411/416 Howell on Miroku 1895

[DuggaBoye]

Considering re-chambering a 3rd Gen. Winchester (Miroku) .405 to a 411 variant of the 416 Howell?

Case length
405 , 2.58
416 H, 2.5

Rim 405 , .543
Base 404 , .544

OAL
405 , 3.18
416 H , 3.365, 3.340 (2 sources)
(Proposed 411 variant Will be max 3.2)

Anyone know of a Gunsmith(s) that might consider the project

[3t-]

Google "Z-Hat", he does a lot of re-chambering of 1895s.

[Leverluver]

Unless you want a single shot, it will need some severe modification to the magazine, especially the bottom. The magazine gets shorter the further down it goes. The 405s are quite iffy longer than 3.19" or they will stick the bottom cartridge in the bottom of the magazine. That essentially disables the magazine because the spring cannot push the upper cartridges up to engage the bolt for feeding. The 30-06s and 270s are more forgiving of this but even so, best to keep 3.25 or so. I think the length you want would require a whole new magazine. Good luck.

[DuggaBoye]

Actually a slight mag mod fairly easily managed-- already have a long throated .405 shooting 3.2+ lengths without issue , even with heavy recoiling loads.

[Leverluver]

We'll see how easy that extra .15 OAL will be Keep us posted.

[Kansas Ed]

I'm curious why? The .405 in stock form is very formidable, and with factory equivilent loads is enough to take down about anything you encounter. Not to mention any recoil over stock starts getting tough to handle IMO. Just curious what you plan to gain there? I'm all for wildcats if they provide something the regular rifle/cartridge package doesn't

Ed

[DuggaBoye]

My thoughts were keeping pressure around 30-06 levels or less,

while pushing a 400 gr (or a 350-360) to levels energy levels above the 5400 joule minimums for DG (in many areas).

( The Miroku's are chambered in 270, which has a ANSI/SAAMI average pressure of 64,000,

and a proof load pressures of 83 to 90,000.)

The .405WCF even with handloads at very high pressure,

barely makes the minimum joules limit---

and more importantly, its' officially recognized CIP or SAAMI load does not qualify.

My current 400gr and 350 gr loads make the necessary energy , but well above CIP limits.

Most areas are more flexible as to "large rimless "wildcats" than old cartridges hot rodded above CIP pressure.

Which with the variability in African governments and officials it is more than a potential issue.

.405 WCF is specifically not approved for DG in some areas.


So, with minimal extractor, bolt face and magazine changes,

while keeping the OAL to 3.21'ish ,the proposed cartridge should easily reach energy requirements,

while having moderate pressures. Using a TD as the project rifle I could also build a .30 Howell front end.

[Kansas Ed]

Gotcha. I thought you were looking at North American Game. That makes a lot of sense then. It sure would be nice to see someone hunting DG with a '95 again. Bet Teddy would be proud!

One thing to consider when comparing the 270 to the larger cartridges though is the meat left in the chamber at the forward end of the cartridge. I'm not sure that an apples to apples comparison between the two cartridges where pressure is concerned is applicable when you consider that the barrel thickness at the end of the chamber is taken into account. I'm not discouraging the idea...I think it's great...just make sure you look at that variable.

Ed

[Dave James]

I second Z-hat he is a bit hard to get ahold off, but he has done a 95 in a 411 calibere it was a give away in some contest,believe it was Rifle mag.

[H_Talon]

Having done business with Z-Hat I would suggest you go else were.

I sent him a Miroku 1895 4 years ago and he just sent it back, and as I posted in

http://www.levergunscommunity.org/viewt ... =1&t=29222

4 years later I got it back, and I can't get a set of dies from him, he as usual dropped off the world
and isn't answering e-mails from me (no surprise there) or the wife (who he would rather work with)

so 3000.00 later I can't load a single round to see if it even works.

he has no phone #'s his listed address is a UPS mail drop. good luck getting a hold of him.

I will admit the work looks good, for a door brace, no Idea how it shoots though ...

sorry to rant,

I'd try Mazys they did 2 savage 99's for me (wish I had them do the 1895 in 35 whelien)

Talon

[DuggaBoye]

I have a 411 Hawk.

Great gun, though again it requires higher pressure to make the required 5400 Joules.

The idea I have is to get a 400 gr to slightly better than 2200fps @ CIP 30-06 pressure.

The modified Howell case gives a larger combustion chamber with which to reach that goal.

The barrel steel type and "meatiness" on the Miroku should be equal to the task.

[DuggaBoye]

Sad to hear that, Fred does good work.

[Leverluver]

Talon

Send me a pm. Not the ideal situation but I might be able to get you shooting that new rifle.

[H_Talon]

pm sent, and thanks for any help ...

Talon

ps ... sorry if I highjacked the thread ,,,

[86er]

Doesn't the Win '95 rely on staggering the cartridge rims for proper feeding? That is not a feature I'd want to count on in a dangerous game rifle. CRS made his 405 Win M95 able to shoot longer 400 gr .411 bullets at 2170 fps. That'd be equivalent to the good ol' 450/400 loading. The only change was a slight chamber ream. In a DG rifle, I think the less you tamper with the better off you'll be. I still can't get past the staggered cartridge rim loading necessity. I'm all for cool cartridges and gains. As a hunting client I'd let you shoot any rifle/cartrige that was legal, even a single shot. So I guess while I wouldn't trust it personally for DG work, I have a different perspective. I'll gladly provide protection for both of us with my double should it become necessary. Let us know if you get this done and how it's working out. It is very interesting.

[Dave James]

In the rimmed rounds your right, that may be why Z-Hat was useing the 06 and 270 version to convert for most of the Hawk rounds. Its really no different than the ole 303 enfield,only down side to the longer throat in big bore was a loss of one round from what I was reading.

The one Browning versiion I have in 30-40 was going to be converted to 35winchester, or 405 according to cartriges of the world I could get away with useing the krag brass as a base.was a good idea but its a safe queen now

Dugga you might talk with the boys over at accurate, it never stops to amaze me the info there on conversion or custrom gun builds. You might al so give AHR fire arms a try they build bolt stuff in the Howell round they may have a suggestion or two

Can't think of the guys name but there is a smith in Montana that works on 95's

[DuggaBoye]

Doesn't the Win '95 rely on staggering the cartridge rims for proper feeding? That is not a feature I'd want to count on in a dangerous game rifle. CRS made his 405 Win M95 able to shoot longer 400 gr .411 bullets at 2170 fps. That'd be equivalent to the good ol' 450/400 loading. The only change was a slight chamber ream. In a DG rifle, I think the less you tamper with the better off you'll be. I still can't get past the staggered cartridge rim loading necessity. I'm all for cool cartridges and gains. As a hunting client I'd let you shoot any rifle/cartrige that was legal, even a single shot. So I guess while I wouldn't trust it personally for DG work, I have a different perspective. I'll gladly provide protection for both of us with my double should it become necessary. Let us know if you get this done and how it's working out. It is very interesting.

As above the staggering is only due to the rim.

I have gotten jacketed 400s to 2080 and mono metals to 2070--did not like the "pressure signs"

Hopefully, the will get the project started soon-- I'm just digging for data--hoping someone else has trod a similar path.

PS: Have hunted with and LOVE double rifles-- but this idea has been crawling around my brain for a long time--

--because I also LOVE my 1895's

[DuggaBoye]

I

Dugga you might talk with the boys over at accurate, it never stops to amaze me the info there on conversion or custrom gun builds. You might al so give AHR fire arms a try they build bolt stuff in the Howell round they may have a suggestion or two

Can't think of the guys name but there is a smith in Montana that works on 95's

I started a post over there sometime back, got some good info, was advised "over there" to ask questions "over here"

You maybe thinking of Ed Webber--GREAT smith----LONG wait.

[KirkD]

To clarify a point 86er brought up, since I've no experience with the '95 but do have experience with rimmed cartridges in a vertical mag. If the top cartridge rim is loaded such that it is behind the rim of the cartridge beneath, it jams in my Lee Enfield. Does the 95 have this problem as well? Is that what 86er is concerned about?

[86er]

Yes, if the cartridges get out of staggered order it can jam up. I've had this happen to two clients - one was CRS on a nilgai hunt. The other was JDG on a buffalo. Can't afford the risk of a jam on dangerous game.

[BenT]

The way a 1895 is loaded keeps the rims in the correct order. You do not load the cartridge horizontal and push straight down . The cartridge is started verticaly , the rim is placed into a cutout in the middle of the magzine feed lips and then pushed down to a horizontal position. When this happens the rim slides rearward of course while the front of the cartridge snaps down into place. So each following cartridge rim is stacked in the correct order for removal . So the cartridges are stacked on top of each other, but staggered forward.

[BenT]

86er , do think the rims got out of order because of recoil ? If the loading instuctions are followed ,I don't see how they would be stacked incorrectly.

[86er]

I don't know, I am not a '95 owner. I distinctly remember CRS fiddling around in the rifle with a pocket knife after each shot ... LOL.

[crs]

And I had thought the ribbing was over on that one!

[Mike D.]

WHAT? Why would want to use a pocket knife on a '95? I have been shooting my beater .30-06 carbine for years and it has never failed to feed a single round. Fast to load and shoot. The magazine can be emptied as fast as you can work the lever. I have done that many times on fast running 'yotes.

[crs]

OK Mike, wipe that grin off your face, buy me a beer, and I will tell otherewise, it goes to the grave with me- not soon I hope.

[Mike D.]

Ricky, maybe the feed issue with the .405 is due to the "fat sausage" cartridge, but even my .35 was a smooth feeder. I'm gonna take my '06 and 1886 .45-90 down in search of a buck, or maybe a pig, this weekend. If nothing else, I'll do my best to wear the 62A out killing ground squirrels.

[RDB]

BITD...Browning made the new '95s. I wanted a 405 and then read over and over again where the 405 and 30/40 would jam on the rim. Sems liek someone mnetioned that hunting Africa. Sounded like a design defect to me: Bad ammo the reason. So I bought a '95 in 30/06 and promply rebored and rechambered it to .375 Scoville. 300g .375 bullets are cheep and easy push @ 2200fps. The 300s will shoot through most anything that pumps blood or a the occasional tractor if required