Strange marking on Winchester 92 Carbine?

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Strange marking on Winchester 92 Carbine?

Post by Driftwood Johnson »

Howdy

Sometimes you're in the right place at the right time. A few weeks ago a little Winchester Model 1892 saddle ring carbine caught my eye in a local shop. I might add that I have never been real enthusiastic about carbines, most of my leverguns are full length rifles, including my old 1892. But this one caught my eye. It had clearly been refinished, but it was a pretty good job, no glaring over polishing or terrible dishing of screws. And the price was right too. I just wasn't sure how old it was. I jotted down the SN and went home to look it up. Turns out it was made in 1919.

I was there first thing the next morning. Didn't even haggle over the price, it was on consignment anyway and it would have been a hassle.

Here is a photo.

Image

When I got it home, I noticed an odd marking on the left side of the frame. It almost looks like an acceptance stamp from someplace, by I am not familiar with it. That's the point of this post, can anybody identify this marking?

Image

I also noticed another interesting mark when I opened lever on the underside of the tang. I am assuming this is where Winchester originally shipped the gun. Watertown Mass is not far from where I live, it is a suburb of Boston. The stamp looks professionally done, I am assuming it was done at the factory. I know back in 1919 you could regularly buy guns in hardware stores and many other places. I just have not been able to find any reference to a company called Northeast Inc that might have been selling guns in 1919.

Any ideas?

Image

Thanks

P.S. The bore is spotless. Almost looks like it just left the factory. And it shoots like a champ, both with Smokeless and Black Powder. I slugged the bore and it comes out to .428. I am real pleased. This little baby is gonna come along to some CAS matches and make my Henry jealous.
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Re: Strange marking on Winchester 92 Carbine?

Post by sureshot »

The mark on the side of the receiver looks like a British "broad arrow" mark. The rifle was probably a lend-lease to England during the war. The name on the lower tang is the importer that brought it back into the US.

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Re: Strange marking on Winchester 92 Carbine?

Post by damienph »

I believe that I've seen that mark before. Maybe a British or Australian acceptance or proof mark and the "Northeast, Inc." is the name of the importer?
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Re: Strange marking on Winchester 92 Carbine?

Post by damienph »

Oops, sureshot beat me to it.
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Re: Strange marking on Winchester 92 Carbine?

Post by sureshot »

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Re: Strange marking on Winchester 92 Carbine?

Post by Mike D. »

Nice looking imported '92. Those forend band swivel attachments don't come easy, either. :)
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Re: Strange marking on Winchester 92 Carbine?

Post by Lefty Dude »

Nice find DJ, you done good. And a 44-40 to boot.
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Re: Strange marking on Winchester 92 Carbine?

Post by Ben_Rumson »

That's not the Brit Broad Arrow mark.. Their mark looks like an upside down V ... It doesn't have those hash marks on a shank...Looks more like Japanese or Chinese charater of some kind.. It looks kind of familiar actually..
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Re: Strange marking on Winchester 92 Carbine?

Post by awp101 »

My guess is Brit or one of the Dominion stamps. Canadian?
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Re: Strange marking on Winchester 92 Carbine?

Post by kimwcook »

The mark on the left side of the receiver looks Japanese to me as well. But, what do I know.
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Re: Strange marking on Winchester 92 Carbine?

Post by Huntermb »

That's not a broad arrow nor a canadian marking
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Re: Strange marking on Winchester 92 Carbine?

Post by Canuck Bob »

This link will take you to the site for the Pacific Coast Rangers of Canada during WW2. They were issued 94s. Down the page a bit you will find a Canadian Broad Arrow proof mark and ownership mark. A broad arrow surrounded with a C.

http://members.shaw.ca/nambuworld2/pcmr.htm

This does look like a Broad Arrow stamp but I'm no expert. They were used by the Brits and many members of the Commonwealth to note ownership of military property and proofmarks. Much like GI was on Yankee gear.

Edit, I did a search and cannot find that specific mark, a grand mystery.
Second edit, can't find any BA marks that are similiar yet.
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Re: Strange marking on Winchester 92 Carbine?

Post by Driftwood Johnson »

Howdy Again

I'm pretty sure it is not a British Broad Arrow or the Canadian Version. I have a couple of Lee /Enfields with the British Broad Arrow, and a S&W that was sent to Canada with the Canadian Broad Arrow. This mark does not look like either, that's why I asked in the first place. Here is the Canadian Broad Arrow on my Smith. The British Broad Arrow looks the same, without the C

Image

Importer? That's an interesting idea. There used to be a big arsenal in Watertown. But that was an arsenal, not an importer.
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Re: Strange marking on Winchester 92 Carbine?

Post by MrMurphy »

A group of 92's were used in WW1 aboard English ships for boarding parties and shore details when getting Lee-Enfields (or even Lee-Metfords or anything else bolt action) was getting tough, early in the war.

I've seen pics of a Royal Navy issued 92 in .44-40, 20". Apparently the seamen, used to something with more range, were not overly impressed, though for a boarding party, the shorter length would sure come in handy (which is why in WW2 the Lanchester, a copy of the German MP28 subgun, stayed in service from 1941-1960s).
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Re: Strange marking on Winchester 92 Carbine?

Post by Pisgah »

Livestock brand?
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Re: Strange marking on Winchester 92 Carbine?

Post by GregT »

I checked several Japanese rifle reference books and can find no marking remotely similar to yours.
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Re: Strange marking on Winchester 92 Carbine?

Post by gamekeeper »

I have never seen a British Broad Arrow like that one and I would assume, maybe wrongly, that the Winchester would also have British Proof Marks.
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Re: Strange marking on Winchester 92 Carbine?

Post by JRD »

Howdy Driftwood.
Farmer Jay here. I have a rifle just like yours that you probably even saw before at Manville years back. Mine is polished and reblued, has the same stamp on the side of the receiver, a similar import stamp on the lower tang (mine was imported by Century Arms in Vermont though), and was made about the same year. I can't remember who, but I even remember comparing marks with another shooter whose had a similar gun at Manville.

Your rifle was imported from South America after the GCA of '68. Mike D. had it right as an import. Northeast is the name of the importer and they were the located in Watertown. ATF requires the importers name and city, state be marked on guns. Look at all the Lee-Enfields, SKS's, Mosin-Nagants et cetera that were imported in the 90's. They are all marked CAI, China Sports, or other importers. Even some 80's imported Garands and Carbines are marked "Blue Sky".

I don't know what the stamp on the left side means but it's definately not a British broad arrow. The mark is on guns that have come back from South America though. Winchester leverguns and S&W revolvers were probably pretty popular back in that time frame down there. I have also even seen a S&W 44 HE 2nd model in 44 Spl with an import stamp. It had no finish, a sawed off barrel, and very worn MOP grips. It looked like it did a lot of time as some banditos belly gun.

Nice gun. I hope you enjoy shooting it.

Jason
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Re: Strange marking on Winchester 92 Carbine?

Post by Driftwood Johnson »

Howdy Jay, nice to hear from you.

I did not get down to shoot with the Lincoln County guys at all this year. I did make a trip to Springfield and toured your factory though. Very interesting.

Thanks for your information. I bought the gun just over the line in NH, and thinking that Winchester had shipped it to Watertown I was under the impression that it had not traveled very far in its life. I guess traveling to South America changes all that. I do own a Belgian made Browning High Power that was imported into this country from Argentina. I'll have to look at it again to see if it has any similar markings on it.

Other than being imported after 1968, do you happen to have any idea of about when it might have been imported?
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Re: Strange marking on Winchester 92 Carbine?

Post by JB »

I agree it's not a British broad arrow mark. I don't have a clue what it is though.
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Re: Strange marking on Winchester 92 Carbine?

Post by Phideaux »

Like JRD, I have a 1916 vintage with the exact same markings, mine is also a Century Arms, St. Albans marked gun. Mine is in a little worse condition, way to much polishing before the reblue. I have not been able to find any information about the gun either, please post any additional information you get.

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Re: Strange marking on Winchester 92 Carbine?

Post by awp101 »

OK, after posting I did some digging around. The closest "Empire" acceptance stamp I can find is from Pakistan while it was still under British rule. The stamp looks like the Broad Arrow over an I. The stamp on this rifle looks more like a tree.

Just musing to myself a bit over this one the following things ran through my head:

The 1919 DoB is obviously too late for WWI service but given the fact we sent civilian arms across the pond in the early days of WWII doesn't rule out it's use as a stop gap weapon until "proper" military weapons were acquired. WWII usage could also explain the stamp that may or may not be Pakistani.

Is it stamped anywhere (probably on the barrel, close to the receiver) with a collection of numbers and letters that look like mumbo-jumbo and maybe a BNP? Every firearm I've seen exported for civilian sale from the UK has stamps indicating that it was tested (pressure tested? I don't recall) prior to export.

I just went back and re-read some of the responses. The South American connection is intriguing. Argentina, Chile and Brazil would be good places to start researching the stamp...
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Re: Strange marking on Winchester 92 Carbine?

Post by pwl44m »

I just saw a nice looking 92 in 44wcf last week. It had been reblued, not a bad job- looked almost home done.I think the price was $1099 which didn't seem bad but the reblue killed it. I will have to go back next week and look at it again to see if it has some of those markings You indicate.
I have a Broom Handle Mauser that U have to look real hard to find the import stamp. I have a hard time finding it knowing it has one.
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Re: Strange marking on Winchester 92 Carbine?

Post by kimwcook »

I'd give Jim of Steve a call. They've more than likely ran across that stamp before.

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Re: Strange marking on Winchester 92 Carbine?

Post by pwl44m »

Went back and looked at the one I posted about and it didn't have any extra markings. Just a nice looking Gun with a too shiny reblue. And the price was $ 1150
That shop has several old Winnys, 94s, 92s 95s ( 1 says 30 US and the other 1 says 30 GOVT 06 ) a 63, even a nice looking old Savage 99
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Re: Strange marking on Winchester 92 Carbine?

Post by Driftwood Johnson »

Went back and looked at the one I posted about and it didn't have any extra markings. Just a nice looking Gun with a too shiny reblue. And the price was $ 1150
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Re: Strange marking on Winchester 92 Carbine?

Post by kimwcook »

I emailed Steve Bly with Tapadera's Winchesters and this is what he and his partner had to say about the marking.

Kim . . thanks for the note. While we can't identify the markings, here are some ideas.
1st -- it is NOT a foreign government proofmark. That would have been stamped into the receiver and barrel, and this is a hand drawn symbol.
So it is something an individual did to identify his gun.
Yes, it could be oriental, but this symbol is not in either the basic Japanese or Chinese alphabet.
Our guess is that it's a Pinetree Double Bar brand from some ranch. (could be just Tree Double Bar).
Western ranches often put their brand on firearms.
Whatever it is, it's an individual symbol for identifying the gun.
And a lot more interesting than just etching a social security number.

The plot thickens.
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Re: Strange marking on Winchester 92 Carbine?

Post by cubrock »

kimwcook wrote:I emailed Steve Bly with Tapadera's Winchesters and this is what he and his partner had to say about the marking.

Kim . . thanks for the note. While we can't identify the markings, here are some ideas.
1st -- it is NOT a foreign government proofmark. That would have been stamped into the receiver and barrel, and this is a hand drawn symbol.
So it is something an individual did to identify his gun.
Yes, it could be oriental, but this symbol is not in either the basic Japanese or Chinese alphabet.
Our guess is that it's a Pinetree Double Bar brand from some ranch. (could be just Tree Double Bar).
Western ranches often put their brand on firearms.
Whatever it is, it's an individual symbol for identifying the gun.
And a lot more interesting than just etching a social security number.

The plot thickens.


Resurrecting this thread, as I just saw another 92 SRC in .44-40 with this same mark in the same place. Also reblued. Century import stamp. It is most definitely NOT a British broad arrow of any description. It also is most definitely NOT a marking done by an individual to ID his gun. I have seen several of these over the years, all so marked. It was undoubtedly done by a government of some country, since it shows up solely on import marked guns. Based on my military rifle collecting background, it looks very Asian to me. I'd be very interested to hear from anyone with any other info on this marking and why all of these guns with it are reblued. I'm guessing some sort of arsenal refurb.
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Re: Strange marking on Winchester 92 Carbine?

Post by awp101 »

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Re: Strange marking on Winchester 92 Carbine?

Post by Hobie »

I think that the other Chinese linguists here would agree that it isn't Chinese. Chinese stuff would be marked as Chinese, albeit in Chinese, ditto Korean and Japanese. Those are pretty clear. This is none of those. I lean towards the owner mark theory but I don't believe it is a government mark. All items I've seen marked with "brands" are very much in your face and not so small. Could it be tribal?
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Re: Strange marking on Winchester 92 Carbine?

Post by cubrock »

If it is an Asian mark, it would have to be pre-WWII, since all the observed guns so marked have fallen in the 1916-1919 SN range. My first guess was some sort of commercial proof by an Asian country, but that seems unlikely.

One thing I hadn't thought of would be a very large ranch, mine, or other commercial interest in Mexico or S. America. The confusing thing is that Century and other importers got their hands on them. Usually, the importers buy from governments, not from individuals or companies in other countries. Lots of 92 Winchesters were used by police agencies south of the border, but that doesn't explain the marking. Of course, given how gun control laws have tightened in many of these countries over the last century, it is possible they started in the private hands of some commercial interest, then wound up in government hands.

Very curious and very interesting. I think we can undoubtedly say it wasn't just "an individual." Too many with the same mark are extant for that.
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Re: Strange marking on Winchester 92 Carbine?

Post by GonnePhishin »

It does look like a pine tree to me as well. It also looks like it was hand etched with a sharp metal scribe, not stamped.
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Re: Strange marking on Winchester 92 Carbine?

Post by Lawyer Daggit »

Could it be the brand of a ranch? it looks almost like a stylised tree.
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Re: Strange marking on Winchester 92 Carbine?

Post by cubrock »

I wondered about a brand as well. I've also wondered if it is a provincial mark for a constabulary.
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Re: Strange marking on Winchester 92 Carbine?

Post by MrMurphy »

Spain's Guardia Civil (constabulary) used local-made copies of the 92 for decades.

Might be similar, but for someone else's country.
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Re: Strange marking on Winchester 92 Carbine?

Post by Cliff »

The unknown marking appears to be a Japanese number, I don't have access to their numbering system but they look very similar. Just a guess. Good Luck in your search.
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Re: Strange marking on Winchester 92 Carbine?

Post by cubrock »

Cliff wrote:The unknown marking appears to be a Japanese number, I don't have access to their numbering system but they look very similar. Just a guess. Good Luck in your search.

Thanks, Cliff. It does not match anything in the Japanese or Chinese alphabets. That was the first place I searched. :)
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Re: Strange marking on Winchester 92 Carbine?

Post by twobit »

Hello,

I know that this thread is ancient history but I have been working on a research survey of the Model 1892 rifles for more 7 years now and am trying to document what this marking really is. The more examples of it I can find will eventually help unravel the mystery. I hope! If Driftwood Johnson is still around could I please get the full serial number of the gun? If anyone else has a similarly marked rifle can I please also get the serial number? All of these marked guns are saddle ring carbines chambered in 44 WCF.


If anyone else has ANY Model 1892/92 rifle in any condition I would love to add them into my survey and I am glad to try to answer any questions you may have. http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=606355

Thanks so much
Michael
Last edited by twobit on Sun Mar 05, 2017 1:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Strange marking on Winchester 92 Carbine?

Post by Pete44ru »

.


I'm thinking that the "arrow"/"tree" brand smacks to me of the Philippines (Filipino: Republika ng Pilipinas), then re-imported, as posted earlier.

Has anybody checked under the buttplate for any possible additional markings/etc ?

In any event, that's a great find, for sure.


.
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Re: Strange marking on Winchester 92 Carbine?

Post by Chuck 100 yd »

Pisgah wrote:Livestock brand?
That was my first thought too.
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Re: Strange marking on Winchester 92 Carbine?

Post by twobit »

Here is what I know so far.

All four of the rifles are 44 WCF saddle ring carbines. All are refinished. One has German proofs and two others are marked on the lower tang with importer stamps. The two are different import companies. All three known serial numbers are in the 865803 to 875582 range corresponding to 1919 production. Therefore, all four rifles went to Europe and the marking is somehow related to something there.

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Re: Strange marking on Winchester 92 Carbine?

Post by Merle »

sureshot wrote:The mark on the side of the receiver looks like a British "broad arrow" mark. The rifle was probably a lend-lease to England during the war. The name on the lower tang is the importer that brought it back into the US.

Steve
Since it was made in 1919 that would seem unlikely.
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Re: Strange marking on Winchester 92 Carbine?

Post by twobit »

Updated again:

I sent an email to the owner of the rifle at the top of this post http://winchestercollector.org/forum/wi ... 92/#p59113 which prompted all of this effort and asked if his rifle had any "importers" stamp on the lower tang. Ta Da!! It in fact did, and was from Century Importers located in St Albans, Vermont. Then I started going through my spread sheet of rifles and decided to look at all the 44 WCF SRC's for which I had noted "Refinished" and that were +/- 1919 DOM. Ta Da again!!! I found three more carbines with SN 809028, 817884, and 849014 (earliest DOM 1916) which all had the exact same mark, were all refinished, and two more of them had Century Importers stamped on the lower tang!

One might quickly guess that the mark is something generated by Century Importers but we have guns in Europe not imported by Century and another rifle with Northeast Inc stamped on the lower tang. So no common thread there. Maybe Century Importers can shed some light on the markings if they happen to have old records documenting there European purchases and have them catalogued by original manufacturer, model, and serial number. And are willing to help.

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Re: Strange marking on Winchester 92 Carbine?

Post by cubrock »

Interesting this is resurrected now, as I was just talking about these guns with a friend at a gun show today.

I don't think you can tie them to something in Europe based on what info you have. If they had been imported into Germany from anywhere in the world, they would have to have been proofed and marked in Germany at the time of importation. Germany gets/has gotten surplus rifles over the years, just like we have here in the US.

I owned two of these rifles and have seen two others that aren't noted in this thread. All four were reblued. All four had refinished "gum wood" stocks. All four had excellent to like new bores. All four had Century import marks. A few years ago, I talked to someone who used to golf with a Century executive and asked him about these. He said he was told by said exec they came out of South America.
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Re: Strange marking on Winchester 92 Carbine?

Post by twobit »

cubrock wrote:Interesting this is resurrected now, as I was just talking about these guns with a friend at a gun show today.

I don't think you can tie them to something in Europe based on what info you have. If they had been imported into Germany from anywhere in the world, they would have to have been proofed and marked in Germany at the time of importation. Germany gets/has gotten surplus rifles over the years, just like we have here in the US.

I owned two of these rifles and have seen two others that aren't noted in this thread. All four were reblued. All four had refinished "gum wood" stocks. All four had excellent to like new bores. All four had Century import marks. A few years ago, I talked to someone who used to golf with a Century executive and asked him about these. He said he was told by said exec they came out of South America.
Thanks for replying Cubrock.

Do you happen to have the serial numbers of the ones you have owned and/or any photos of the rifles? I would love to add them into the data on this style of marking.

Thanks
Michael
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Re: Strange marking on Winchester 92 Carbine?

Post by cubrock »

I may have pictures of one of them. They would be archived on a separate drive from my main computer at this point. If I find them, I'll let you know. I don't remember serial numbers, but, if I have pictures, I should have pictures of the serial numbers.
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Re: Strange marking on Winchester 92 Carbine?

Post by twobit »

cubrock wrote:I may have pictures of one of them. They would be archived on a separate drive from my main computer at this point. If I find them, I'll let you know. I don't remember serial numbers, but, if I have pictures, I should have pictures of the serial numbers.
Cubrock,

That would be fantastic! I appreciate the effort. Thanks you.

Michael
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Re: Strange marking on Winchester 92 Carbine?

Post by 65bee »

Just got through reading Teddy Roosevelts' book on his 1913 Brazilian Expedition down the River of Doubt. He mentions in there about the local rubber gatherers all carrying Winchester .44 carbines for protection from Jaguars and hostile natives. Could the mark be a property ownership trademark of a rubber company, i.e. a rubber tree? By the way, its a great read. Although he personally carried a Springfield 30-06 sporter, his son Kermit carried his favorite Winchester .405; the same gun he carried on the 1909 African expedition. Tragically, the gun was lost when his dugout canoe overturned in rapids and he barely escaped with his life.
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Re: Strange marking on Winchester 92 Carbine?

Post by Merle »

65bee wrote:Just got through reading Teddy Roosevelts' book on his 1913 Brazilian Expedition down the River of Doubt. He mentions in there about the local rubber gatherers all carrying Winchester .44 carbines for protection from Jaguars and hostile natives. Could the mark be a property ownership trademark of a rubber company, i.e. a rubber tree? By the way, its a great read. Although he personally carried a Springfield 30-06 sporter, his son Kermit carried his favorite Winchester .405; the same gun he carried on the 1909 African expedition. Tragically, the gun was lost when his dugout canoe overturned in rapids and he barely escaped with his life.

HMMM, the first recorded tragic canoe accident? :shock:
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Re: Strange marking on Winchester 92 Carbine?

Post by AmBraCol »

65bee wrote:Just got through reading Teddy Roosevelts' book on his 1913 Brazilian Expedition down the River of Doubt. He mentions in there about the local rubber gatherers all carrying Winchester .44 carbines for protection from Jaguars and hostile natives. Could the mark be a property ownership trademark of a rubber company, i.e. a rubber tree? By the way, its a great read. Although he personally carried a Springfield 30-06 sporter, his son Kermit carried his favorite Winchester .405; the same gun he carried on the 1909 African expedition. Tragically, the gun was lost when his dugout canoe overturned in rapids and he barely escaped with his life.

Indeed, the rubber men, gold men and cattle men all favored both the 1873 and 1892 in 44-40. At one time I had a CBC 38-40 cartridge, but never saw a rifle in that caliber. They had to have existed there, but weren't very common. Never saw any rifle marked like that in my area of perambulation. (mostly between the Araguaia and Tocantins rivers and along the Balsas river in Maranhão)
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