winchester 94's the good the bad the ugly

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The Lewis
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winchester 94's the good the bad the ugly

Post by The Lewis »

Hey All, I would like to start looking for a '94 in 30-30. I know the pre '64 models are supposed to be better,but... I'd love to hear your opinions on the later versions; Why are they considered inferior? Any favorites or uglies?

Thanks for the thoughts, as always....
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Old Time Hunter
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Post by Old Time Hunter »

The most accurate '94 .30-30 I have is a 1980 top eject, no safety, XTR that I purchased for $90 from a Pawn shop in Vegas. I think I'll use it in the next Ranch Dog postal, it groups so consistantly it has to have something bent.
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Blaine
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Post by Blaine »

IMO, if you're looking for a shooter, don't overlook the beaters.....the ugly cuts the price a TON and it prolly shoots as good as it ever did...a little cleaning up and you're set for cheap.
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Post by LeverBob »

BlaineG wrote:IMO, if you're looking for a shooter, don't overlook the beaters.....the ugly cuts the price a TON and it prolly shoots as good as it ever did...a little cleaning up and you're set for cheap.
Way to go Blaine...better advice couldn't be found anywhere else.

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Griff
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Post by Griff »

Lewis,
I will only talk about "top-ejects" as I have no, nada, not one, AE models. I have about 20 pre-64s, they are all nice, well-used and at the time cheap. I have more in a NIB '63 receiver to build a new one out of, than any of the others, including several rifles with custom features. They were made of good quality forged steel. They are slick, well made and very representative of a time when quality and the product shipped out the door of the factory stood for the folks that made it. (Not unlike the differences between my new (2005) Chevy p/u and my '55-1/2 p/u.) I have 5 post '64 Winchester 94s (assembled, fire-able guns, 5 others are receivers for new projects). They are made, (except for two late commemorative receivers) of a scintered steel (think pressed steel). The two commemoratives are forged also. The internals are not as nicely finished as the earlier versions. However... and some will bite, the 3 late '70s versions with the coil mainspring are truly a joy to work. The action is smooth, with a consistent feel that simply isn't possible with a flat springs "wrap up."

But, again on the negative side, the wood is not as nice as the earlier versions, and the pre-52 types with their "long" forends, just have a look about them that seems more balanced. However, functionally, it does NOTHING!

I feel the mid to late '70s versions, with the cast lifter, coil mainspring exhibit every bit of nostalgia and reliability of the early guns. I don't care for the checkered-steel flat buttplate
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Much prefering either the hard-plastic late version,
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or the slightly curved steel of the pre-wars.
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Although the sharply curved steel plate of the "rifle" configuration is my favorite:
Image

Others don't like this version, although I've found that if you're the... "large, economy-sized" type individual, this seems to be the prevailing attitude. I kinda think it's simply harder for the XXL or bigger guys to find a place where the points don't... poke 'em.

Of other differences, the only one of real note is the change from a pin thru the receiver and lower link in early and late versions to a screw in the majority of post '64s. The pin is retained by a screw thru the bottom of the lower link and can become lost. The screw thru the receiver and lower link in the other version is the same as the hammer screw, but can also become loose and affect the operation. I have not personally encountered a lost screw of either type while using any of mine, but... have misplaced that little retaining screw on ocassion during cleaning and/or maintenance.

In my mind, the post '64s represent the most bang for your Winchester 94 buck. Some of the most accurate rifles I've competed against in long range side matches during cowboy action shoots have been post '64 commemorative rifles. While I have over $600 in my custom competition rifle, some of the pards I shoot with have less than $400 in their equally accurate commemorative! (Mine's still better looking, tho!)

There are a few tricks to accurize your Winchester 94 carbine, one of the most significant is simply the torque used to hold the barrel band screws in place, especially the rear.

In short, they were (and in some closed minds, are) considered inferior because of the "mystery" metal the receivers were made of, the stamped steel lifter which was prone to breakage and the overall workmanship. However, for a firearm that sold in Wal-Marts until early 2006 for just over $250, they represent a continuing bargain.
Griff,
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Old Savage
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Post by Old Savage »

Wow Griff, thank you for that answer, very informative. I am on another side of the fence. I bought my first about 1990 from a Kmart. It has the rebounding hammer with no safety. It will shoot under an inch at 100 yds with a couple of types of factory ammo, 20" carbine. I also have a late model 25-35 with at tang safety. It will shoot I" or slightly better for 5 with at least two loads. A 26" 1894-1994 shoots very well also and it has a cross bolt safety. It is top eject. I have had a couple of others including a nice pre 64 and an NRA Commemorative which was essentially a Model 64 but the ones above are my favorites. I like the AEs. I have scoped 2 of those and have a 24" I haven't. I don't really care if they have safeties or what kind - I work with whatever they are and it isn't an issue with me. Some guys grew up with the half cock versions and really prefer it.
Last edited by Old Savage on Sat Dec 22, 2007 1:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Swampman
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Post by Swampman »

I've owned a nice 1950s era Model 94, and some really trashy looking 1970s era 94s. All shot equally well.

I only own Marlins right now.

I buy a lot of guns that are less than perfect, because I hunt with them. If they are too nice I won't use them.
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Post by Chuck 100 yd »

Nice post Griff! I printed it and will put in my Leverguns referance binder # 2.
So much good stuff here ,I started a 3 ring binder to keep it all. Almost have #2 full now. :wink:
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Post by gak »

Also speaking just about the pre AE guns, I'll second the comments about the late 70s to early 80s pre AE guns being pretty decent again after a sad 10+ years of the immediate Post 64 scintered stuff. I'm talking about the later 70s/early 80s ones with the cast lifters and (what appears to be) reversion to the better - or similar - receiver metal of the pre 64s. I have a 79 that's just (about) as nice as my several Pre 64s, other than the plainer wood mentioned by somebody. I like to have/take pride in my guns - they don't have to be works of art, but no "mystery metal" for me, thanks -- I don't care if they just happen to shoot decently -- but they also have to look and feel like quality too.
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Post by J Miller »

Griff sprained his typing fingers on that response. I usually do that.

OK, so as not to duplicate what Griff and everybody else has said I'll just say this:

I've had Mdl 94 Winchesters made from the early 1900s to 1985. With a couple exceptions for abused and worn out guns I picked up they were all good shooting carbines. All of them would keep their bullets within 2.5" or less at 100 yards. All of them were reliable. All of them were decent looking.
So until proven to be a stinker I'd not worry about any vintage Mdl 94. Check any potential purchase out for obvious abuse, rust, outrageous alterations, or damage and go from there.
Most rifles are carried more than they are used, so blue wear is not a good indicator of condition.

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Post by Grizz »

It would be wonderful information if someone would post the serial number range of the sintered metal receivers so we can have a handy reference. The only other thing I would avoid is the cross-bolt safety, that thing is ugly beyond compensation.

Regards,

Grizz
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Post by Pisgah »

There's no doubt in my estimation that the pre-64 Model 94s are, in general, of higher quality than the later ones. If I had my 'druthers (and the money), I'd pick,say, a 1948 version over a 1978 one.

However, being as the older 94s are increasingly scarce and expensive, I'll frankly state that as shooters the post-94 guns are every bit as good as the oldtimers and maybe even (Gasp!) on average more accurate. And, a big, big plus -- you can still find them at very, very reasonable prices.
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J Miller
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Post by J Miller »

It would be wonderful information if someone would post the serial number range of the sintered metal receivers so we can have a handy reference. The only other thing I would avoid is the cross-bolt safety, that thing is ugly beyond compensation.

Regards,

Grizz
Grizz,
Here is some information I got recently:
WINCHESTER MODEL 1894
Winchester 1894 receivers between 2,770,000 and 5,024,957 (1964-1981) were machined from a graphitic steel casting and will not accept normal blueing. To make it more confusing, serial numbers 3,185,692 to 3,806,499 (1968-1972) were black chrome plated, and 3,806,500 to 5,024,957 (1972 -1981) were iron plated.
I can hot blue all of these, but must first grind off the plating. The shiniest finish that can go on these is 400 grit ( about factory).

George Roghaar Firearm Refinishing.
http://www.gunblue.homestead.com/Stainless.html

Hope this helps a bit.

Joe
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Post by Lastmohecken »

I have one pre-64 which was a sorta beater, but in general, except for bluing, a pretty nice gun, and several post 64's, commeratives, top ejects, angle ejects and angle ejects with safetys.

All are good guns, but for an iron sighted gun, I will take a pre-64 any day of week. You can hand me a pre-64 vs a post 64 and I can tell you blindfolded which is which, everytime, and I like the heft and feel of a pre-64 much better.

Personally, I hate the new rebounding hammer/safety models, and I probably won't ever buy another one. I am just not going to put up with that stuff on my guns, and I can afford the older stuff, so that is all I will buy. I do have one 357 trapper with all of the safety stuff and I like it, it has been a good gun so far, but I still hate that safety on there, and I can't just ignore it, I may remove it, yet.
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Post by 2ndovc »

I've had abouta dozen 94s over the years. Right now i have three. a 9410, my Grandfather's 38-55, and a early 80's trapper I picked up at a show not a month before Winchester announced the closing of the plant. The 9410 is neat and works well but the plastic front sight base and marginal wood to metal are not what I would expect from Win.
The 100 year old 38-55 and the 80's 30-30 trapper will both shoot 1 1/2-2" @ 100 yds if I do my part.

Wish i had kept all the others. Not a bad one in the bunch. Sold them to make a couple bucks.

8)
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Post by Guncase »

I shoot all my guns, so I buy ones that have been messed with to save money. Last fall, I picked up a 1947 (as near as I can tell) flatband .32 special for $300.00. Someone had added a ventilated recoil pad and saved me a whole lot of money. :wink:
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The Lewis
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Post by The Lewis »

Thanks for the opine, Gentleman. Griff, that was above and beyond. And Guncase, I like that way of thinking as well. Now just have to start lookin'...
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Post by Modoc ED »

To add to the info in the quote posted by "J Miller" (very helpful by the way):

Pre-64:

From approximately Serial # range 500,00 through 1.200,000 the receivers were prone to flaking because of the high nickle content in the receivers. Even new in the box rifles suffered from receiver flaking even though they had never been handled.

Post-64:

In 1983 at approximately Serial # 5,200,00 the AE receivers returned to Steel Forgings.

I bought one of my nephews a Winchester Model 94 in the late 70s and he has used that little carbine for his truck guy ever since. It rides on the floor boards and is scratched and beat up in several places but it functions perfectly. I'd bet he has in excess of 5000 rounds through it taking pot shots at coyotes and deer hunting and it has never skipped a beat.

As for the Pre/Post 64s, the post-64s didn't match the pre-64s as far as fit and finish but there sure are a heck of a lot of them around and I've never seen a post-64 just thrown away because it didn't work. As a matter-of-fact, there were more post-64s made than there were pre-64s made. That's gotta say something. If the post-64s were stuff, they would have never sold.


"J Miller" said,

"I've had Mdl 94 Winchesters made from the early 1900s to 1985. With a couple exceptions for abused and worn out guns I picked up they were all good shooting carbines. All of them would keep their bullets within 2.5" or less at 100 yards. All of them were reliable. All of them were decent looking.
So until proven to be a stinker I'd not worry about any vintage Mdl 94. Check any potential purchase out for obvious abuse, rust, outrageous alterations, or damage and go from there.
Most rifles are carried more than they are used, so blue wear is not a good indicator of condition. "

Right on Joe.
ED
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Post by Lastmohecken »

Yes, I have to agree, out of probably 15 different Model 94's I have owned, they all worked reliabily 100% of the time, except for one really slick pre-64 (believe it or not) and I did have some failure to feed problems with it. It was a beautiful gun made in 1948, but I never could get it to work 100%, so I eventually got rid of it. I figured it probably never did work 100% even when new, so it didn't get used much, which accounted for it great shape.

At anyrate, I have to say, I have had lemmons in just about everything, but precentage wise the model 94's regardless of vintage have been as reliable as anything I ever had.

What I really like about the pre-64s vs the post 64's is the lever, on pre-64s the lever closes hard against the stock, and it just feels much better to me then the post 64's which require the lever to be squessed to fire the weapon. I guess I am just spoiled, but the required squessing of the lever has always bugged me on the post 64's, and I have been shooting them for over 40yrs. :)
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