Now THIS Is An Interesting Levergun

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Cosmoline
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Now THIS Is An Interesting Levergun

Post by Cosmoline »

I've been trying hold back on buying firearms lately, but a local collector has been clearing out some of his items and I had to have this one:

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It's a pre-USRAC Big Bore with a heavy aftermarket barrel originally in 458x2. It has since been rechambered for .450 Marlin. John Traister apparently made it and did an article about it in Rifle. I found an article I believe to be about this exact rifle in the Nov. 86 issue of Rifle.

To make it even more interesting, the barrel crown was recessed and a shotshell choke added! Now all I need to do is work up some .450 shotshells with some No. 6 and those grouse and bunnies that always taunt me on the hike back from failed big game hunts are IN THE BAG. I've long wanted a general meat bag rifle for this state. Alaska has lots of overlapping seasons plus large pleistocene mammals that are awake and around even if you're after small game.

I'll report back on how it does. The first concern is magazine slippage, given the enormity of the round involved. However it looks like this may have already been addressed with a set screw on the custom forestock band. The barrel is stouter than anything that ever came from New Haven. I am somewhat concerned about the bolt face and receiver, but since this is a Big Bore it's been amped up. Nevertheless I'll watch for any pressure sign.
RKrodle
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Re: Now THIS Is An Interesting Levergun

Post by RKrodle »

From Bunnies to Bears :D . Very interesting and congratulation on a very unique rifle.
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Re: Now THIS Is An Interesting Levergun

Post by Sixgun »

Very interesting! .458 X 2? Must have had quite bit of action work and some serious money invested. Neato also on the choke tube :D ---------Sixgun
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Cosmoline
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Re: Now THIS Is An Interesting Levergun

Post by Cosmoline »

If I can find the right loads for it I'll be sorely tempted to take it out for a walk and see what I can collect with it.
Bear 45/70

Re: Now THIS Is An Interesting Levergun

Post by Bear 45/70 »

Sixgun wrote:Very interesting! .458 X 2? Must have had quite bit of action work and some serious money invested. Neato also on the choke tube :D ---------Sixgun


458X2 American is pretty much just a 45/70 by another name.
hemiallen
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Re: Now THIS Is An Interesting Levergun

Post by hemiallen »

That choke tube is for the Thompson center shot capsules for a 44 magnum, isn't it?

I saw the gun for sale a few weeks or so ago and asked the seller if he had any capsules to go with the gun.....

Interesting gun history, but odd combo imho. I have a contender 44 mag barrel, same tube.

Nice buy
Allen
Cosmoline
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Re: Now THIS Is An Interesting Levergun

Post by Cosmoline »

Very odd combo, but that's what interested me. The only test that matters is simple--will it work? Getting a decent pattern of shot with sufficient force to kill small game out of a RIFLE, even at 25 yards, is going to be tough. In past efforts I've ended up with a scattered "O" pattern at best--with a hole right where I need shot.

I'm going to skip the capsules and simply pack the shot with old time wadding. Then just fold the lips down around it a bit with a special die I worked up for the 7.62 Nagants.
tman
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Re: Now THIS Is An Interesting Levergun

Post by tman »

you may have the holy grail of model 94's :mrgreen: :mrgreen: 8)
dr walker
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Re: Now THIS Is An Interesting Levergun

Post by dr walker »

cool gun, I am interested in hearing how it pattterns.
uncowboy
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Re: Now THIS Is An Interesting Levergun

Post by uncowboy »

I cant see why you can't just shoot 410 Shot shells from it. They will chamber . Just might be a little long. Eather way Cutting down a 410 would be eassier than rounding over your brass. J.Michael
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Re: Now THIS Is An Interesting Levergun

Post by Pete44ru »

Don't be too concerned - remember, the 94 Timber (a BB94) was chambered for the .450 Marlin w/o issues.

.
C. Cash
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Re: Now THIS Is An Interesting Levergun

Post by C. Cash »

That is truly one of a kind....congrats Cosmoline. :mrgreen:
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rjohns94
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Re: Now THIS Is An Interesting Levergun

Post by rjohns94 »

that is very very kewl :mrgreen:
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Hillbilly
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Re: Now THIS Is An Interesting Levergun

Post by Hillbilly »

very neat... good luck
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Cosmoline
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Re: Now THIS Is An Interesting Levergun

Post by Cosmoline »

uncowboy wrote:I cant see why you can't just shoot 410 Shot shells from it. They will chamber . Just might be a little long. Eather way Cutting down a 410 would be eassier than rounding over your brass. J.Michael
That's an interesting idea. The rim diameters seem very similar, but isn't the .410 shell case considerably more narrow than the .450 chamber? I'm inclined to avoid it, but I do have some old .410's I will cannibalize for the shot cups.
BwanaDave
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Re: Now THIS Is An Interesting Levergun

Post by BwanaDave »

Doesn't the "Judge" shoot both 410 and 45/70?

I load 45 Colt with Speer shot capsules for my New Vaquero and they are great snake medicine. I wonder how the hard plastic capsule would handle a choked barrel. What choke is that anyway? If I owned it I would probably send the attachment off to Briley and get it machined for choke tubes. In regards to cutting down 410 hulls it is commonly done for various gauges to shoot older English shot guns with short chambers. Ballistic Products sells roll crimping tools. You might give MEC a call to see if a 600 jr can be adjusted down to 2" for a 410.

I would really like to learn more about that attachment. I have a 45-70 Marlin that might be fun to do that to. I am curious as to what the shot load would weigh. It is an interesting alternative to a drilling or combination gun. I am guessing the load would be small and its application would be limited to popping dove, quail and grouse as opposed to phez and large, tougher birds. I would think that you would also need to check you regs on mag capacity because you may need to plug it to be legal for hunting.

Dave
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Re: Now THIS Is An Interesting Levergun

Post by Lefty Dude »

Yep;

Thats a TC 44 shot shell cutter/chock.

I have one for my TC/357 Shot barrel. I also have two boxes of TC shot cartridges for .357.

They made them in internal & external chocks.
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Cosmoline
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Re: Now THIS Is An Interesting Levergun

Post by Cosmoline »

I did a little preemptive troubleshooting. The little thing (can't remember the name) that blocks the cartridges in the tube then lets one come back as you cycle it was still geared for .458x2. With .450 Marlins it was catching on the brass. I very,very carefully filed off little bit by little bit until cycling was smooth and functional.

I'm pretty sure this is the biggest round the 1894 frame can possibly take. It's maxed out in every direction. The right side cartridge guide can't be tightened in place all the way or the .450's won't squeeze through when loading. And topping off is nearly impossible. I know Winchester had a very short-lived factory version of the big bore Timber carbine in .450, but I expect they ran into all sorts of problems. Thankfully this one was done by hand. Hopefully it will all hold together with that terrific recoil.

The rifle itself is nearly perfectly balanced. The extra pounds in the barrel make it much easier to aim off hand than the typical 94. I like the heft and feel of the straight stock 94 much better than the beefy Marlins, so I"m really hoping this thing is fully functional.
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Re: Now THIS Is An Interesting Levergun

Post by Hobie »

BwanaDave wrote:Doesn't the "Judge" shoot both 410 and 45/70?
Dave
.45 Colt and .410 shotshell. There are both 2½ and 3 inch versions now.
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KCSO
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Re: Now THIS Is An Interesting Levergun

Post by KCSO »

Here,s how we did it in the old days....


Take you 45-70 case and load your powder charge. Seat a 45 gas check uuppside down on the powder and put in cushiion wads cut from an old felt hat with a wad punch. Put in 1/2 oz of shot. Seat a gas check on top and cripm the shell over the top of the gas check. This makes a super small game load and the gas check cripmed in it goood and tight. Can be loaded with your regular rifle dies.
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marlinman93
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Re: Now THIS Is An Interesting Levergun

Post by marlinman93 »

Does it have a thread protector to keep the threads clean when shooting bullets instead of shot?
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Cosmoline
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Re: Now THIS Is An Interesting Levergun

Post by Cosmoline »

No, but that's a fine idea.
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Re: Now THIS Is An Interesting Levergun

Post by Sixgun »

uncowboy wrote:I cant see why you can't just shoot 410 Shot shells from it. They will chamber . Just might be a little long. Eather way Cutting down a 410 would be eassier than rounding over your brass. J.Michael
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Re: Now THIS Is An Interesting Levergun

Post by AJMD429 »

KCSO wrote:Here,s how we did it in the old days....


Take you 45-70 case and load your powder charge. Seat a 45 gas check uuppside down on the powder and put in cushiion wads cut from an old felt hat with a wad punch. Put in 1/2 oz of shot. Seat a gas check on top and cripm the shell over the top of the gas check. This makes a super small game load and the gas check cripmed in it goood and tight. Can be loaded with your regular rifle dies.
Didn't the feller whose hat you used get mad...? :wink:

I want to try loading some SABOT rounds in the .45-70 or .500 S&W - I'll post a range report if I get to it...!
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Cosmoline
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Re: Now THIS Is An Interesting Levergun

Post by Cosmoline »

OK, I've worked out one possible method of shotshelling the .450. .410 shotshells are way undersized. While they might chamber and fire, the only thing that remotely fits the .450 chamber is the rim. Everything else would have to expand--including the brass base. I know from experience you can get a little expansion from a low-pressure rimmed cartridge and not have a kaboom. The .32 H&R mag in a 7.62 Nagant chamber for example. But this is pushing luck too far and I'm not going to try it.

Instead, I've taken the CUP from inside some .410 shotshells and set it atop a load of 15 grains 2400 in a primed empty .450 Marlin shell. That's a solid .410 load but extremely mild compared with .450 Marlin loads. I then put just under 1/2 oz of No. 5 shot into the cup, which fills it nicely. The overshot wad is nothing more than a cut card stuffed in the open end and glued in place. If it works the whole sheebang will be rammed through the choke in a tight wad. Time permitting I'm going to run down tomorrow and give it a try! Here's hoping NO DONUTS.

EDIT: The overshot card would not stay in place at all, so I used the tops of the .410 shotshells cut off and flipped over. They fit nice and snug. I attached them to the sidewalls of the shell with black epoxy, so IDEALLY what will happen is the petals will just open up and let the shot and cup pass through. We shall see :)

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Re: Now THIS Is An Interesting Levergun

Post by KirkD »

I'd probably forget to take that little choke tube out of the end before cranking one of those .458 slugs through it. :oops:
Looks like nice fine checkering on the furniture.
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Cosmoline
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Re: Now THIS Is An Interesting Levergun

Post by Cosmoline »

Yeah I'm not entirely sure what would happen if a .450 bullet went through the choke. It would probably just get swaged down by the lands, and the spin would be neutralized. The only way I'm going to find out is if some bruin interrupts a ptarmigan hunt.
Cosmoline
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Re: Now THIS Is An Interesting Levergun

Post by Cosmoline »

Well first range trip went well. The doctor says my right arm will be fully functional again in three weeks after a round of physical therapy :lol: As Traister wrote about this rifle: ".. recoil was violent. At each shot, my brain felt like it was bouncing around inside my skull. Five rounds of those heavy charges from a bench is all I care to fire at any given session." John Traister, "A Big Bore 94," reprinted in Wildcat Cartridges Vol. 2, p 560. I fired off 30 total, so I'm hurtin for certin. I actually made an "UGH" sound after each shot! Like some cartoon character.

I haven't worked up handloads for this one yet. Of the factory rounds the Horn. Custom 350 FP's were the standouts. I was not going for tight groups today, and had a black-on-black sight picture because I brought the wrong targets, but even so after dialing in I was getting 1 1/2" groups with those loads at fifty yards. The leverevolutions, which work so fantastic in my .30 WCF, were cruddy here and gave only a high, scattered group. Go figure. The buf. bore slugs worked well enough for bear at 25 yards, but I didn't try them at 50. I doubt they'd be tack drivers.

With that heavy Ackley custom barrel on it, the 94 peforms better than the reports I've heard from the factory Winchester Timber Carbines in .450 Marlin. The twist per the article is 1-in-20, so maybe that's why it's liking mid-weight rounds in the 350 grain range. Suits me fine. Anything in this state hit with that bullet from that shell is going to die very quickly. It generates 3400 ft. lbs at the muzzle and the reports on Midway USA are all five star. It's absolutely great bear or moose medicine.

The front sight is canted a notch to the right, which means the whole assembly shoots left badly. I have to adjust the rear sight way over to compensate, but in the end it still works fine. I may recut the front dovetail to square it up. I strongly suspect this happened during the process of switching it over from .458x2 to .450 Marlin.

The big worry is the mag tube, but Traister had done his work there. I packed it full and fired away, with no shifting of the tube. The front stock, however, DID shift forward about 1/8th of an inch. I'm happy as long as that mag tube stays put. Feeding was stiff but fine both going in and coming out. Ejection was without problems.

The shotshells worked fine, though instead of opening up my .410 tops were just blasted out the end. Oh well. I'll continue tweaking the design. As it is I got nice balls o' No. 5 at 20 yards--more than tight enough to bring down a lippy squirrel or stupid chicken. I have not yet tried Traister's interesting roundball loads.

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Cosmoline
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Re: Now THIS Is An Interesting Levergun

Post by Cosmoline »

More refinements. As noted earlier the front sight base is canted a notch right, which causes shots to veer left and forced me to adjust the rear sight way to the right to compensate. I had a few options to fix this. One was to drill and tap a new screw hole for the base, but after taking it off I saw that had already been done once before and I'd be Swiss cheesing it with another hole. So I did what my legal training taught me and split the baby. I sawed off the fixed crude bar that had been serving as a front sight and filed a dovetail to fit an old front triangle shaped sight that came from lord knows where. Probably some old military rifle. Ever since shooting Arisakas I've liked the mix of a rear aperture and a triangle front. With the front sight dovetailed I simply drifted it to the left and halved the amount of right drift in the rear sight. The cant is now much less distracting, and the sight picture much cleaner and quicker.

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With that in place, I fine tuned the sights. The Hornady Custom 350's are still spot on. This is the fifty yard group I got, even though I had a bit of ash in my contact and couldn't see well at all:

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Traister called it the most accurate lever action he'd ever owned, and with that performance I'm starting to believe him. It is a finicky rifle though. Accuracy of the Leverevolutions remains very poor and the B-Bores are indifferent.

Recoil is stout, but when I took a video to see it, it actually looks quite mild:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oJCsX1RCh0
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