.358 Win. vs .356 Win?

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fknipfer
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.358 Win. vs .356 Win?

#1 Post by fknipfer » Mon Jun 15, 2009 4:33 pm

i had an interesting thing happen today with my .356 Win Model 94AE. I had heard that some of the Win 94's .356 would fire and eject .358 Brass. The only difference I had seen was the case head on the .358Win is .473 vs .506 on the .356Win. or .033 larger on the .356.

I thought I would put an unloaded round .358 Win w/case & bullet and dead primer and crimped to 2.600 dim. i thought I can get it out with a cleaning rod. Well the .358 dead bullet in the .356 Winchester ejected better than the normal .356 round. Hmmmmmm?

Has anyone here ever fired a .358 Winchester round in a .356 Winchester. The body lengths are identical. like I said case head is different dimension. I am not one to reinvent the wheel if someone else has already rounded one out. I can'f fire .356 in .358 unless I made the case head smaller on the .356 Win. round. Anyone have any advise please holler.

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Re: .358 Win. vs .356 Win?

#2 Post by Goat » Mon Jun 15, 2009 4:48 pm

While the 358 will chamber in the 356 you should never fire factory loaded 358 ammo in the 356 as it is loaded to higher pressures than the 356. You can download the 358 to 356 pressure levels and I guess it has been done but since I have a 358 I would not want to get the loads confused and get the higher pressure rounds in the wrong gun. Good luck and expect more replies.
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Re: .358 Win. vs .356 Win?

#3 Post by fknipfer » Mon Jun 15, 2009 4:54 pm

Goat,
Thank you for the reply, another question I have is since both rounds are rated for 52,000 CUP that means (to me) they are the same aren't they? Same size both have the same CUP pressure and to what I have been reading the Win 94 AE is the strongest of the lever rifles in that area. Really confusing isn't it. No matter what the factory won't go over 52,000 Cup and the Winnie is rated for that. Hmmmmmmm maybe I need to go take a nap.

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Re: .358 Win. vs .356 Win?

#4 Post by C. Cash » Mon Jun 15, 2009 5:22 pm

I'm with Goat....I would never fire 358 Win. factory rounds in the 356 Win. Your at the very top end if your loads are approaching 50-51K+ CUP and as all guns are individuals I think you are in a dangerous grey area. The 356 Win. and 358 Win., though visually the same on the outside(except the 30/30 Rim on the 356), on the inside the 356 Win. has less case volume and you cannot interchange load data.

In the real world, you not going to lose much at all in the 356 Win. package...your within something like 80 fps, which I doubt a deer would be able to pick up on before it died. It is a classy rifle and an outstanding cartridge IMHO.
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Re: .358 Win. vs .356 Win?

#5 Post by C. Cash » Mon Jun 15, 2009 5:24 pm

Another thought...even if 356 Win. brass goes away, it can still be easily formed by the Redding form and trim die from 444 Marlin brass.
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Re: .358 Win. vs .356 Win?

#6 Post by O.S.O.K. » Mon Jun 15, 2009 5:58 pm

They are not the same round. The .356 has thicker brass and you already noted the difference in head diameter.

There really is no benefit to using .358 Win brass in the .356 Win IMHO.

What's the point?
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Re: .358 Win. vs .356 Win?

#7 Post by Tycer » Mon Jun 15, 2009 7:07 pm

Yep, I did. Worked fine in C. Cash's gun. :shock:

Only fired a few handloads to see how they functioned. The BB will handle the 52k.
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Re: .358 Win. vs .356 Win?

#8 Post by fknipfer » Mon Jun 15, 2009 7:39 pm

The question is" What is the point"
The point is we have two leverguns that are the same except for the rheteroic one was made for tube magazines and one was made for drop out magazines. You load the tube with flat nose bullets so they don't blow up in the tubes, flat now against primer. Now we make the brass thicker for the tube magazine than we do for the drop out magazine. Now we heat treat both rifles to handle 52,000 cup and then say the thinner brass one is the strongest, now does that make sense.
Both rounds are rated for 57grs of cartridge capacity. Now we say the rounds are the same length, same capacity, and now to throw another monkey into the mix is the chambers of both rifles measure the same, the exact same not one iota of difference . That's from my SAAMI manual dated approved March 16, 1992, I just recieved the book from them (SAAMI) last month.
Why don't we just say the rounds are identical twins except for the larger rim diameter for the .356 and go from there. You say the COL is larger for the .358 than the .356 but the reason is the magazine nothing else. You can fire the longer round thru the .356 because the chamber is the same as the .358 and the 52,000 CUP is the same. I will give up for tonight.

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Re: .358 Win. vs .356 Win?

#9 Post by BAGTIC » Mon Jun 15, 2009 7:47 pm

The .356 and .356 cases are the same except for the small 'semi-rim' on the .356 case. Both have the same pressure limits. If the .356 caliber guns were not safe with the .356 pressure limits then Winchester would have set the limits lower. They are the ones who created both the cartridge and the rifles.

Within brand there are no differences in case capacity or thickness. I have several guns in both calibers and they have the same capacities.

The real difference is that because the COL of the .356 is 0.20 inches shorter one can not use the same loads for both because the bullets must be seated deeper to fit in most .356 actions.

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Re: .358 Win. vs .356 Win?

#10 Post by C. Cash » Mon Jun 15, 2009 7:51 pm

No doubt 358 Win. cases are used, but with available components I have to wonder why. And as OSOK notes, for what would one really be gaining in power? The difference between a 220 speer going 2400 fps vs. 2480 is really not that great. Some of that difference is probably accounted for by the 20" tube of the 94 vs. the longer BLR. It's negligable. Slim Iorg ran into pressure signs at just over 50K Cup with the standard 94 in the 30/30 AI. I am not convinced that the Big Bore version is that much stronger, if it's stronger at all. Buck Elliot found at least one of them to be weaker in comparison to the other Mod. 94 recievers he was testing. I dunno.....I think 52K CUP is where something might happen if you did something wrong. No room for error if you had some brain flatulence. Not many loads listed for the 358 Win. go to 52K CUP but some do, and there is very little pressure data published for the 356 Win. and what they stand up to over time. Paco's gun extracted the 358 Win. cases fine, but others report problems with extraction.

All water capacity testing I've seen, including Slim Iorg's measurements, show the 356 Win. having less case capacity. He posted this on Beartooth:

"the .356 W-W Super held 54.2 grains of water, the R-P formed .444 case held 55.0 grains of water and the Winchester W-W Super .358 case held 56.2 grains of water". He did say it was hard to tell much difference upon dissecting the cartridges.

The Speer manual #12 says the 356 Win. has thicker walls and one is not to interchange loads with the 358 Win.
Last edited by C. Cash on Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: .358 Win. vs .356 Win?

#11 Post by O.S.O.K. » Mon Jun 15, 2009 7:56 pm

The point I'm making is they are not interchangeable - you should not use .358 Win loads in the .356 Win.

Regardless of your intent, you are making it sound like they use the same loads.

And I say, again, they do not. Further, I say that .358 Brass should not be used in the .356 Win chamber either due to the difference in head diameter.

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Re: .358 Win. vs .356 Win?

#12 Post by C. Cash » Mon Jun 15, 2009 8:00 pm

Tycer wrote:Yep, I did. Worked fine in C. Cash's gun. :shock:

Only fired a few handloads to see how they functioned. The BB will handle the 52k.
Well you were a busy bee weren't you??? :lol:
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Re: .358 Win. vs .356 Win?

#13 Post by fknipfer » Tue Jun 16, 2009 7:23 am

Here is some interesting data from the
Hodgdon Manual dated 1992 Manual 26.

Page 425, .356 Winchester 20" Barrel, COL doesn't say but has to be between 2.530 2.560 fps as shown in picture
48grs Bl-C(2) 2163 fps. doesn't say CUP.

Page 429, .358 Winchester 26", Barrel COL doesn't say but has to be between 2.730-2.780 fps as shown in picture
48grs Bl-C(2) 2374 fps 52,200 Cup.

Now the .358 is a 26" barrel and the .356 a 20" barrel. There has to be somewhere between 90 to 120 fps loss due to 26" vs 20" barrel.

So here goes 2374-120 = 2254 fps. The .358 is getting 91 fps over the .356 due different pressure.
Why isn't the .356 getting higher velocity due to a smaller case but the same loaded amounts of powder has to be higher pressure. A lot of loads in this particular book show you take away the 6" of barrel length and you have the same round.
This is how we all seem to get into trouble sooner or later.

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Re: .358 Win. vs .356 Win?

#14 Post by uncowboy » Tue Jun 16, 2009 8:37 am

My +2 . I have been looking at this a while I am thinking of reaming a 35Rem To 358. This was done a lot in the 80's and I have a few thoughts on it.
FIRST the advantage is not in getting an extra 80FPS the advantage is CHEAP BRASS! The 358 is made from 308Nato rounds with one pass through the FL sizeing die.
Useing Nato brass you will not have any caliber markings to confuse anyone into putting it in the wrong gun. Nato brass is thicker and holds less water than standard 358 Brass so you will end up with the desired Case volume of the 356 Win.
Now you are going to use a tublar magazine so you will be useing bullets that make a Case OAL that will function, This is where the 356 and 358 differ, You will loose case volume seating your bullets to get them to feed.
Now we are at apples and apples. In the 336 Marlin I would be shooting cast bullets at 1650FPS to 2000FPS Max This is a mild load well below pressure levels. A hand loaders dream- this could keep you bussey with powders and bullet combinations for 2 years. Thats my imput thanks for listening! J.Michael

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Re: .358 Win. vs .356 Win?

#15 Post by O.S.O.K. » Tue Jun 16, 2009 9:15 am

If one were bound and determined to use .358 Win brass, then what uncowboy just detailed would make the most sense to me. Chamber the rifle for 358 Win to start with and then you have a match - cartridge that fits and headspaces properly in the chamber.

I'm not saying that you can't use .358 Win in a .356 Win chamber but I am saying its not a good idea and pushes the safety margins. That's all I'm saying - and its just not worth it to me. I like having eyesight in both eyes for example...

The .356 Chamber is cut for a rimmed cartridge and when you close the bolt on the .358 Win round, there's a gap all the way around the base that isn't "sealed" like it would be with a .356 Win round. A case rupture would be nasty and spew hot gas and brass projectiles back towards the shooter's face. That's what I'm referring to.

Cutting a .358 Win chamber at least negates this situation along with minimizing the chances of the case rupture by having the chamber fit the cartridge head correclty.
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Re: .358 Win. vs .356 Win?

#16 Post by C. Cash » Tue Jun 16, 2009 2:58 pm

It is all very interesting to think about. Some of the gun people that I respect most highly see no problem with using factory 358 Win. ammo and brass in a 356 Win. I might be all wrong on my assumptions, but I'll be hesistant as long as I can procure 356 Win. or 444 Marlin brass. I have a good stock of the former. With one eye lost in an accident, it pays for me to be cautious. Good luck on finding the right combo of components and perhaps getting some more of these questions answered.
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Re: .358 Win. vs .356 Win?

#17 Post by william iorg » Tue Jun 16, 2009 8:18 pm

Chris,

While I have shot a few 358’s in the 356 Rifle I also don’t recommend it on a regular basis. Today’s 358 Winchester appears to have been loaded down a bit. The last Winchester factory 358 I fired in the 20” Winchester was a 200-grain Silver Tip – admittedly not exactly a “fresh” load. These averaged 2,261 fps. The last 200-grain 356 Winchester I fired chronographed 2,325 fps from the 20” barrel.

I recently shot the 220 Speer bullet ahead of 39.0 grains of Hodgdon 4198 in 356 Wincheter brass and 50.0 grains of Varget in 358 Winchester brass and both loads averaged right at 2, 365 fps. I have shot these loads many times and they both seem to average about the same velocity each time from the 20” barreled Winchester.

From our 22” Model 99 Savage the 225-grain Sierra at 2,300 fps is a very good load/

From the 20” Winchester either the Sierra 200-grain round nose or the Remington bulk round nose ahead of either 44.0 grains of Alliant Reloder 10 or 49.0 grains of Winchester 748 will give me 2,485 fps and the 200-grain bullet kill out 140 pound very decisively.

In my experience both rounds kill our deer quicker with the 200- grain round nose bullets at between 2,250 and 2,350 fps.

Did I ever send you the pictures of the open actions? I took some pictures of the Winchester Model 94, Win 1886, Savage Model 99 and the Marlin 336 with the actions open. Most of these cartridges are so close together in performance you really need to make a decision based on which rifle you like best. It is getting hard for the handloader to make a decision because he is able to choose between the 30-30AI, 307 Winchester, 308 Marlin Express, 300 Savage, 356 Win, 358 Win, 338 Marlin, 375 Winchester and 444 Marlin.
If you only shoot factory ammunition you could still be pretty happy with any of the cartridges.
Slim

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Re: .358 Win. vs .356 Win?

#18 Post by C. Cash » Tue Jun 16, 2009 9:59 pm

Thanks for your info Slim and good to see your post! Interesting results with those loads. No I've not seen the action pics....please send em to me if you get time.
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Re: .358 Win. vs .356 Win?

#19 Post by fknipfer » Wed Jun 17, 2009 4:45 pm

Well I solved my problem today, I took my .356 Winchester and re-chambered it to .358 Winchester. Now I can shoot .358 Winchester ammo in it.

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Re: .358 Win. vs .356 Win?

#20 Post by BenT » Wed Jun 17, 2009 5:23 pm

fknipfer wrote:Well I solved my problem today, I took my .356 Winchester and re-chambered it to .358 Winchester. Now I can shoot .358 Winchester ammo in it.

fknipfer
What did you do to rechamber ? My 356 reloading dies say 356/358 . The only difference is one headspaces on the shoulder and one on the rim. The chambers should be the same or am I missing something ?

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Re: .358 Win. vs .356 Win?

#21 Post by O.S.O.K. » Wed Jun 17, 2009 6:33 pm

I think that was a joke...
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Re: .358 Win. vs .356 Win?

#22 Post by fknipfer » Wed Jun 17, 2009 10:04 pm

Just a little attempt at levity, It might work the other way but surely not the way l proposed.
I think I will just bow out of this discussion as its gone to far anyway. Have a good evening gents and a great tomorrow.


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Re: .358 Win. vs .356 Win?

#23 Post by BenT » Thu Jun 18, 2009 8:03 am

I thought it was humor. when you are a little slower than most , like me, I need the help of smilie face sometimes . :)

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