50-110 vs 50 Alaskan

SubDoc · Post by **SubDoc** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 5:28 pm

I am looking at getting a conversion done by DRC or Reg Nonneman and I am not sure which cartridge to go with. the 50-110 has history but the 50 Alaskan is more readily available.

I can't find(modern) 50-110 ballistics anywhere. Do any of you have a conversion? I seem to remember JT doing an article on the 50-110 in Guns a few years ago but I guess I did not archive that article.

86er · Post by **86er** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 5:47 pm

I've hunted with a Marlin converted 50 AK with 500 gr bullets @ 1900 fps. I've also hosted two clients that used a 50-110, both shooting the same weight bullet @ the same velocity. Both clients were Win 71 conversions. Personally, I liked the Win's better due to the weight, longer barrel and slightly longer stock length. With the 50 AK I shot a Watusi bull that was wounded by a client and charged us. Hit it the face (me and the bull), the bull went down dead. One of the clients sent a bullet into a water buffalo's shoulder and it went down and needed one more finisher. The second shot a moose and it was interesting that the moose seemed unphased, but walked 50 yds, layed on it's belly for a few seconds and then it's head hit the ground. Now those two 50-100's were cast bullets and the 50 AK was shootin' Kodiak bullets. That's all the info I have on either.

buckeyeshooter · Post by **buckeyeshooter** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 7:46 pm

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Here is what I can offer in the way of information. Both cases are available through Starline. I use 535 Woodleighs (@ 2040fps), 450 Barnes Originals (@ 2200fps). 300 Barnes Originals (@2580fps) and 500 grain leads from a Lee mold in my 50 Alaskan. My gun has a full 26 inch barrel on it so the ballistics are a bit better than a 50AK Shorty. The 50 AK likes Reloader 7 for a powder. I could probably load 'hotter' but it works better than fine as is. The 50-110 can theroetically be loaded faster because of case capacity. I shoot a Marlin so Turnbull was not interested in doing a 50-110, they said it was enough work to get a 50ak to work. I load to 2.55 OAL on all cartridges. The gun is more accurate than I can shoot it. I think either will fill the need for a high power lever gun. If you want the 'biggest and baddest' the 50-110 offers a bit more and the 510 Kodiak Express a bit more yet. Both of the ladder cartridges are going to have to be done on the winchester platform because of length. The Marlin seems to be holding up fine, except that after 20 rounds you must tighten up some of the screws that have shaken loose ( I suppose I could loctite them).

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 7:59 pm

86er wrote:I've hunted with a Marlin converted 50 AK with 500 gr bullets @ 1900 fps. I've also hosted two clients that used a 50-110, both shooting the same weight bullet @ the same velocity. Both clients were Win 71 conversions. Personally, I liked the Win's better due to the weight, longer barrel and slightly longer stock length. With the 50 AK I shot a Watusi bull that was wounded by a client and charged us. Hit it the face (me and the bull), the bull went down dead. One of the clients sent a bullet into a water buffalo's shoulder and it went down and needed one more finisher. The second shot a moose and it was interesting that the moose seemed unphased, but walked 50 yds, layed on it's belly for a few seconds and then it's head hit the ground. Now those two 50-100's were cast bullets and the 50 AK was shootin' Kodiak bullets. That's all the info I have on either.

Shows you just hOw DUMB a moose is. Poor thing didn't realize IT WAS DEAD...

Thunder50 · Post by **Thunder50** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 8:24 pm

Check out JES reboring for a reboring/conversion.

foxtrapper · Post by **foxtrapper** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 2:52 pm

Buckeyeshooter what 500gr Lee mold do you use for the 50AK? Is it a gaschecked bullet? I use the 525 Cast Performance in mine.

buckeyeshooter · Post by **buckeyeshooter** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 3:56 pm

Lee Part number 90266. I don't bother with gas checks as I get little to no leading. I just cast, quench, lube and load. They work great for practice. Much less cost (read free) on these using recast lead bullets reclaimed from the backstop than buying cast performance.

tman · Post by **tman** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 5:19 pm

Thunder50 wrote:Check out JES reboring for a reboring/conversion.

i see that he takes a standard 94 and converts it to .375 winchester. is this safe? i thought there was a pressure difference between the 30wcf and the 375wcf? if it's safe, i would like to do this.

BigSky56 · Post by **BigSky56** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 6:05 pm

From Snooky Williamsons Lever Legacy book Win 50-110 or 50 Bear Express with a 1-54 inch twist in a 1886 with a 26" bbl.
barnes 300 grn pushed by 70 grs of IMR3031 gives you 2000 fps 17/8" group and a 450 grn barnes pushed by 65 grs of 3031 gives you 1765 fps for a 23/4" group there is a cast load 350 gr with 35 grs of IMR4198 for 1730 fps 31/8" group. danny

CowboyTutt · Post by **CowboyTutt** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 7:49 pm

I believe Mic's 510 Kodiak Express is just a 50-110 case loaded to higher pressure that modern 1886 rifles and Marlin's that Mic converts can handle. He puts a very slight shoulder on the case so it can't be loaded into an antique 50-110 rifle for safety purposes. Furthermore, while Mic started making these on Marlins which is a very expensive project and requires extensive modification, he has done more than one now on modern 1886 rifles and they require a lot less work. If it were me, I'd go with the Kodiak Express.

-Tutt

JFE · Post by **JFE** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:35 pm

CowboyTutt wrote:I believe Mic's 510 Kodiak Express is just a 50-110 case loaded to higher pressure that modern 1886 rifles and Marlin's that Mic converts can handle. He puts a very slight shoulder on the case so it can't be loaded into an antique 50-110 rifle for safety purposes. Furthermore, while Mic started making these on Marlins which is a very expensive project and requires extensive modification, he has done more than one now on modern 1886 rifles and they require a lot less work. If it were me, I'd go with the Kodiak Express.

-Tutt

The 50 KE is a little shorter than the 50/110 and as you say it was originally designed to work in a heavily modified Marlin. Capacity wise, using cases made from spun 348 brass (thinner sidewalls), it has close to the same capacity of stock 50/110 cases. To my mind thats a lot of effort to end up with the same capacity as a 50/110. Starline and Bertram 50/110 brass are both very strong.

Personally I think if you are planning to use a Marlin I'd go for a 50 AK, however if you are using a modern 86/71 platform I'd go with a 50/110. Both will provide plenty of power and in a light rifle recoil will be memorable with full power loads. 50/110 has approx 20% greater powder capacity you can either go for higher output loads or produce the same power at lower pressures. As a point of reference, in a late model Miroku made 71/86, 5000 ft lbs is easily achieveable for a 50/110 but whether you need this sort of power is another matter.

When contemplating any conversion pay close attention to OAL quoted and means for magazine retention as both of these points can be limiting factors. Ask for detail of how the smith intends to handle these aspects. DRC conversions based on 86/71's feature a new magazine with a bulge opposite the loading gate - the same as Marlin did when they converted the 336 to cycle the 45/70. This gives a bit more flexibilty on OAL for feeding and cycling.

If you do a search on this site you should find several threads on this subject.

Joe

CowboyTutt · Post by **CowboyTutt** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:50 pm

Personally I think if you are planning to use a Marlin I'd go for a 50 AK, however if you are using a modern 86/71 platform I'd go with a 50/110.

JFE, thanks for clarifying about the 510 KE. I had forgotten it is shorter and your correct. I also would agree that as long as you handload and can be sure your "hot-rodded" 50-110 loads don't end up in the wrong hands and rifle, why go for the 510 KE?

I think your recommendation is the best one.

-Tutt

Mike D. · Post by **Mike D.** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 9:18 pm

I have been searching long and hard for an original 1886 Winchester Extra Lightweight rifle in .50-110 EX. There is one available, however, I don't have the $25K asking price laying around the house. It is a 1919 made gun and is in excellent condition.

Mike Rintoul · Post by **Mike Rintoul** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 9:46 pm

I have a Wild West Guns Marlin in 50AK and I'm having a modern '71 converted to 50-110. Ballistically, I can load them so close that no human nor animal could tell the difference except on paper.

NFG · Post by **NFG** » Wed May 25, 2011 10:42 pm

I need some help here also...I have a Marlin 336 switch barrel, 356 W, 444, 45-70(just got the barrel) and I want to do a 50 cal barrel...

I can do all the work so I have many ways of doing the conversion and I have an email out to Mic to do his 2.73" Long action work.

I was going to have the 45-70 barrel rebored to 50 AK but decided against that as I can buy a 0.510" barrel and rechamber it myself cheaper...I will probably rechamber the 45-70 to 45-90 or 458 WM to get the max COL of 2.70" plus...I have already done some work and can handle 444 M at 2.65" without a hitch, but the additional 0.08" would certainly help.

So my real questions are as far as COL's are concerned...has anyone had Mic's long action done and if so WHAT length did you load to and what velocity did you achieve??

And has anyone actually done a 50-110 or 50 AK on a Marlin action and loaded it to the longer 2.70" plus length and what was the results??

My intent is to use the 535 gr Cast performance bullet with the case trimmed to 2.30" to achieve 2.70" COL and crimp in the OEM cannelure, and use a 24-26" bbl. I shoot that same bullet in my 510 Makatak but at considerably higher velos...2200 to 2400 fs...yes it does hammer me on the bench even with a 12# rifle...AND muzzle brake.

Any comments, glaring faux pas, load data, head shaking, etc, please rattle my cage. I"ve been thinking on this for a couple of years while doing the other projects, and my new-to-me 450 BLR really got me to thinking again.

When you consider there is only about 10% difference between the 50 AK and the 50-110 at the 2.70 plus length, I'm not sure the added ~50fs is worth the additional cost of dies and brass...

Thanks.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Wed May 25, 2011 10:55 pm

thought the 50-110 was called an 'express' cartridge and ran a lighter bullet faster for flatter flight characteristics than the buffalo guns. not so? I thought the barrel had a slow twist rate to stabilize 350g or something like that. is that correct? or did I make it up.... from seperate gray cells?

I think the 50 AK is set up with faster barrels to handle heavier bullets.

and c.... are the two bullets the same diameter?

interesting project for sure

Grizz

NFG · Post by **NFG** » Thu May 26, 2011 12:55 am

You're right for the original 50-110/50AK leverguns.

For all intents and purposes modern wise, the 50 AK is a short 5-110 even though there are some slight differences in case size at the base...50 AK is 0.548"-0.553" base OD depending on who/whete you get your specs and 50-110 is 0.0551 -0.553" OD...the 348 case is 0.553"...but basically it is the OD of the reamer I rent if I do the project...I will use a 50-110 reamer to get the chamber length and probably 50 AK dies because they are cheaper and available, to get the COL length I want...similar to what I do with my 45-70 dies to reload all the different cases up to 45-120...just have to adjust the dies for the case length or use spacers for anything over 2.4" long.

As far as twist rate goes that depends on what the barrel maker has available...I was just looking at McGowen barrels and he has 0.500, 0.505 and 0.510" ID in several twists...my 510 Makatak McGowen barrel is 1-15 so I can shoot the long 600-750 gr bullets single shot and also the shorter ones through the magazine...I would probably go with a 1-20 or 1-24 for this project as that twist will stabilize all the bullet weight I'm going to use and those are the slowest twist available. Those twists will handle in the 1.5" length range at less than 2000fs...something in the 650-750 gr lead bullet range...ouch.

I'm thinking straight taper 0.935" to 0.735" at 24" leaving ~0.1125" walls plust a 2" muzzle brake...I a wuss in my old age. Matches my 444 M barrel pretty close. Maybe 0.835" at the muzzle for a little more weight to help soak up the slap.

As this is a "new" shooter with a new barrel, it's up to me to pick and choose...it doesn't matter what it was in the old days...the bullets could be from 0.510" to 0.513" depending on what is available and which barrel ID I end up using. Jacketed are 0.510" but 0.512" sized shoot better in my 510 Makatak.

Now if I had a "real" 50-110 of the older persuasion I would have to be more careful as to what and how I did things. I saw some of the oldie but goodies at the gun show last weekend and I would have to sell blood and a few organs...to afford one of those beauties.

No matter what happens, this will take some time...I have two other barrels arriving in a couple weeks, two stocks to finish, all the pieces and parts to convert the 444M to 45-70 to order and install, accuracy testing in the 450M, 5 barrels and two receivers to spray coat, inbetween all the reloading and varminting about to happen...

...don't know how far off my next meal is...

Luck

M. M. Wright · Post by **M. M. Wright** » Thu May 26, 2011 6:45 am

I had a 71 Browning that was re-barreled to 50-110 EX with an original Winchester barrel. The twist was very slow and even with light bullets would never give me the kind of groups that I wanted so I traded it off.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Thu May 26, 2011 9:24 am

The Winchester catalogue of 1896 gives the ballistics of the 50-110 as a 300 grain lead bullet at 1,536 fps.

A later table gives the ballistics of the 50-110 as a 300 grain jacketed bullet at 1,605 fps. Both of these were factory loadings.

Post by **Hobie** » Thu May 26, 2011 9:37 am

Way to resurrect an old topic!

It seems to me that the .50 AK was designed for smokeless and the .50-110 for BP. To decide which cartridge, it seems to me that you need to figure out which propellant you're going to use. The original poster didn't mention which action he was going to use but I presume that it was the 1886 or 71. Certainly, the choice wouldn't be an issue if he was using the Marlin, one would have to use the .50 AK due to COL compatibility with the action. I'm not certain of the availability of the .50-110 brass but the .50 AK brass from Starline is fantastic stuff and available. (I use it to form .45-75.)

JFE · Post by **JFE** » Thu May 26, 2011 11:41 am

NFG - you might want to investigate what gunsmiths do regarding barrel threads for converting Marlins to 50Ak. As you are probably aware most 336 barrels use square threads and the high pressure versions (450 Marlin, 338 Marlin etc) use V-threads (the receivers are obviously threaded differently too). This is to ensure there is additional meat in the barrel thread area when using large diameter cases at (relatively) high pressure. The critical point is the amount of metal remaining in the receiver between the barrel and loading tube. If you go to Mic Mc Pherson's website he discusses this in one of his articles and provides measurements.

<http://www.levergun.com/Marlin/index.html>

NFG · Post by **NFG** » Thu May 26, 2011 1:49 pm

Thanks JFE...I'm WAY to cheap to "send out" for the most part, and I understand about the Marlin square threads. I can do what Mic does by chucking the receiver up in my lathe, and I can also fit the threads of the new barrel to the actual receiver threads and gain a little bit. The real thing is understanding because of "what's left over" 35KCUP is max pressure for the 348 case, but still safe...the "V" threaded Marlin would be my first choice(in a Marlin) and the WSM/RUM case makes an excellent 45 cal at Marlin pressure limits, but to get to 50 cal, you need a rimmed or belted case and there aren't any belted cases that could safely be used in the Marlin for a 50 cal...at least I haven't found one that is readily available.

Brass and dies are available at Buffalo Arms and about the same price. First thing I checked...

WELLLLL...heres the way it goes...The "Old Marlin Curse"...short case and low pressure.

After crunching numbers half the night then finally waking up to the most important thing when it comes to ALL changes...THE NET CAPACITY...the hole that is actually is left under the bullet for powder when all the messing about is done.

Here's the numbers...using a 535gr Cast performance bullet and a 2.70" COL, 50 AK 2.1" case and 50-110 2.3" case...by the way I came across some references to a 50 AK "Long"...2.3" case and 2.70" COL...so someone has been down this discovery road already.

The NET CAPACITY for BOTH cases was ~72gr H20 plus or minus about one grain even though the actual case volumes were different with the -110 being about 10% higher... which for some reason blew right by me when I started the number crunching and NET CAPACITY is usually the FIRST thing I look..to stop all the time wasted on all the other efforet...I can get REAL dumb sometimes and more often than not at this late stage.

So...as far as the Marlin rifle is concerned it doesn't matter which case I use, the results will be the same using the 2.70" COL...I would gain about 12.5% in case capacity over the "normal" 5- AK COL of 2.52" though, or about 3.12% more velocity - ~60fs, or less pressure - ~1100 psi with the longer 2.70" COL...THERE'S where the value is...whether those differences are worth the cost is another matter only YOU/ME can decide.

The only way I could get a REAL increase in velocity would be to use a rifle that could handle the full length cartridge at ~3.1" COL...AND/OR higher pressures...the NET difference between the 2.70" COL and the 3.10" COL is ~22.5%...or ~32% at 2.52"...NOW WE'RE TALKING MAJOR WHACK-DOODLE...and at the same ~35KCUP pressures.

If I could find a way to get the barrels off a steel framed long action BLR, I bet I could find a way to come up with a 50 cal "Something similar to a 50-110" to work in it...3.50" COL AND 65KPSI/52KCUP...what a beast...at BOTH ends. I'm getting all sweaty just thinking about it.

By going to a longer barrel 24" vs 18", I can probably gain a total velocity increase of 100-125 fs also...with a 535 gr bullet that additional 100 fs equals ~300 ft lbs energy at 100yds.
Why build Thors Hammer to whack 6p nails...I think big bores need big bullets, if not, what's the point.

In any event the actual energy for the 50 AK at 2.52" COL with a 535 gr bullet isn't much more than my 450 M loaded with a 350 gr bullet at ~2300fs...which produces ~4100 ft lbs energy at the muzzle and ~2800 ft lbs at 100 yds...and a LOT LESS RECOIL....

Remember...a lot of the jumping up and down over "how big and how bad" boils down to comparing apples to apples and leaving the cumquats to the city folks...

I'm not really disappointed at the actual number results, and I will still do a "50 AK Long" so I can seat out to whatever the max length Mic comes up with and use a 50-110 reamer to cut the chamber...I will be among the very few that have a "50 AK-Long"...that is unless I hit the LOTTO...then look out. Hahahahahahah

Enjoy

buckeyeshooter · Post by **buckeyeshooter** » Fri May 27, 2011 7:45 am

I went with a 26 inch barrel for maximum velocity and maximum gun weight to reduce recoil.

NFG · Post by **NFG** » Fri May 27, 2011 12:00 pm

After a few email exchanges with Mic...and finding out the amount of metal work required because of the differences in the 336 vs 1895 receivers to even get a 450-70 to work, plus it being questionable about getting a 50 cal bullet to cycle into the chamber at the COL I want, AND being on the ragged edge as far as the pressure goes even buying the special receiver reamer and a higher strength barrel, the better part of valor is to forget about doing the 50 AK on the 336 platform at this time...for one thing I don't want to ruin the receiver for my main objective of a swap barrel Marlin. When I hit the LOTTO I will have someone do a 50 cal for me.

It was an idea that required exploration to prove true or false.

I will continue working on the 45-70 barrel and do whatever work is required to get that one up and running but NOT with the 45-70 case...Probably rechamber to a 458 x 2.3" if I can get the larger dia cartridge to work at 2.65" - 2.72" COL. The belted mag case will work with the 444 M pieces and parts. I already have a 450 M BLR and a 458 x 2.3 I built on a SMLE receiver...I don't want to do another 450 M and mix up the rounds...the BLR can handle much higher pressures and I load the rounds to the higher level.

I HAS been an excellent "thought" experiment tho' and I have learned much more than I lost, so to speak.

Mic is a total joy to talk to...he's done all the good stuff concerning "gunsmithing" AND ballistics. Many of the things I have done over the years concerning testing the various aspects have always had more questions I didn't have the equipment to answer or not quite enough data, he has done at a ballistics lab so has almost the complete answer. Experience is always the best teacher but absent the experience, a knowledgeable person to talk to is the next best thing.

Luck

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Fri May 27, 2011 8:36 pm

Just was looking into an Encore barrrel in .338 Whisper, and the ballistic options favor the .50 caliber bullets, if you want to launch a subsonic freight-train in the 500-800 grain range.

Anyway, it looks like both the ".50 Whisper" and ".510 Whisper" cartridges have about the same case capacity as the .50 Alaskan, in a case a bit shorter than the .50-110, so if you had enough of a twist rate, you could have some really hellaceous "cat sneeze" loads...

NFG · Post by **NFG** » Sat May 28, 2011 1:03 pm

OH YEAH...the ballistics of those long pointy 50 cal bullets, especially the 750 Amax are amazing...AND there are plenty of cases to play with if you want to futz around...I "Launch" those in my 510 Makatak in the 1500-2000fs range and they are like the Energizer Bunny...they keep going and going and....when they finally hit you, definitely see the impact.

Can't afford the bullet OR the powder amount very often, and the recoil even with a muzzle brake and 12# rifle is substantial off the bench...offhand it is about like any other large cal rifle.

I have several NEF stub frames and have looked hard a doing a swap barrel in/on one of the "whisper" cases.

Shoot...SSK has a barrel all ready for his 510 Whisper on the Lapua case...I wouldn't look any farther if I could afford one...My Encore is just waiting for my ship to come in....

Nothing wrong with the 338 either, and no developmental stage, waiting for dies, brass, buying reamers and so forth. I guarantee the costs involved the R&D of wildcatting a cartridge are MUCH higher than just buying off the shelf, alreadybeendone goodies.

I think SSK also has a 50 AK barrel or will do one for you, so you could kill two birds with one shot so to speak..

Luck

plstktnkr2 · Post by **plstktnkr2** » Thu Aug 02, 2012 7:13 pm

SubDoc wrote:I am looking at getting a conversion done by DRC or Reg Nonneman and I am not sure which cartridge to go with. the 50-110 has history but the 50 Alaskan is more readily available.

I can't find(modern) 50-110 ballistics anywhere. Do any of you have a conversion? I seem to remember JT doing an article on the 50-110 in Guns a few years ago but I guess I did not archive that article.

I do not know about "modern" (READ:SMOKELESS) but WW Greener did those ballistics in his work "THE GUN AND IT'S DEVELOPMENT"
Rick

Mike D. · Post by **Mike D.** » Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:59 am

A Marlin "1895" IS a 336. Not suitable for very high pressure loads that an 1886 thrives on.

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