bought a semi inleted.
One trick I learned on sanding it to match was to cover the metal with stainless steel tape for duct work.
You can sand right down on the tape without scarring the metal.
And make sure not to spread the tangs, that lowers the hammer and the bolt won't take it all the way to the notch.
I used a Bosch Multi X with the sanding pad for most of the work.
What finish did you use on the metal?

Bill
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Re: Winchester 1892 Firing Pin Diameter

#28 Post by pdentrem » Mon Jul 18, 2011 3:53 pm

Thanks for the update.
The primer pictures sure show the difference between the new bushed, smaller pin vs the oversized everything. Much better now!

Nice looking wood. You can also use tin cans for the protector shims to allow you the sand down to the metal.

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Re: Winchester 1892 Firing Pin Diameter

#29 Post by Lowey » Thu Jul 21, 2011 9:31 pm

Thanks for the tips, I like the tin can idea. I wish I had of done the wood work first but just couldn't wait to get it up and running :D

williamranks, I will keep an eye on the tangs ,thanks

Cheers
Jason

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