POLITICS - Lakota Indians Withdraw from Treaties w/US

[James Riley]

Bogie35,

The fact is I sure as hell didn't cause their social problems and either did you.

Our government did. And we benefit from it. You and I. We stand on that pile of bones I refered to above. But nobody is asking individuals, like you and me, to carry the burden. It's a government obligation. Sure, we pay taxes, but you want your's spent over seas on some other people? I want mine spent here at home, honoring promises. The government signed the treaties. A government, like a man, is only as good as his word. If we are going to salute the flag and spout patriotism, then we should have a reason to do so. Honor is a good reason.

On the other hand, if "we" are going to blame individual Indian depradations on the whole tribe, then maybe you and I, individually, should accept responsability. But that is not the way it works. It's a dispute among soveriegns. We pretend we have control over ours.

[Mich Hunter]

James,

I agree

[James Riley]

James,

I agree

darn it! That ain't fair! No agreeing allowed!

With that, I'm going to drop this thread and never look back at it again. I am also going to stay with lever guns and non-controversial topics.

[Blaine]

The only reason it won't work is because we don't have the honor to do it. There are many, many Indians who are more than capable of handling the situation. They did for thousands of years. There is only one common denominator that stands in the way: us.

Complete nonsense........The lowest of the low struggle to reach these shores and given a superior work ethic begin to prosper....I'm really, really tired of hearing how Whitey be holdin' down the People....Get your people off the Res and into honest work....out of the Ghetto and into honest work.....Thousands of years.....Ok I'd love to see prehistoric NAs head up a S&P 500 company I'm not a real big fan of my Gubment, but I'm also not real big on throwing hands full of money at a problem until it disappears (it's never enough and it never works)

[Bogie35]

Bogie35,

Get real. The fact is I sure as hell didn't cause their social problems and either did you. You can be anti government all day long and it still won't change a thing. I don't agree with everything the governemnt does, but its what we have.
They play the blame game just like many blacks do now. Remember the "Back to Africa" movement??? Look how far that went. It shouldn't take 120 years to get you act together. Treaty or no treay, there were conqured people. Were they treated unfairly???? They sure were. Was my family treated like Irish scum when they came across??? Sure as hell were. Did my family sit on their butts for the last 120 years complaining about it??? No, they went and got a job!!! Nothing is free.

Even if the the treaties were honored, where would they be after that. Do you honestly think these people want to live like they did in 1880?? Thats stuff. How many Lakota's have you talked to in South Carolina?? Would their honor be restored??? Sure. Would they still have the problem they do now.??? You bet!!!

Fact is the reservations do need to be done away with. Make them assimilate and sustain themselves. Otherwise, they will still be in the same place now in another 100 years.

Both sides are guilty.

Understood. However, the problem I have is that some people want to accuse the Native Americans of being a weak people, which is absolute stuff! They survived quite well before the whites came along. In fact, the whites may not have survived if not for the help that they received early on by Native Americans.

And by the way, conquering innocent people was NEVER the intention of our forefathers. If anything, their intention was freeing innocent people from oppressing governments. The idea of conquering the Native Americans came later, mostly with the discovery of gold in the west. Driven by greed, the white man squatted on land that rightfully belonged to someone else. And when the Native Americans resisted, we killed them and took their land anyway. THAT IS NOT "AMERICAN"!

So, for anyone to bad mouth a people who have refused to "play the game", is pretty sad. It's another case of passing judgment on people whose shoes we have never walked a mile in.

Humbly,
bogie

[ndcowboy]

If this will get me more realistic hunting licenses from North and South Dakota, I'm with them.
Maybe if the Native Americans ran those States, I would like heading west to hunt a little more than I do now.

Eric

What do you mean by "more realistic hunting licenses"? Our licenses are plenty reasonable. The gas it takes you to drive here is more than the licenses.

Also, I think this is a complete disaster as far as the Lakota tribe is concerned. How exactly are they going to fund their roads, schools, etc. when the article clearly states they will be "tax-free"?

[Blaine]

Title: Manifest Destiny
Author: John O'Sullivan
Year Published: 1839

John L. O'Sullivan on Manifest Destiny, 1839

The American people having derived their origin from many other nations, and the Declaration of National Independence being entirely based on the great principle of human equality, these facts demonstrate at once our disconnected position as regards any other nation; that we have, in reality, but little connection with the past history of any of them, and still less with all antiquity, its glories, or its crimes. On the contrary, our national birth was the beginning of a new history, the formation and progress of an untried political system, which separates us from the past and connects us with the future only; and so far as regards the entire development of the natural rights of man, in moral, political, and national life, we may confidently assume that our country is destined to be the great nation of futurity.

It is so destined, because the principle upon which a nation is organized fixes its destiny, and that of equality is perfect, is universal. It presides in all the operations of the physical world, and it is also the conscious law of the soul -- the self-evident dictates of morality, which accurately defines the duty of man to man, and consequently man's rights as man. Besides, the truthful annals of any nation furnish abundant evidence, that its happiness, its greatness, its duration, were always proportionate to the democratic equality in its system of government. . . .

What friend of human liberty, civilization, and refinement, can cast his view over the past history of the monarchies and aristocracies of antiquity, and not deplore that they ever existed? What philanthropist can contemplate the oppressions, the cruelties, and injustice inflicted by them on the masses of mankind, and not turn with moral horror from the retrospect?

America is destined for better deeds. It is our unparalleled glory that we have no reminiscences of battle fields, but in defence of humanity, of the oppressed of all nations, of the rights of conscience, the rights of personal enfranchisement. Our annals describe no scenes of horrid carnage, where men were led on by hundreds of thousands to slay one another, dupes and victims to emperors, kings, nobles, demons in the human form called heroes. We have had patriots to defend our homes, our liberties, but no aspirants to crowns or thrones; nor have the American people ever suffered themselves to be led on by wicked ambition to depopulate the land, to spread desolation far and wide, that a human being might be placed on a seat of supremacy.

We have no interest in the scenes of antiquity, only as lessons of avoidance of nearly all their examples. The expansive future is our arena, and for our history. We are entering on its untrodden space, with the truths of God in our minds, beneficent objects in our hearts, and with a clear conscience unsullied by the past. We are the nation of human progress, and who will, what can, set limits to our onward march? Providence is with us, and no earthly power can. We point to the everlasting truth on the first page of our national declaration, and we proclaim to the millions of other lands, that "the gates of hell" -- the powers of aristocracy and monarchy -- "shall not prevail against it."

The far-reaching, the boundless future will be the era of American greatness. In its magnificent domain of space and time, the nation of many nations is destined to manifest to mankind the excellence of divine principles; to establish on earth the noblest temple ever dedicated to the worship of the Most High -- the Sacred and the True. Its floor shall be a hemisphere -- its roof the firmament of the star-studded heavens, and its congregation an Union of many Republics, comprising hundreds of happy millions, calling, owning no man master, but governed by God's natural and moral law of equality, the law of brotherhood -- of "peace and good will amongst men.". . .

Yes, we are the nation of progress, of individual freedom, of universal enfranchisement. Equality of rights is the cynosure of our union of States, the grand exemplar of the correlative equality of individuals; and while truth sheds its effulgence, we cannot retrograde, without dissolving the one and subverting the other. We must onward to the fulfilment of our mission -- to the entire development of the principle of our organization -- freedom of conscience, freedom of person, freedom of trade and business pursuits, universality of freedom and equality. This is our high destiny, and in nature's eternal, inevitable decree of cause and effect we must accomplish it. All this will be our future history, to establish on earth the moral dignity and salvation of man -- the immutable truth and beneficence of God. For this blessed mission to the nations of the world, which are shut out from the life-giving light of truth, has America been chosen; and her high example shall smite unto death the tyranny of kings, hierarchs, and oligarchs, and carry the glad tidings of peace and good will where myriads now endure an existence scarcely more enviable than that of beasts of the field. Who, then, can doubt that our country is destined to be the great nation of futurity?



Love our Country or Hate it, Manifest Destiny was the cornerstone our country was built on. The Indians didn't exist on/in a fixed claim of land.....they considered all of it theirs....We did not. We took it. So what? It's the way of things. Hell, they are a soverign nation...let's have a do over and see who wins yet again.... Heck, you're a lawyer..... under well defined and long time terms of Adverst Possession, their claim would never hold water........

[BAGTIC]

Extremely interesting. Texas retains the right of secession, but this is somewhat different. More like suing the govt for breach of contract, without the court action, ...yet.

ALL states retain the right of secession.

[ndcowboy]

If this will get me more realistic hunting licenses from North and South Dakota, I'm with them.
Maybe if the Native Americans ran those States, I would like heading west to hunt a little more than I do now.

Eric

Eric,
This really bugged me, so I did some checking. Both ND and MN charge the exact same for out of state general game such as pheasants. Deer are a little higher at $200 in ND and compared to $141 nonresident in MN. Furbearer is $161 in MN compared to only $25 in ND for nonresidents.
A 10 day nonresident fishing license in ND is $25. In MN, a 7 day non resident license is $25.
So exactly how is ND not very realistic compared to your home state?

[Bogie35]

Blaine, with all due respect, using Manifest Destiny as an argument for conquering innocent people is oxymoronic. Most people have never truly read Manifest Destiny. It in no way advocates conquering innocent people in pursuit of American goals! That has been a HUGE misconception for decades.

"...but governed by God's natural and moral law of equality, the law of brotherhood -- of "peace and good will amongst men..."

Sincerely,
bogie

[Blaine]

Blaine, with all due respect, using Manifest Destiny as an argument for conquering innocent people is oxymoronic. Most people have never truly read Manifest Destiny. It in no way advocates conquering innocent people in pursuit of American goals! That has been a HUGE misconception for decades.

"...but governed by God's natural and moral law of equality, the law of brotherhood -- of "peace and good will amongst men..."

Sincerely,
bogie

( Isn't "With all Respect" the same as "Bless His Heart"? )

It is not the principle now, but that was certainly the way it was in the early eighteen hundreds...I'm glad we didn't treat the indians the way they treated each other War and conquering was and still is the way of things..... The pearls America offer are there for all....just get off the Res and find them on your own...

[Bogie35]

( Isn't "With all Respect" the same as "Bless His Heart"? )

You're on to me!

Thanks.

bogie

[joachim slim]

so it was ok for the indians to wipe out whole tribes they were warring with. take everything the others had and claim it as their own. they also inslaved and tortured their enemys for their own pleasure. what happened to the cultures (lets say native native americans) that were here before the lakota's or other native americans.? i beleive they were assimilated or wiped out. im sick of all the whineing and crying. also the gimmee , gimmee poor me attitude. im sorry they feel they were screwd and mistreated by people i had no control over. i went to school, went to college, went in the military, got out and found work, raised a family, payed taxes, pay for my health care, buy my food and clothing, pay for my own vehicles. when do i get a break and a hand out.

[JoeArizona]

Treaty, no Treaty, broken Treaty, whatever.

Talk to people who have lived, worked, and/or taught on reservations if you really want to know anything about the 'poor' Native American.

Corruption is rampant in their governments. Some tribes here in Arizona make fortunes from their casinos and most of the tribe still lives in poverty. The older Navajos that you see on TV are the traditionalists who have chosen to live that way.

As a teenager, my wife had a friend who was from the Pine Ridge reservation up in the area in question. After working for the summer in Yellowstone, this girls ambition was to go back to the reservation, get pregnant (with or without marriage), and start collecting 'her checks'. Apparently this was the norm.

As a group, they have more Federal money and more opportunities than other groups. It's all what you as an individual choose to make of yourself.

[Blaine]

( Isn't "With all Respect" the same as "Bless His Heart"? )

You're on to me!

Thanks.

bogie

I enjoy good discourse with respectful and honorable men....

[Eric M.]

Don't get me started on how great your Dakota hunting licenses are Cowboy.
North Dakota has a one week residence only duck season before non-residence people can hunt.
Migratory waterfowel are paid for by eveyone partner. They don't belong to just one state.
Also out of state people pay full price for Duck licenses, but can only hunt for 10 days.
Minnesota is in court over your one week resident only hunt of waterfowl.

I would like to see Minnesota make Dakota residence only people have to wait until the second week of Minnesota fishing season to start fishing here and then only let them fish for ten days during the season at full non-resident price.

As it stands, I took my hunting and went to Canada with it many years ago.

I stand by my first post.
Give the Dakota's to the Native Americans, and then I can hunt and have some fun over there.

Eric

[C. Cash]

If we are gonna survive as a Nation, we need to stop blaming other people for our problems. Look in the mirror, and start changing that. Anyone who has a mind can work and achieve what they want, provided they are of good moral character and are willing to work through the tough times. I lived around the Navajo and Apache growing up, and it felt sad to watch them drink themselves to death and do nothing about their own lives and community. Some did of course. It's shame, when there are many other options for these good folks(Native Americans and other minorities) in this wonderful country. The military is a good start for young men and women of all races, and is just one option among many. Pride and hatred for others will keep you in a pit if you let it.

[Blaine]

While we are enabling more NAs, lets give Alaska back to Russia, The whole southwest back to Mexico.....the La purchase back to France and so on........You are aware that the current NAs took it away violently away from some other ancient, now extinct tribes.....Heck, let's all go back the the Garden of Eden and arm wrestle for it

[sore shoulder]

Hey Chris, I think the military is probably about the best option for the American Indian to help with the social dilemma facing them and I would be proud to serve next to them. I say this because as a race they were inclined to warfare as part of their social fabric, and in fact it was how a young man gained stature in the community, to whit, how many enemies he had killed and how many of their horses and women he stole. I know there are exceptions to this, but exceptions are never a valid argument in a greater issue. To expect a culture that was dominant for thousands of years to suddenly change is completely unrealistic, especially when the options were not designed to help, constantly changed, and were dishonestly revoked at will. Lets face it, they are still trying to recover from the lack of options that were afforded them when they were placed on the reservations, and I for one am ashamed of it. I don't know what the answer is, but I also don't believe someone who was not raised in that broken culture has the right to presume how easy it is for them to get ahead. Even the freed slaves were afforded more courtesy, and they did not have their land stolen and people murdered in the name of progress. One might even say they benefited in the long run after their African brothers sold them out.

[Rusty]

If you want to see how this works someplace else, come to Fla. The Seminole tribe has never signed a treaty with the U.S. Gov't. they remain to this day unconquered and sovereign. We just had an issue come to a head here not long ago concerning the casinos. the Imperial Federal Gov't gave the state of Fla. a deadline to reach an agreement with the tribe or the tribe was going to be able to do whatever it wanted to. The state will now get a portion of the gambling revenues.
Ever heard of Hard Rock Cafe? the have 'em on the "reservations" here and they are doing quite well making money off of the whites. Then on the other hand it's all about location, location, location.

To be honest about it I look at all the money the tribe is making off the whites and I'm glad they're doing good. I'm sure there is corruption in their leadership as well, but that's for them to sort out.

Rusty <><

[Blaine]

Oh, SS

[sore shoulder]

While we are enabling more NAs, lets give Alaska back to Russia

Do you often return things you've paid for?

, The whole southwest back to Mexico

NO...and we took that from the Spanish and French, who took it from the NA's, and we could prove adverse possesion.

the La purchase back to France and so on

Again, we paid for it. I would say let them have LA (just LA, not the original Purchase) back at fair market value. That way when those criminals in NO get out of line we can just send in the Marines.

........You are aware that the current NAs took it away violently away from some other ancient, now extinct tribes.

2 wrongs dont make a right.

[Bogie35]

I enjoy good discourse with respectful and honorable men....

Likewise!

bogie

[ndcowboy]

Don't get me started on how great your Dakota hunting licenses are Cowboy.
North Dakota has a one week residence only duck season before non-residence people can hunt.
Migratory waterfowel are paid for by eveyone partner. They don't belong to just one state.
Also out of state people pay full price for Duck licenses, but can only hunt for 10 days.
Minnesota is in court over your one week resident only hunt of waterfowl.

I would like to see Minnesota make Dakota residence only people have to wait until the second week of Minnesota fishing season to start fishing here and then only let them fish for ten days during the season at full non-resident price.

As it stands, I took my hunting and went to Canada with it many years ago.

I stand by my first post.
Give the Dakota's to the Native Americans, and then I can hunt and have some fun over there.

Eric

So, essentially your problem with our state is we take care of residents first. GOOD. That's the way I think it should be done.
Do you think the ducks all leave after the first week? That first week is a great chance for the youngsters of our state to get out without much competition.
Don't get me wrong - I have a couple guys from Minnesota who come over to my place to hunt every year - so it isn't like I don't like Minnesotans - but we take care of ours first.

[C. Cash]

Hey Chris, I think the military is probably about the best option for the American Indian to help with the social dilemma facing them and I would be proud to serve next to them. I say this because as a race they were inclined to warfare as part of their social fabric, and in fact it was how a young man gained stature in the community, to whit, how many enemies he had killed and how many of their horses and women he stole. I know there are exceptions to this, but exceptions are never a valid argument in a greater issue. To expect a culture that was dominant for thousands of years to suddenly change is completely unrealistic, especially when the options were not designed to help, constantly changed, and were dishonestly revoked at will. Lets face it, they are still trying to recover from the lack of options that were afforded them when they were placed on the reservations, and I for one am ashamed of it. I don't know what the answer is, but I also don't believe someone who was not raised in that broken culture has the right to presume how easy it is for them to get ahead. Even the freed slaves were afforded more courtesy, and they did not have their land stolen and people murdered in the name of progress. One might even say they benefited in the long run after their African brothers sold them out.

Hi Sore,
The way I see it, everyone's people has been a victim of some ruling class at one time. My Grandparents lost everything during the Depression and left Oklahoma and Texas to chop cotton and work the fields in Central CA. To most of society, they were "Dirty Okies"....they were shunned and treated like garbage for the most part. When they weren't homeless, they lived in tents and shacks with dirt floors and worked essentially like slaves for mere pennies. But you know, they just kept working, praying and doing the right thing. They never blamed anyone for their poverty, dead children, mistreatment by others....etc or held a grudge. It wouldn't have changed anything and it went againt their Faith. It took until the next generation but they worked themselves out and brought their children out too. Both my Dad and myself used the military option to change our futures. I've served proudly alongside Native Americans. It is inspiring and humbling to see these original Americans serving as warriors for our Country. Despite the they did/we did's of history, it is what it is. We're all in this together, or divided we're gonna fall. The Left has to keep the hatred alive to keep their voters voting for them, sadly, through teaching our kids lopsided history and and mainting a left leaning press. Otherwise, these "powerless" classes might have had and easier time effecting change for themselves and those around them.

[RSY]

Someone a couple pages back already summed this whole thing up in a way that really leaves no more room for commentary: Might makes right. End of story.

That's how we operate, that's how the so-called "native" Americans operated, that's...basic human nature. If the roles had been reversed back then, the strong would have treated the weaker in a very similar manner.

I wish those that bewail the plight of the "natives" would do some research into how things were between the tribes before, and even after, "evil whitey" showed up here. It was not some happy hunting ground utopia with the tribes living in peace among themselves. They lived in a constant state of conflict, often extremely sadistic by our standards, with each other.

Hey, once we get all this ironed out over here, maybe we can address the wrongs done to all my Gaelic and Teutonic ancestors by the Roman Empire. Does centuries of enslavement and oppression count for anything? I think we need a class-action suit against the Italian government. Whaddaya think?

Don't ignore the past, but for cryin' out loud, quit living in it!!!

scott

[Blaine]

Korea was enslaved by the Japanese from 1911 to the end of WWII and within a generation became a serious player in the world market......The Japanese were interned during WWII and they are amoung the most sucessful people in america....Funny how people coming from all over world get here and greatly prosper, yet generations of Blacks, Indians and other Res or Ghetto denizens never get out of the welfare cycle....You're right, Whites keep them there for a political base...Socialist and Liberal Whites....the ACLU and LAWYERS are the enablers.....I get real sore when a perfectly healthy drunk or drug addict or welfare addict sez they can't do something because they be held back....that's BS and a lie and everyone knows it.

[JoeArizona]

With the list of 'victims' growing daily, who will be left to be blamed, shamed, and made to pay?

I'm sure I was held back at some time in my life. And I blame all of you, so I expect those checks to start rolling in. Better start writing...

[Dirty Dan]

(It is also the mark of the greedy "I've got mine, and I'll be darned if I let any cripple/minority/impoverished/etc. person or legislator get his hands on any of it" attitude. Guilt abounds in the heart of any man who abides injustice and that is why so many people feel so put-upon by liberal programs. It has nothing to do with liberal guilt. It is conservative guilt manifesting itself in defensive, circle-the-wagons, hysteria. )

What liberal layer stuff! and this is just one little piece of the pie, there's sooooo much to choose from, I'm overwhelmed. I bet you are for "slave reparations" too. But the reason most of America feels put upon is they see a big mouthed minortity, in it for notoriity and $$, telling the rest of us how to live our lives.

I and a lot of others are past ready to say, Sit the F*&^ down, and shut the H3!! up.

[engravertom]

Might makes right. End of story.

To put it briefly then, the constitution is a sham, and we should stop appealing to it. Just get by, hope the big bad guys don't target you, and hide your guns when they call for them, if you think it is worth it.

Why resist ANY evil then? The biggest guns win, so just sit back, and be assimilated...

A few other points-

Jefferson himself didn't see the constitutional justification for the Louisiana purchase, but ultimately the "ends justify the means" won out.

As a Christian, I find the concept of America as a Christian nation too ironic for words. Christ did not advance, nor does he advance,his kingdom with the sword.

Although some good, some great good at times, has been achieved by this nation, the blood unrighteously shed cries out for justice, from converted Christian natives wickedly slain by "whites" to the millions of unborn who have been slaughtered in the name of "privacy" in recent times.

I laugh with sad laughter at conservatives who laud the big government of Jackson, Lincoln, Grant, etc. , but who cry out against the big government of today.

Might makes right? You lost, so quit whining?

If so, none of us has any ground for complaining against-

Gun control,
Taxes,
Forced sex education,
Welfare,
Illegal immigration,
Abortion,
gays in the military,
lead bans,
or any other thing the government does.

After all, they got the votes, or stole the votes, or put a gun to your head, so stop griping!

My personal belief is that Lincoln, for example, and many others, have made the Union, the United States, a graven image to be worshiped and defended at every cost. What is so holy about a certain arbitrary geographic boundary? When the Chinese conquer us someday, will your children quietly submit, and say " after all, might makes right"?

Might does not make right, God makes right, and he says "The nations are as the drop of a bucket, and are reckoned as the small dust of the scales..."

The U.S. has come, and it will go, the way of ancient Egypt and Rome someday, perhaps someday soon.

Those who look for salvation in a nation, look in vain.

I love my country, and I took an oath to defend the constitution that rules it. "Righteousness exalteth a nation, but sin is a reproach to any people."

The true patriot will desire to see his homeland pursue righteousness, and reject evil, for that is the way to secure blessing for his country, and the well being of his fellow countrymen.

When I have done wrong, the thing to do is to admit it, turn from it, and make amends, if possible, and if necessary.

The same is true of nations.

Take care,

Tom

[pharmseller]

With the list of 'victims' growing daily, who will be left to be blamed, shamed, and made to pay?

I'm sure I was held back at some time in my life. And I blame all of you, so I expect those checks to start rolling in. Better start writing...

Hey Joe, I'm livin' the American Dream and as far as I know I haven't been abused or abused anyone.

So how much do I owe you?

Quinn

[Old Ironsights]

With the list of 'victims' growing daily, who will be left to be blamed, shamed, and made to pay?

The "mentally ill".

It's ok to call them names and blame them for everything.

[JoeArizona]

With the list of 'victims' growing daily, who will be left to be blamed, shamed, and made to pay?

I'm sure I was held back at some time in my life. And I blame all of you, so I expect those checks to start rolling in. Better start writing...

Hey Joe, I'm livin' the American Dream and as far as I know I haven't been abused or abused anyone.

So how much do I owe you?

Quinn

Hey, I thought it was worth a try.

[JoeArizona]

With the list of 'victims' growing daily, who will be left to be blamed, shamed, and made to pay?

The "mentally ill".

It's ok to call them names and blame them for everything.

Point! I have done a lot of volunteer time with special people and they are truely victims. Be it from their druggy mothers while in the womb, bad doctors during delivery, or the luck of the draw.

But I have found them to be some of the most genuine, happy, and hard working people on earth.

God loves them, and so do I!

Those experiences with true victims are what make me so angry with all the other 'victims' in the world.

I'm lucky and I know it. My family knows how lucky they are. And we didn't get where we are by accident.

Life isn't fair, but we can help each other to try to even it out some. But EVERYONE has to try, and you can't help someone that doesn't want help...but only wants sympathy.

Having said all of that...

It's easy to talk about other groups as a whole and make black and white, right and wrong points. But whenever we spend time on the Navajo Res we always see some little ones we would adopt in a heartbeat. When you put a face on the issue it becomes personal.

People like Russel Means, Al Sharpton, and Jesse Jackson just want to compound the issues to continue their power base and they only further victimize their own people. They unite their people against a common outside enemy, tell them nothing is their fault, and that everyone else owes them. They are part of the problem, not the solution.

Wow...I didn't know I had that in me. Thanks for letting me vent a little...

Merry Christmas to everyone here.

[Bogie35]

All of you who are saying that conquered people should shut up and get over it, please don't have the nerve to bitch and moan about gun control, illegal immigrants or 9/11! Just shut up and get over it! It sounds to me like the U.S. government has already added YOU to it's list of "conquered people." It has conquered you through your complacency. In other words, you've become their "sheeple", blindly justifying why people should just be still while the U.S. government screws them! Shame on you! Tell the truth. Were your ancestors in with those pansy red coats?

Sincerely,
bogie

[Bogie35]

"Might makes right. End of story."

What a crock! If you feel that way, then write a letter to the victims of Columbine, the mall shootings and 9/11. Be sure to tell them that "might makes right."

Sincerely,
bogie

[Blaine]

All of you who are saying that conquered people should shut up and get over it, please don't have the nerve to bitch and moan about gun control, illegal immigrants or 9/11! Just shut up and get over it! It sounds to me like the U.S. government has already added YOU to it's list of "conquered people." It has conquered you through your complacency. In other words, you've become their "sheeple", blindly justifying why people should just be still while the U.S. government screws them! Shame on you! Tell the truth. Were your ancestors in with those pansy red coats?

Sincerely,
bogie

Warning---Warning-----BS attack in progress------Geeeez, Bogie, that's what conquered people do...shut up and do as they are told. Wake up, Sir. You'd make a pee poor pirate....loot the village then give it all back Tell the truth, were your ancestors in with those all-forgiving missionaries?

[Bogie35]

Warning---Warning-----BS attack in progress------Geeeez, Bogie, that's what conquered people do...shut up and do as they are told. Wake up, Sir. You'd make a pee poor pirate....loot the village then give it all back Tell the truth, were your ancestors in with those all-forgiving missionaries?

You're right. I would make a pee poor pirate, because I don't go around taking things that don't belong to me. And I don't tolerate those who do, even when it is the U.S. government. I don't just turn a blind eye simply because it doesn't directly affect me. No, that's what the weak silent majority does. And that's a very good reason why America is not everything it could be today.

Besides, the U.S. government is who you're really talking about. It loves to spend $1 on destroying a place and $5 restoring it.

And Blaine, you're no fun. It's hard to stay mad at a nice guy!

Sincerely,
bogie

[Blaine]

How far back do you want to go with this returning of lands won in war time?

[RSY]

"Might makes right. End of story."

What a crock! If you feel that way, then write a letter to the victims of Columbine, the mall shootings and 9/11. Be sure to tell them that "might makes right."

Sincerely,
bogie

Note well that I did not say "might = right" in an absolute philosophical sense, but rather makes it. The strong impose their will on the weak and call it "right." That's the way it works, regardless of the skin color or ethnicity of the groups involved. It's human nature, so let's quit all the American self-loathing/white-guilt BS, already.

In fact, in every instance you cite above, it was just that: One group, lulled into a false sense of security by the powers that be, was preyed upon by another more motivated individual or group that was going to impose its version of "right" on them at its pleasure.

scott

[Terry Murbach]

I LIVE RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF THE DISPUTED LAND. IF WE GIVE IT BACK TO THE LAKOTA DO THEY HAVE TO GIVE IT BACK TO THE INDIANS THEY TOOK IT FROM, THE TRIBES THE LAKOTA DID NOT WIPE OUT TO THE LAST MAN THAT IS. GO FIND ME A LIVING PONCA INDIAN.
YOU NOTE THIS: DENNIS MEANS IS THE LEADER OF NOTHING BUT HIS OWN LYING YAP. HE HAS NEVER BEEN A LAKOTA/SIOUX LEADER. HE HAS BEEN REJECTED BY THE LAKOTA EVERY TIME HE HAS EVER RAN FOR LAKOTA OFFICE. MOST OF THE RESERVATIONS HERE IN SOUTH DAKOTA, STANDING ROCK, ROSEBUD, CHEYENNE RIVER ETC CANNOT STAND THE SIGHT OF SIOUX FROM PINE RIDGE. YOU THINK I AM KIDDING !!! NO WAY !!!! EVEN THE PEOPLE THEMSELVES FROM CHEYENNE RIVER FOR INSTANCE LOOK DIFFERENT, ACT DIFFERENT, TALK DIFFERENT ETC FROM ANY ONE FROM PINE RIDGE WHEN I SAY A CHEYENNE RIVER INDIAN CANNOT--CANNOT!!!--STAND THE SIGHT OF A PINE RIDGE LAKOTA I DO NOT EXAGGERATE IN THE SLIGHTEST AT ALL.
YOU SHOULD ALSO NOTE THE LAKOTA SIOUX WERE KICKED OUT OF MINNESOTA AROUND 1775 BY SANTEE THE SIOUX THERE WHO COULD NOT STAND BEING AROUND THE LAKOTA ANYMORE. IT WAS EITHER LEAVE OR WE KILL ALL OF YOU. THE LAKOTA SWEPT OUT ACROSS SOUTH DAKOTA KILLING OR RUNNING OUT ALL THE PEACEFUL TRIBES LIVING ALONG THE BIG MUDDY. THEY KICKED THE CHEYENNE OUT OF THE BLACK HILLS AT THAT TIME AND NOW CLAIM THEY HAVE BEEN HERE SINCE TIME BEGAN. THE LIEING BY THE FEDERAL GUMMIT HAS IT'S EQUAL IN THE LAKOTA WHO HAVE LIED THEIR BUTTS OFF SINCE TIME IMMEMORIAL TOO !!!

[coyote nose]

So if they are rejecting everything US are they rejecting US made innoculations? US grown food? US standard of living? US health care and hospitals? US technology, etc? Are they going to be able to go over to the Crow Indian Reservation and murder Crows like "the good old days" simply to enhance their standing in their own community?
We kicked Japans butt, Japan is better off today. We kicked Germany's butt, Germany is better off today than if the Nazis won, South Korea is a better place than North Korea, the list goes on and on. The indian nations are better off today than if they were left to their own devices. One of the best things that can happen to a people in the long run is to be defeated by the US

[DDude]

... One of the best things that can happen to a people in the long run is to be defeated by the US

Was this the original intent of the Founding Fathers? To become an imperialistic nation? To shove our way of life down the throats of others?

This mentality in my opinion is why many people around the world have a high level of disdain for America. This disdain breeds contempt and hatred. We're not doing ourselves a favor by putting our noses into the business of other sovereign nations, regardless of how crappy they may be. As far as I'm concerned, we have no moral right to dictate to Iran whether or not they can have nuclear weapons, plants or whatever. No more than we can tell Canada, Britain or France.

As a naturalized US citizen maybe I view things differently. Maybe I really appreciate the document called the Constitution more than someone who was born here and never had to really think about what it is that our Founders lived through to be able to write that document.

[J Miller]

One of the best things that can happen to a people in the long run is to be defeated by the US

Well now, that explains my situation then. I never been at war with the U.S. and lost. Yeah, that's it.


J e

[handirifle]

So, now I guess we give the south west back to Mexico, Florida to the Spaniards, and oh' yes, the rest of the country back to England, since we took it from them too.

[Blaine]

As a naturalized US citizen maybe I view things differently. Maybe I really appreciate the document called the Constitution more than someone who was born here and never had to really think about what it is that our Founders lived through to be able to write that document.

The generation before mine saved the World from Nazi/Japanese domination, and my current generation has bled and died to try to keep it that way.....don't be coming in here, Johnny Come Lately, and tell me what we're thinking and doing. 90% of the BS in the news is politics, but I'll garrenteeeee that the decent people of this country will be as one against the enemy when it becomes necessary. darn, your comment was uncalled for

[Chuck 100 yd]

We should save a lot on welfare checks that don`t need to be sent out!

[DDude]

The generation before mine saved the World from Nazi/Japanese domination, and my current generation has bled and died to try to keep it that way.....don't be coming in here, Johnny Come Lately, and tell me what we're thinking and doing. 90% of the BS in the news is politics, but I'll garrenteeeee that the decent people of this country will be as one against the enemy when it becomes necessary. darn, your comment was uncalled for

And my mother endured Hitlers troops in the Netherlands, had German troops quartered in their house while my grandfather worked in the underground trying to get Allied airmen back to their respective countries to avoid becoming POW's. My mother (now 80) still endures the affects of being a malnurished teenage girl before Holland was finally liberated by the Canadians.

And my father endured two years in a Japanese intern camp for Allied nationals when the Japanese invaded the Dutch East Indies. My father endured physical affects to the day he passed on.

Nowhere in the US Constitution does our federal government have the authority to launch interventive measures against other sovereign nations as evidenced by the current situation with regards to Iran and nuclear weapons.

You may not agree with what I have to post, but that's your choice. I call a spade a spade. Our government is pushing an agenda of "gun control" on a massive scale on another nation in the case of Iran, N. Korea, etc. As supporters of the 2A you'd think that we'd have an issue with this philosophy. Guess when it's not in our backyard we don't. I do though.

As for calling me a Johnny Come Lately, I'm hoping that wasn't a reference to the fact that I'm a naturalized US citizen? If it was (and I'll assume it was based on the quote of mine you used), then you sir have my deepest sympathy and pity. I served with honor as a military cop in USAF with a pride that no native born citizen who loves this country ever could understand.

You sir were born an American by no action on your part simply because your mother was here and this is where you cried when delivered. I on the other hand freely chose to become an American by conscious choice and decision.

I'll suspect that your understanding and comprehension of the US Constitution is lacking since it's something you take for granted. I on the other hand read it, study it and contemplate it regularly since it actually means something to me. Because it is more to me than a piece of toilet paper I want our elected government officials to obey it and follow it instead of doing whatever they want to do as they currently do.

[Rafe Covington]

What I have to say about the American Indian would get me tossed off this site, indians killed alot of my ancestors in Texas. We should have exterminated them like you would a disease, they had this land forever and all they did was kill one another. The lazy BUTTS sit around and scratch there butt and then complain because they don't have anything. The sooner they all die the better I would like it.

[moxgrove]

The US Fed has not been shy in the past about about invading those who have tried to break away. I can't see it as any different this time.