Modern mountain man choices...

Steve Collins · Post by **Steve Collins** » Wed May 05, 2010 9:48 am

So, after watching 'Jeremiah Johnson' for the 100th time last night, I got to thinking: if you were heading out to the mountains today, no TEOTWAWKI type stuff, just going off to be a mountain man, what guns would you take with you? Keeping in mind that you'll be a ways away from the gunsmith, on your own.

For me, it'd be a Ruger Super Blackhawk .44 Magnum; my pre-'64 Winchester model 70 30'06; Winchester Wrangler .44 Magnum levergun, Winchester model 62A .22 pump rifle, and my NEF Pardner 12 gauge single shot 12 gauge, barrel cut to 20". Plus, chamber adapters for the 12 gauge, so I could shoot a variety of different calibers out of it, if need be.

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Wed May 05, 2010 9:58 am

[Modern mountain man choices...]

Don't forget a Blackberry, 'case there Wi-Fi available.

.

C. Cash · Post by **C. Cash** » Wed May 05, 2010 10:11 am

Ruger Single Six as a trapping/opportunity gun.
A Win. 94 Trapper 44 Mag.
Ruger Super Blackhawk 44 Mag.
Stevens 311 Double

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Wed May 05, 2010 10:20 am

If you're mobile, that's a lot of guns to drag around.

The guys that I've heard of that spend the most time in the hills, or northwoods (about the closest thing to a modern day mountain man) seem to use bolt guns in common medium calibers, and a 22 rifle or 22 pistol. Having lived in the Rockies for 20 some years, I've never found much use for a shotgun of any sort, other than what would be termed "sport hunting", not meat making. Other places may be different, but here, that's my experience. I can shoot small game and grouse with any centerfire rifle with light loads, or a 22 pistol, and not have to have another gun and loads around.

I hear about guys mentioning that muzzle loaders are the gun for feeding oneself. I havent figured that out yet. The suggestion is that you can shoot heavy or light loads depending on what you want to kill. So, do you carry the gun around empty, then see something, and load appropriately, or have it loaded, then pull the charge and reload for small game or whatever? A cartridge gun gives up nothing in versatility, and is far simpler to swap loads and care for. There simply is no place so far out and away that primers or ammo can't be had, in the lower 48 or Alaska/Canada bush.

For myself, if living out for a long period, I'd take a bolt 30-06 and 22 pistol. A 1903 Springfield or Mauser sporter, and Smith K-22 to be specific, or an older Ruger 77 w/ tang safety if I couldnt lay hands on one of the others. If I had a place to base out of way out, I'd have a couple more guns, but those two would do about anything that needed done, with the most flexibility and usefulness for their size and weight.

Townsend Whelen mentioned spending months out in the Canadain Rockies on horses in the early part of the 20th century with another guy. They lived by their rifles for the most part. He took a bolt 270 or 30-06, I don't recall which. He found it to be perfect for such use, with regular full power loads and some light loads. I agree with him.

C. Cash · Post by **C. Cash** » Wed May 05, 2010 10:34 am

Just to clarify, I would assume having a mule or horse or two with me to pack in the Shotgun. It would probably be more defensive so not tons of shotgun shells, though taking an odd game animal that you couldn't pot with a shot from the rifle or pistol would be welcome so I would carry all that was possible. I would be handy for any of the two legged critters or pitt bulls running around. A bolt gun maybe, but unless it has irons, that scope is going to get beat on everyday.

PS: Malamute, I think Whelen and his partner used Levers with Cast Bullets in the Canadian Rockies no?

Post by **Hobie** » Wed May 05, 2010 10:42 am

Malamute,

You're correct about Whelen, it was a .30-06 Springfield and I believe he had some light or gallery loads. Not sure what he called them. I don't think he took loading equipment either. I believe he was writing On Your Own in the Wilderness at the time of his death so it was finished by Bradford Angier. However, much of it was based on his experiences in that sojourn. He also wrote Wilderness Hunting and Wildcraft. Anyway, the sub-loads used to be the way to handle such a circumstance with such ammunition produced by the big ammo companies.

I have never understood the muzzleloader idea as it was abandoned as quickly as the superior technology of cartridge arms and funds to purchase it were available and that decision was based on experience.

I'd like to see one of these, might have to buy it!

PS - Col. Whelen’s pet small-game load for his .30-’06 consisted of a 150-grain Full Metal Jacket (FMJ) bullet travelling at 1600 feet per second. He used 18 grains of Dupont 4759 powder and a Federal #210 primer, delivering 852 foot-pounds of energy. From 1916 on, Whelen used this loading to take "grouse, rabbits, squirrels, muskrat, conejo, sloth, paca, crested guan . . . mink, otter and beaver." How he differentiated between these and his full on hunting loads was likely by bullet type with the big game loads being soft points.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Wed May 05, 2010 10:46 am

(2) of these both in 30-06
http://www.tcarms.com/firearms/firearmD ... hp?ID=5870

(2) of these in .22/.22mag
http://www.ruger.com/products/newModelS ... odels.html

and my Ithaca 37 deerslayer 12ga (Dura Coat finish)

Oh, and 1 of these stuck in the inside pocket of my leather vest!
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... =159352247

KentuckyLevrgunr · Post by **KentuckyLevrgunr** » Wed May 05, 2010 11:24 am

I don't see how you could go wrong with one of those Savage 12 ga/30-30 over and under combo guns. If I felt like I could get away having more than gun, it would be an 870 or M12 12 gauge pump (have interchangeable chokes installed in the M12), a Winchester 71 in .348 and a Super Blackhawk in .44 mag. If I had to drop one of the three, I'd loose the Blackhawk. In a "mountain man" situation, I feel like having a shotgun and a centerfire rifle make a rimfire rifle almost dead weight.

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Wed May 05, 2010 11:52 am

Steve Collins wrote:SoFor me, it'd be a Ruger Super Blackhawk .44 Magnum; my pre-'64 Winchester model 70 30'06; Winchester Wrangler .44 Magnum levergun, Winchester model 62A .22 pump rifle, and my NEF Pardner 12 gauge single shot 12 gauge, barrel cut to 20". Plus, chamber adapters for the 12 gauge, so I could shoot a variety of different calibers out of it, if need be.

That's a gawdawful lot of scrap iron to be draggin around on your back. If you're stationary in a cabin I suppose it's alright, but then what ya gonna do for income to feed the things.
Having spent my entire life here in the Rockies, if you're going to a susistance type of life style, a 22 pistol , a 30-30 carbine, and a couple of boxes of shells for each will last you several years.

2X22 · Post by **2X22** » Wed May 05, 2010 12:33 pm

Well, I usually AM a 'mountain man' for several months of the year, at least for the past 35 years or so. Nothing much longer than 2 months however and that is in the late summer to mid Fall in the high country. Grouse, bear and deer are on my radar.

I've always taken a levergun and a .44 pistol. For years the levergun was a 25-35 or 30-30. Over the last 12-15 years that's changed to a Marlin 44 levergun with a 2-7X Leupold. I carry a very heavy load for the rifle (260gr cast @ 1800fps) and a fairly light load (255gr SWC @850-900fps) for the pistol. The rifle is used for most everything unless I've left it in camp while out scouting or just piddling around, which there is a LOT of while out that long. Many grouse have fallen into the dinner pot with that light load, not to mention a couple deer!

In the high alpine country shots become relatively close because once you've been living there for a time, time slows down. No longer is one bound to taking the first buck or even the first nice buck or bear you see. Lots of spotting, lots of hiking, lots of dozing. I really can't remember taking a shot longer than 125 yards, something the .44 in a rifle is wonderful for and most under 75 yards. And this in fairly open mountain country.

A fellow can play mountain man for quite some time without firing a lot of shots. Most of my shooting will be directed toward securing a blue grouse or snowshoe rabbit dinner. A single box of shells for the rifle and my loaded pistol along with 15 more on my belt have never came close to being shot up. Shootin' just to be shooin' isn't something a mountain man does much of

2x22

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Wed May 05, 2010 12:37 pm

Around here a SingleSix and a 30WCF would do nicely. A good fishing pole, too.

765x53 · Post by **765x53** » Wed May 05, 2010 1:25 pm

A .22, a 12 gauge modified choke, and some # 1 1/2 traps will keep you feed anywhere in the world.
The .22 can be a single shot or a revolver, the shotgun would be a single or a pump, though a bolt action would also be reliable.

The last mountain man, Bill Casto also carried a slingshot.

What's the deal with everyone wanting to cut off their shotgun barrels making them useless as game guns?

336A · Post by **336A** » Wed May 05, 2010 2:07 pm

If I were lucky enough to have such an oppurtunity I would take along my S&W M10, Marlin .30-30 and a fishing pole with plenty of hooks and sinkers. I would bring 50 rounds for the .38 SPL loaded with 4.6gr of Unique under a 158gr SWC and probably 2 boxes of ammo for the rifle.

El Chivo · Post by **El Chivo** » Wed May 05, 2010 2:24 pm

the original mountain men, Lewis and Clark, took an airgun with them for small game. I would do that and a centerfire rifle like 30-30 or 35 Rem.

A .22 pistol would be good for small game also, but I couldn't use a pistol for small game without a scope. That's not very mountain-mannish.

Joel · Post by **Joel** » Wed May 05, 2010 2:27 pm

KentuckyLevrgunr wrote:I don't see how you could go wrong with one of those Savage 12 ga/30-30 over and under combo guns. If I felt like I could get away having more than gun, it would be an 870 or M12 12 gauge pump (have interchangeable chokes installed in the M12), a Winchester 71 in .348 and a Super Blackhawk in .44 mag. If I had to drop one of the three, I'd loose the Blackhawk. In a "mountain man" situation, I feel like having a shotgun and a centerfire rifle make a rimfire rifle almost dead weight.

Exactly what I was thinking, cept i'd opt for .308/12g. Maybe one of those take down .22 rifles too. I'd have a few spools of fishing line and basic tackle, couple knives and a hatchet, a skillet, and a few hundred rolls of Charmin

Old Time Hunter · Post by **Old Time Hunter** » Wed May 05, 2010 2:28 pm

Since I would have a mule or horse, the following would be my preference:

1. '94 Winchester, either my .444 or my .44 Trapper
2. .44 Mag Ruger Blackhawk
3. 870 Remington 12 ga
4. Lee hand press w/.44 Mag-Spl dies and a set of .444 dies (I can make the .44 Mag dies work for reloading the .444 if necessary)
5. A couple of boxes of 240 gr .430 JSP's
6. A 4lb container of Unique and a couple pounds of H4198.
7. A brick of either large rifle primers or large pistol primers ( I have used both in either the .44mag and the .444 and never had any issues).
8. A couple boxes of 3" 12ga turkey shells as they would work for anything up to 50-60 yards.
9. a solar blanket and a collapsable camo tent (the square one folds up in a backback and measures 6 X 6 across the bottom, 8' from opposing corners therefore you could sleep in it)
10. A darn good heavy wool Indian blanket for across my mule's back during the day and around my body at night.
11. and don't forget your mess kit...incuding matches, salt, coffee, iodine, and large bandage material.

Nath · Post by **Nath** » Wed May 05, 2010 2:31 pm

A flintlock in .54-.58 smooth or rifled and some spares and simple tools. My Granfors small forest axe, flint and my dog of course.

Nath.

BigSky56 · Post by **BigSky56** » Wed May 05, 2010 3:34 pm

Don pegged it a 30-30 for camp meat and the 22 pistol for fools hens and pests. danny

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Wed May 05, 2010 3:35 pm

Why waste valuable ammo on small game and birds, when they can be snared or trapped just as easily, and with a lot less noise & fuss. The firearms would be for the bigger stuff, especially the stuff that might eat you in return. You could make out very well with 1 or 2 good mule deer, or one elk for a year, if you smoked, dried or jerked the meat, and had a way to keep it away from bears & martens. A wrist-rocket type slingshot, with extra rubber bands could collect a huge pile of rabbits, birds or squirrels, and an envelope stuffed with fish hooks and monofilament could enable you to fish to your heart's content... Use worms, bugs, fish/critter guts for bait. or go in after 'em, bare handed...

I would take a .45 Colt revolver; a levergun in either the same .45 Colt, or maybe a .45-70, and if I can pack in on horseback, I might drag along my TTN 12-ga. double, just because. The .45 Colt would do good double duty, and ammo is lighter and more compact. Shotgun ammo is both heavy and bulky, and may not be an ideal choice. The .45-70 might be a good compromise in stead of the shotgun...

So many choices, but really a narrow window of aplication, in the real world.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Wed May 05, 2010 4:26 pm

Nath wrote:A flintlock in .54-.58 smooth or rifled and some spares and simple tools. My Granfors small forest axe, flint and my dog of course.

Nath.

Nath my friend, no doubt in my mind you would be eating well

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Wed May 05, 2010 4:28 pm

If all else fais, eat the dog...

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Wed May 05, 2010 4:33 pm

Modern folks tend to "undersimplify." The want to be specifically prepared for any scenario that presents itself, instead of learning to apply the fewest possible tools to as many jobs as may come up.

Remember, MOBILITY may be the key to your survival, in the situation presented in the OP. Too much "stuff" becomes an anchor, and winds up "owning" the man...

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Wed May 05, 2010 4:48 pm

The OP said not a bad times or TEOTWAWKI, so I would plan on hitting town every so often.....A lot of you mountain men better remember the meds you're on

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Wed May 05, 2010 5:10 pm

Buck Elliott wrote:If all else fais, eat the dog...

Think I would rather starve, and let the dog eat whats left of me!

but anyway ----If no women ---------no mountain man living too long!(and without a fine figured women that aint long)at all

You's other mountain guys can hang with each other for the long haul!

C. Cash · Post by **C. Cash** » Wed May 05, 2010 5:32 pm

madman4570 wrote:
Buck Elliott wrote:If all else fais, eat the dog...
but anyway ----If no women ---------no mountain man living too long!(and without a fine figured women that aint long)at all

"Full time night woman? I never could find no tracks on a woman's heart. I packed me a squaw for ten year, Pilgrim. Cheyenne, she were...
I lodge-poled her at Deadwood Creek, and traded her for a Hawken gun. But don't get me wrong; I loves the womens, I surely do. But I swear, a woman's breast is the hardest rock that the Almighty ever made on this earth, and I can find no sign on it." Bear Claw Chris Lapp

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Wed May 05, 2010 5:35 pm

I like the .308/20ga Savage idea, and the AIR rifle idea.

Since I don't have the Savage, I'd take my pellet rifle (.17 cal), and go with the .44 Magnum handgun/carbine combo, most likely. If truly convinced I'd need LONG range capability, I suppose a .308 bolt-gun would be ok, or maybe I'd stick with the .429" theme, and work up a long-distance load for the XLR Marlin .444...

firefuzz · Post by **firefuzz** » Wed May 05, 2010 5:50 pm

I'd like to say I'd take my '86 .45-70, but it's too heavy for walking. It'd be ok for a packed gun, but I don't want to carry it over miles of walking. Right now I'd take either my '03 Springfield or '95 Browning, both are .30-06, with cartridge inserts for .32acp and a Model 19 S&W in .357. If I get the Browning rebarreled to .35 Whelen I'd carry inserts for .38/357.

BTW, the air rifle Lewis and Clarke carried was probably larger than a .40 cal, not what we think of today as an air rifle.

Rob

L_Kilkenny · Post by **L_Kilkenny** » Wed May 05, 2010 5:52 pm

Give me a .44 Blackhawk, a 10/22, a 12ga pump and a ..................

Sporterized 6.5mm Swede Mauser! Or any sporterized milsurp Mauser for that matter.

Can't get much more reliable than that.

LK

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Wed May 05, 2010 6:37 pm

My .53 cal Hawken... AFTER I convert it to a flinter; and my 4 1851s, along with fishing line & hooks. An assortment of knives, 'hawk and my large possibles bag in addition to my shooting pouch.

But without my REI mummy bag I'll be runnin' home after the first snow!

iceman · Post by **iceman** » Wed May 05, 2010 7:59 pm

A double shotgun is reliable, if one side quits working you still have another side. The only problem is bulky ammo. I would probably lean towards a 30-30 carbine and a 22 revolver. Both reliable and ammo doesn't take up much room.

gak · Post by **gak** » Wed May 05, 2010 8:26 pm

92 44 Mag 20" carbine accompanied by 5.5" Vaquero or Blackhawk in same. Single Six .22 convertible - 4-5/8".

RIHMFIRE · Post by **RIHMFIRE** » Wed May 05, 2010 8:34 pm

S&W 629 44 mag
Winchester 94 in 44 mag
Winchester model 86 or 71
and a short rem 870 in 12

take downs would be nice

Andrew · Post by **Andrew** » Wed May 05, 2010 9:45 pm

If I were to "mountain man" it out here in Missouri or even northern Arkansas all I would need would be some snares, hooks, my Blackhawk in .45 and a good .22mag. If it wasn't for the ever elusive, but still very real, cougars and black bear I wouldn't even need the Blackhawk.

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Wed May 05, 2010 9:52 pm

I go and do this ever year for a short period of time, would probably just extend the time in the woods. I would carry either my .54 flintlock rifle, or my .62 caliber smoothbore. With it would go my possibles bag, bed roll, canteen, horn hatchet, knife, fishing gear,take down long bow, quiver with 2 dozen arrows and various tips. I would also carry my game bag, and 6 snares. I have a medical kit, water treatment, revolver (.357) ammo, fire making kit, jerky, loaf of bread, cheese, hygiene items. Maps, and compass if in a different area.

If I needed to do this further west , I would switch my pistol to my .475 Linebaugh, and carry my paradox, and put the gear in my internal frame pack, with bow and quiver on the outside. that pack has gear in it to support walking on trails for very extended periods of time. I could always put the wild west guns co-pilot in the pack.

Lawyer Daggit · Post by **Lawyer Daggit** » Thu May 06, 2010 12:35 am

For the purpose of this exercise are we mobile or in a hut, and if mobile how are we moving around?

Weight obviously plays a big part in such choice, as does the issue of re-supply of ammo.

Steve Collins · Post by **Steve Collins** » Thu May 06, 2010 7:25 am

Lawyer Daggit wrote:For the purpose of this exercise are we mobile or in a hut, and if mobile how are we moving around?

Weight obviously plays a big part in such choice, as does the issue of re-supply of ammo.

Pernament base of operations. Nothing extravagent, along the lines of a trappers cabin, maybe a little bigger, depending on what tools you brought with you.

Ya'll got me thinking. More traps, less shootin' irons!

One each, pistol, rifle, shotgun. .44 Magnum rifle & pistol, single shot shotgun. Not going to be involved in running gunfights, that's why I went to the mountains! Should be able to keep track of my brass, and reload it. Shotgun for those times when I just can't hit anything, or the critters are being a little more cagey.

C. Cash · Post by **C. Cash** » Thu May 06, 2010 8:43 am

I love the little H and R Topper Single Shot Shotguns. I have always had one since the age of 12. BUT, much as I like them, I would only trust a gun with a coil mainspring. The leaf spring on my first H and R broke on me at a most inopportune time. I heard a person creeping on my front porch one night, loaded it up, tried to cock it and "snap"....mainspring broke. Kind of nightmarish. Luckily the mettalic sound was enough to send the dude flying off my porch but that sort of thing leaves an impression. The Winchesters and Savage's have the coil mainspring...would go with that for sure if considering a single shot shotgun to stake my life on. My Winchester 37A would most likely get the nod for that role.

Modoc ED · Post by **Modoc ED** » Thu May 06, 2010 9:03 am

You guys are kidding right??????

I'm old, my knees hurt like heck, I like (no need) something sturdy to sit on while doing my business, and I like to eat as much as I want whenever I want.

Should tradgedy strike, I will only need a gun of a caliber sufficient to take food away from those that have it.

greyowl · Post by **greyowl** » Thu May 06, 2010 10:44 am

In my part of the world, Maine, if I were to try and hide out up in the Allagash let's say, I'd take my Marlin 336 30-30 and Ruger Single Six 22 LR. This would be a place where you'd be on foot or could use a canoe in some spots, so a lot of firearms just wouldn't work well. If I was setting up a cabin and could make a couple trips in with "stuff", I'd add my Browning BPS 20 gauge and Henry 22 LR lever rifle.

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Thu May 06, 2010 11:27 am

Trapper/hunter cabins tended to be on the smallish side. Back when the tusk hunters were culling the Yellowstone elk herds, those boys built shelters so small they had to come outside just to change their minds. I've run across remnants of these "cabins" that were no more than 5 X 6 feet, usually dug into a hillside or on a small sheltered rise along a creek bank. Walls were seldom more than 3" high, even when "new" and being lived in. a place for a bed on one wall, with a tiny stove or fireplace in a corner, away from the door, pretty well describes the set-up. Remember too, that the tuskers became an object of manhunts by the folks in Jackson's Hole, because of the sudden and catastrophic demise of the elk herds. It behooved the tuskers to lie low, and be very much invisible, if possible.

2ndovc · Post by **2ndovc** » Thu May 06, 2010 11:46 am

My '03 Springfield sporter/ .30-06, Marlin 39a .22 and Ruger SBH .44mag. if living small and light with a horse or mule.

If I were to move into my cabin and go hermit which I have thought of doing on more than one occasion, I would add my Marlin LTDIII/ 45-70 and model 12, 20 gage.
Along with traps, snares and other stuff.

jb

Nath · Post by **Nath** » Thu May 06, 2010 12:14 pm

Eat the dog ! Thats just mean Buck, maybe if I was from Korea.

No, she would be real handi pointing out small and big game, would help with guarding toothed critters too.

The Muzzleloader I would carry would do double duty, loaded down for small stuff etc.

No point carrying a shop full of stuff.

N.

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Thu May 06, 2010 12:35 pm

White Mountain men and their Red Mentors ate dog with gusto (..no catsup or BBQ sauce available...) and a feted guest of honor often was given a bowl of dog stew, including the front paws...

2ndovc · Post by **2ndovc** » Thu May 06, 2010 12:41 pm

Buck Elliott wrote:White Mountain men and their Red Mentors ate dog with gusto (..no catsup or BBQ sauce available...) and a feted guest of honor often was given a bowl of dog stew, including the front paws...

Lewis and Clark also consumed mass quantities of dog during their expidetion to the Pacific. Game was scarce on the return trip before crossing the Rockies.

But I'm with Madman. I ain't eating my dog!

jb

Post by **Hobie** » Thu May 06, 2010 12:55 pm

Dog ain't so bad particularly with some condiments and sans paws. Honest! Blaine knows...

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Thu May 06, 2010 1:06 pm

Hobie wrote:Dog ain't so bad particularly with some condiments and sans paws. Honest! Blaine knows...

Out Gate #1 down from the PX, turn right, go for a mile or two, several Kay-Gogi joints clustered together. Supposed to put lead in yer pencil....Arf

Post by **Hobie** » Thu May 06, 2010 2:10 pm

Yep, we had one just outside the Embassy Compound gate. Most of us had no trouble writing... Mashitun! 맛있은!

Nath · Post by **Nath** » Thu May 06, 2010 2:13 pm

Ok ok ok, maybe when she is to old to hunt then

Hope she can not read this

N.

zack coyote · Post by **zack coyote** » Thu May 06, 2010 6:32 pm

I think my 94 Winny in 30-30 and my .22 Colt scout, plus a bag of spare parts would do just fine. Easy to carry, easy to fix. Not to much ammo needed if I could get into town every once in a while. One large Bowie, a smallish knife, plus a multi tool. I'll keep my black lab by my side. He's no hunter, but a great early warning system. I'd keep a horse or two, they're easy to refuel almost anywhere.

stretch · Post by **stretch** » Thu May 06, 2010 7:42 pm

What BlaineG said - a SingleSix and a 30-30.

But which 30-30?!

A Marlin 336, or an H&R Handi-Rifle?

(I actually love the 35 Remington more, but ammunition
is much more readily available for the 30-30, as are
suitable 30 caliber bullets. So, mebbe the 30-30...

)

A couple hundred rounds of 30-30, and one or two boxes
of that cheap bulk Federal 22 stuff and one would be well
set fo quite awhile.
-Stretch