Frank Wesson Rifle

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Cimarron Red
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Frank Wesson Rifle

Post by Cimarron Red »

I've recently inherited my great grandfather's Frank Wesson tip up rifle. The gun has a 26 inch octagon barrel, and it's in reasonable condition given its age -- circa late 1870's. See pics. It's an interesting design with the forward trigger acting as the break lever. The rifle is chambered in .32 Long Centerfire (which brass has become collectible, hard to find and pricey) and the gun will fire .32 Long Rimfire ammo thanks to a sliding block on the face of the hammer and two firing pins mounted in the breach face. Usable cases can be made by sizing .32 Long Colt brass in the correct die (available from CH-4D) and then trimming slightly. Unfortunately, .32 Long Colt brass is also hard to find.

Navy Arms occasionally has a run of .32 Long Rimfire ammo made in Brazil, and I have a few boxes. But it's not especially accurate.

The bore is in fair condition except the area just ahead of the chamber which is in poor shape, mercuric priming having done its work over the years. So if I can't locate some reasonably priced .32 Long Colt brass, I may have the barrel re-lined and chambered in .32-20. Anybody have any .32 LC brass lying around?

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Re: Frank Wesson Rifle

Post by kimwcook »

Very nice. Wonder what your options are on the bbl.
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Re: Frank Wesson Rifle

Post by Chuck 100 yd »

Very nice!! Wesson also made some fine muzzle loaders.
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Re: Frank Wesson Rifle

Post by Cimarron Red »

Thanks kimwcook. If I decide on a re-line, I'll likely send the gun to Craig Rittenhouse, a friend of mine in Pennsylvania who's been doing this work for years. The job, including some extractor work, will cost $300.
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Re: Frank Wesson Rifle

Post by 2ndovc »

I know it's your gun but Please don't alter that rifle.

It's about as rare as it gets and even with a rough bore it's worth FAR more in original
condition than it would be if it was altered.

There's plenty of actions out there to work up a single shot .32-20
if so desired. Or sell it to a collector and use the $$ to fund a special single shot.


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Re: Frank Wesson Rifle

Post by Kansas Ed »

Are you talking the .32 S&W Long brass? If so Buffalo arms has it cheap.

If not, read this thread on making the .32LC brass from other things. They are indicating several solutions to your issue. And to agree with others....Please do not rechamber it. Please...

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/archive ... -9091.html

This guy makes .32 LC brass from .32 S&W http://www.uncle-jack.com/shooters.htm

No more than you will shoot that rifle, 40 pcs of brass will last you a lifetime at the pressures it was intended for.

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Re: Frank Wesson Rifle

Post by Cimarron Red »

2ndovc, Kansas Ed,

I appreciate your sentiments about altering the gun's original condition. However, my research shows that the rifle is not especially valuable. In its current condition I doubt it's worth more than $800. I am willing, however, to be contradicted on this point.

The brass I need is .32 Long Centerfire; .32 S & W Long is heavier in the body and the rim. .32 LC is slightly less heavy in these areas and can readily be sized in a .32 Long CF die. Then there is the problem of getting a mould for a heeled bullet. Getting the gun to shoot in it's current form will be a daunting task.
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Re: Frank Wesson Rifle

Post by jdad »

That's an early 2-trigger and I would be hesitant to alter it also. I bought a 22 caliber version.....extremely rare, in half the condition of yours and paid $800......several years ago.

The other thing to consider. I'm not sure that the "cast" action will handle a 32-20 unless you load it way down.
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Re: Frank Wesson Rifle

Post by Doc Hudson »

2ndovc wrote:I know it's your gun but Please don't alter that rifle.

It's about as rare as it gets and even with a rough bore it's worth FAR more in original
condition than it would be if it was altered.

There's plenty of actions out there to work up a single shot .32-20
if so desired. Or sell it to a collector and use the $$ to fund a special single shot.


jason 8)

+10 million!!!!

The monetary value means nothing. This rifle is a family heirloom. Don't fiddle around with it.

i remember the advise Mr. Bud Walters once gave me when I asked him to do some restoration work on Big Daddy's old Hopkins Allen shotgun. he said:
i could repair that crack in the stock, and refinish the barrel and receiver to make 'em look like the day it left the factory. But I won't do it. That's your grandpa's old shotgun and if I change it any, it won't be his any more.
So leave your great-grandpa's rifle like he left it to you, and pass it on to your grandson the same way.
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Re: Frank Wesson Rifle

Post by madman4570 »

A BIG ++1

That would be like tearing out the original engine of a 1956 T-Bird for a after market crate engine because the engine was rusty.PLEASE DONT DO IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: Frank Wesson Rifle

Post by Bis »

I have to agree with the others, just clean it and save it as is.
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Re: Frank Wesson Rifle

Post by Doc Hudson »

Bis wrote:I have to agree with the others, just clean it and save it as is.
Exactly what Mr. Bud told me to do with Big Daddy's old Hopkins Allen!!
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Re: Frank Wesson Rifle

Post by Ysabel Kid »

That is one very cool rifle!!! 8) I think I'd leave it as is after a good cleaning, and simply look for opportunities to acquire brass and ammunition as they come up in the future - then hoard.
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Re: Frank Wesson Rifle

Post by adirondakjack »

Dang, I dunno. If grand dad left the feller a model T with a shot motor, would we tell him to make it a barn queen or respect that it was meant to run and encourage making it run again?

You honor the riflemaker by USING his rifle, just like great grandpa did. he didn't worry about $$$, as he obviously never cashed it in....

But that's just me. I got no use for antiques that aren't in working order, guns or otherwise. Make em work, use em a bit now and again, and keep the spirit alive.....

Now, I wanna say, that is a fine lookin old rifle. yer folks took care of stuff. if ya do shoot it, use light loads, even with a new liner.
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Re: Frank Wesson Rifle

Post by Pete44ru »

There's no need to alter that beautiful rifle, since it can be shot regularly for relatively little expense.

As posted above, the .32 S&W has both a fatter case and a different taper than the .32 Colt - BUT - since the .32 Long Colt headspaces on it's rim, you can simply buy/shoot currently commercially available (Winchester) .32 SHORT Colt centerfire ammo ($30/box 50), or use the brass for reloading.

Winchester makes about 2-3 runs of that cartridge each year - I bought my last batch at the Kittery (Maine) Trading Post.

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Re: Frank Wesson Rifle

Post by Killer Kanuck »

32 Long Colt can be found around - be surprised what you find lying around at gunshows once you start looking. I've made a habit of picking up any 32 Long or Short Colt whenever I come across it. Now one of these days hopefully I'll come across the Marlin 1892 I'm planning on shooting it out of. :lol:
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Re: Frank Wesson Rifle

Post by awp101 »

I may have some Long Colt but I won't know until tomorrow. If I remember to look... :roll:
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Re: Frank Wesson Rifle

Post by Gaucho Gringo »

If your rifle is 32 S&W Long why don't you buy 32 H&R Magnum cases and cut them to the right length. All the 32 H&R are just longer version of a 32 S&W.
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Re: Frank Wesson Rifle

Post by Rimfire McNutjob »

Nice looking rifle. I've not seen one before. If I recall, the 32 S&W stuff is not the same size as the 32 Long / 32 Short RF and can't be used interchangeably. Though the 32 Colt stuff can be used. Anyone know for sure?
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Re: Frank Wesson Rifle

Post by Pete44ru »

Yes, I know for sure - as I went through extensive test fitting for cartridgers that would fit a #4 roller that was only marked ".32", but had breechblock holes for both rimfire AND centerfire firing pins - but only a CF firing pin.

Both the .32 S&W Short & Long cartridges would enter the chamber approximately 90% of seating fully, then stop due to the larger case length/taper.
Likewise the .32 H&R Mag, only it wouldn't even seat as deeply as the S&W cartridges.

The .32 Long Colt was just shy of letting the breechblock fully close - but (in my case) the .32 Short Colt fit/seated/fired perfectly, and w/o issues.

Cimmaron Red should be able to chamber & fire .32 Short Colt cartridges safely in his Wesson rifle - like shooting .22 Shorts in a .22 Long Rifle chamber.
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Re: Frank Wesson Rifle

Post by Rimfire McNutjob »

Pete44ru wrote:Yes, I know for sure - as I went through extensive test fitting for cartridgers that would fit a #4 roller that was only marked ".32", but had breechblock holes for both rimfire AND centerfire firing pins - but only a CF firing pin.
Great info. I've seen a few Marlin 1892's in 32 and was always worried about what I'd fire in them. They still make 32 Short Colt?
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Re: Frank Wesson Rifle

Post by KirkD »

If you do rechamber it, the 32-20 would be a good choice.
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Re: Frank Wesson Rifle

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adirondakjack wrote:Dang, I dunno. If grand dad left the feller a model T with a shot motor, would we tell him to make it a barn queen or respect that it was meant to run and encourage making it run again?

You honor the riflemaker by USING his rifle, just like great grandpa did. he didn't worry about $$$, as he obviously never cashed it in....
I gotta agree on that (plus I just love to dissent from the consensus now and again), although if the gun were extremely rare and valuable as some above suggested, then it does make fiscal sense to trade to a collector to get another less rare type to 'fix up'.

I've seen some very old machines, including guns, that were altered by the original owners 'back in the day', and those alterations sometimes form an integral part of the gun or machine's history, and its legacy, so the fact that we're living in the present doesn't mean that two or three generations from now someone might find it fascinating that great-grandpa re-lined the barrel for the then-popular, but now-obsolete, 6mm PPC.

Still, I agree with doing NOTHING to an old gun without careful thought beforehand; it's not like if you decide you didn't want to do it, you can just log onto Davidson's and order up another just like it.
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Re: Frank Wesson Rifle

Post by Pete44ru »

[They still make 32 Short Colt?]

As I posted above:

"Winchester makes about 2-3 runs of that cartridge each year - I bought my last batch at the Kittery (Maine) Trading Post."

.
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Re: Frank Wesson Rifle

Post by Rimfire McNutjob »

Pete44ru wrote:[They still make 32 Short Colt?]

As I posted above:

"Winchester makes about 2-3 runs of that cartridge each year - I bought my last batch at the Kittery (Maine) Trading Post."
Cool. I went to look for it and both Grafs and Natchez list it. It's out of stock, but then so is everything else that goes in a handgun. Apparently Winchester runs 32 Short Colt more often than the famously "seasonal" 348 WCF.
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Re: Frank Wesson Rifle

Post by adirondakjack »

AJMD429 wrote:
adirondakjack wrote:Dang, I dunno. If grand dad left the feller a model T with a shot motor, would we tell him to make it a barn queen or respect that it was meant to run and encourage making it run again?

You honor the riflemaker by USING his rifle, just like great grandpa did. he didn't worry about $$$, as he obviously never cashed it in....
I gotta agree on that (plus I just love to dissent from the consensus now and again), although if the gun were extremely rare and valuable as some above suggested, then it does make fiscal sense to trade to a collector to get another less rare type to 'fix up'.

I've seen some very old machines, including guns, that were altered by the original owners 'back in the day', and those alterations sometimes form an integral part of the gun or machine's history, and its legacy, so the fact that we're living in the present doesn't mean that two or three generations from now someone might find it fascinating that great-grandpa re-lined the barrel for the then-popular, but now-obsolete, 6mm PPC.

Still, I agree with doing NOTHING to an old gun without careful thought beforehand; it's not like if you decide you didn't want to do it, you can just log onto Davidson's and order up another just like it.
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Re: Frank Wesson Rifle

Post by Cimarron Red »

Thanks for all the replies, guys. I share Adirondakjack's philosophy on the matter. That said, I think that for now I'll take Pete44ru's advice and look for some .32 Short Colt ammo. Of course, if anyone has some surplus .32 LC ammo/brass, I'd be happy to snap it up.

I'll post a sequel to this saga when there's something to report.
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Re: Frank Wesson Rifle

Post by pwl44m »

I know this thread is almost 5 years old but I was doing an internet search on a rifle that I went to look at today and was directed to this thread.
cimmaron reds rifle looks a whole lot better than the one that I looked at. The name could barely be made out but I could make out Frank Wesson.
Now I am wondering what Red ended up doing with His ? His last post mentioned that He would update when He did anything. So what became of it Red ?
The Guy also had some other Guns which I'll post in another thread. He had some really weird stuff.
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Re: Frank Wesson Rifle

Post by pwl44m »

I know this thread is almost 5 years old but I was doing an internet search on a rifle that I went to look at today and was directed to this thread.
cimmaron reds rifle looks a whole lot better than the one that I looked at. The name could barely be made out but I could make out Frank Wesson.
Now I am wondering what Red ended up doing with His ? His last post mentioned that He would update when He did anything. So what became of it Red ?
The Guy also had some other Guns which I'll post in another thread. He had some really weird stuff.
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Re: Frank Wesson Rifle

Post by Sixgun »

Don't know what Reds did with it but I do know he had it in 2010 because I had my hands on it while paying him a visit. I was trying to rob him of his 1894 in 38-55 that has 9 special order items on it. Like I said, "tried". :D 6
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Re: Frank Wesson Rifle

Post by pwl44m »

I would have tried for the 94 also.
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Re: Frank Wesson Rifle

Post by OldWin »

I'd like to see some pics of the 94. :D

As far as the Frank Wesson (may be moot 5yrs later), here is my .02.

Where it was a "family" rifle, re-sale and value is probably less of an issue as you probably won't ever sell it. See how your heirs feel about first.

If was loose and clapped out (witch is obviously not the case), I'd hang it on the wall with some old pictures.

Where it looks good and serviceable and is missing no parts, I wouldn't hesitate to get it to a point where it is shootable and useful without fuss. If you're scrounging the country and overpaying for two boxes of brass you won't shoot it.

I'd re-bore or chamber before I altered it cosmetically.


Oh yeah, did I mention I'd like to see pics of the 94? :roll:
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Re: Frank Wesson Rifle

Post by wm »

Probably a bit more costly then rechamber and lining but could you have a new barrel made up? Enjoy shooting the 32-20 and keep the rifle as is......having your cake and eating it too
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Re: Frank Wesson Rifle

Post by Bill in Oregon »

Wow, I must have missed this the first time around. That is an astonishingly lovely Wesson. Red, are you still with us?
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Re: Frank Wesson Rifle

Post by Griff »

Saw some other names in this thread that haven't been around in a while... amp101, adirondackjack, kimcook & a couple of others... Doc H, Gaucho Gringo, etc...

As for Cimarron Red, I haven't seen his name listed for the past few months, in the winner's circle at the Golden Gun Club where I shot with him a year or so ago... Hope all is well...

But, for the record... I gotta say, it's his rifle and he can do with it as he pleases... and if re-lining in any way makes it a better gun... if it were mine... that's what I'd do...
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Re: Frank Wesson Rifle

Post by Cimarron Red »

Hi, Guys,

I just discovered that this thread has been resurrected! I bought some .32 Short Colt cartridges for the Frank Wesson, but accuracy is no more than a forlorn hope. I may gather the casting ad reloading necessaries, and try that route.

OldWin,

Here's a picture of the 1894 rifle that Sixgun has been trying to wangle from me for 15 years:

Image

The rifle was made in 1918, and you'll note that it anticipates the Model 55. It's an extra lightweight rifle in .38-55 (the muzzle diameter is 9/16", so the barrel walls at the muzzle are about .090" thick).

Barrel is part octagon, 24" long, rapid taper and made of nickel steel

Take-down frame

Half magazine

Marbles Flexible tang sight

Lyman No. 28 ramp front sight with an ivory bead

No rear barrel sight, but dovetail filled with an old blank

Whelen fluted comb, shotgun butt, hard rubber butt plate

Weight: 6 lbs, 12 oz.

I really should take some more pics of this rifle.

One of the other 94's I have is a 1927 standard rifle -- 26" octagon barrel and crescent butt stock. But the barrel is made of stainless steel, whereas most SS barrels were round. And the rifle has a close-coupled set trigger. I recently broke the hammer spring, and set trigger guns take a special spring -- it's offset to clear the fly on the set trigger. I was very fortunate to have finally located one!

Image

Image

Image

Hey, Griff,

I haven't made many of the Golden shoots this spring, and a number of others have been canceled due to weather. The rimfire match will be on June 28; I hope the weather is great. Come on up when you get a chance!

6,

I'm taking care of your rifle until you decide to buy it from me!
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Re: Frank Wesson Rifle

Post by OldWin »

Red,

Thank you very much for the pics. You have two very fine rifles for sure.
The 38-55 is beautiful. I find the rapid taper barrel rifles to balance extremely well. You get light feel of a carbine with the sight radius and accuracy of a rifle.

Like you stated, I don't recall ever seeing a stainless octagon barrel. That is really nice. I've seen several stainless barrels, but most were 92's, and in carbines.
A friend has a 92 eastern carbine in 38-40 with a stainless barrel. I narrowly missed it and he got it and.................. :roll:

Sorry, I'm starting to ramble.

Nice rifles Red. Thanks again.
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Re: Frank Wesson Rifle

Post by Cimarron Red »

OldWin,

You are surely welcome! And I enjoyed posting the pics again.

I agree about the balance of the extra lightweight rifles. When I first hefted that .38-55, I was amazed at how good it felt. But as I haven't hunted for quite a while, the gun's utility is not as important to me as it once was. Nonetheless, I'm glad I bought it -- at a small country auction in Pennsylvania for $624, as I recall!

Aside from my stainless octagon barreled 94, I'm aware of only one other, and that was for sale in Leroy Mertz' catalog circa 2000 or 2001 (I think.) His was a Winchester 1892 in fine condition, and he was offering it for $8000. But I think it unlikely he got that much. In his description he said that this was just the second Winchester lever gun he had seen with a full octagon stainless barrel. I'd really like to know how many were made so configured. Ah, the perfume and charm of Winchester rifles!
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Re: Frank Wesson Rifle

Post by pwl44m »

Just how much value does Double Triggers add to a Gun ? A store in town has a Win 94 in 30-30 with double triggers for $2200 and that includes the broken Upper Tang.
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Re: Frank Wesson Rifle

Post by Cimarron Red »

Hi, Perry,

I don't see them on Winchester lever guns enough to have a good idea as to price. That said, I would guess about $500 at least. In addition to the set trigger mechanism itself, including a separate sear and sear spring, you would need the correct lower tang, hammer and mainspring -- and perhaps other parts that I'm not familiar with. Other poster may have a better idea than I.
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Re: Frank Wesson Rifle

Post by OldWin »

Red,

That was a well spent 624 bucks!
I can only imagine how well that 38-55 handles. I have a solid frame 2/3 mag with a round tapered barrel and crescent butt in 32WS that has fantastic balance. Your 38-55 with the bigger bore must have a very light and nimble feel.
I have two half mag 38-55 SRC's that are the lightest 1894's I've ever carried. One is gumwood stocked and feels like a kids toy rifle.


Every year up here the state has public auction and auctions off the guns that the wardens confiscate from night hunters. A friend and I went one year to see what they had. There was mostly junk and beaters spread on the table. As I scanned I did a double take and noticed a 92SRC in 25-20. It was a little rough but I picked it up to look at it and was shocked to see it was a stainless barrel. :shock:
I bet someone paid big bucks to get "grandpa's" carbine back. :D
"Oh bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round.
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Cimarron Red
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Re: Frank Wesson Rifle

Post by Cimarron Red »

OldWin,

Though as I said I no longer hunt, I have done so with the .38-55 on quite a few occasions, and the rifle almost carries itself! I once had an 1894 SRC in .30-30; that one carried beautifully as well.

Yep, often those small, lightly advertised auctions serve up some sleepers like that .25-20 -- another Winchester gem hidden in plain sight.
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Re: Frank Wesson Rifle

Post by OldWin »

Red,

It's true. It does sometimes pay to look around. I took the Harley for a ride this morning on one of my favorite loops. Up through the mountains by Sugarloaf to Stratton and over to Rangeley. I saw a couple small shops I need to check out. I would have today but wanted to get home. I was freezing to death! :lol:

You never know what you'll find. Miracles do happen.......
"Oh bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round.
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Sixgun
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Re: Frank Wesson Rifle

Post by Sixgun »

THERES that 38-55!!!!!! I go upstate for a few days and this is what I come back to????? Now Old Win. Is trying to get that 38-55!!!!! :D

Hands off Old Win! :D

I've had my greedy hands on thousands of antique Winchesters and with the exception of guns with provenance, the nicest antique Winchester I have ever had the honor of handling is Red's special order 38-55. I have seen plenty of 30-30's with pencil barrels and ramp front sights, but never a 38-55.

Then good ole Reds comes up with a stainless octagon barreled Winchester!-----6
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.45colt
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Re: Frank Wesson Rifle

Post by .45colt »

Six, I've been here along time and never seen You in such a tizzy, easy Now one day at a time, it WILL Get Better.
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OldWin
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Re: Frank Wesson Rifle

Post by OldWin »

Now Six, easy there big fella.
I consider you a friend and I'd NEVER try to snake a good......awesome special order 38-55 out from under you......really.....I......I.....thought if maybe Red would even consider selling I'd get it and make it a gift to you.........yeah!
THATS what I was thinking. :D

You know.......in case you weren't home....... so you wouldn't miss out on it. :D


And you can ask Red, nothing was mentioned about a sale. Red.....Red.....help me out here...... :roll:
"Oh bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round.
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Cimarron Red
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Re: Frank Wesson Rifle

Post by Cimarron Red »

Now, Jack,

You know if I ever sold that gun, you'd get first crack at it! Unless, of course, you were upstate or something! And if I did sell it to someone else, it surely would not be to a stranger! Now, admittedly, OldWin has been working real hard to become more than a stranger! :D
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OldWin
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Re: Frank Wesson Rifle

Post by OldWin »

Is it that obvious Red? :D

No seriously though, if you do sell it, its Jack's.
And no, I wasn't just being friendly cause you got cool Winchesters. :D
I do, however, appreciate you showing me the pics. Thats some good stuff.
"Oh bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round.
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