POLITICS - NRA backed Gun Control goes to the President

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 9:40 pm

Swampman wrote:I understand why you feel the way you do. I know a medicated mentally ill avid gun hobbist. He's bipolar & schizophrenic. He hears voices and frequently considers suicide. He's sweating this bill and mad at the NRA too.

Then he is not under adequate treatment.

But it's so nice of you to try to conflate my with someone like that.

Unfortunately for you, I am just a bit more stable than your average american, having been tested rather thouroughly and subsequently trusted with the "keys" to a few WMDs.

I'm more than a little upset that you and your ilk want to lump innocent people together with rapists and murderers just because you are scared of somthing you don't understand.

I know it's a lot to ask, but go look up "Judenstern". That is what this bill is advocating. They may as well get out the tatoo guns.

Swampman · Post by **Swampman** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 9:47 pm

I'm not scared of anything, because I'm not afraid of death. I served my country. I'd just like to see common sense applied to these situations. I hunger for a return to the 1950s when we lived in a great country. Common sense was common then.

Now we are so afraid of offending people, we do nothing that makes any sense.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 9:56 pm

Swampman wrote:I'm not scared of anything, because I'm not afraid of death. I served my country. I'd just like to see common sense applied to these situations. I hunger for a return to the 1950s when we lived in a great country. Common sense was common then.

Now we are so afraid of offending people, we do nothing that makes any sense.

First sensible thing you have said.

And in the 1950s anybody with $20 could order a gun from a catalogue and have it delivered by Post.

No mental health/felony check required.

If you weren't in an Institution or Jail you could have a gun. Common sense. Go back another 20 years and the same people could own a full auto... back when the 2nd Amendment meant somthing and "pro gun" organizations weren't compromising away the Rights Endowed by our Creator.

JollyWhiteGiant · Post by **JollyWhiteGiant** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 9:58 pm

Guess what happens when you go off insulin? You can go Psychotic then too.

Oh ghod, I'm so ashamed. You are right, these people have no reason to live among us.

You have no idea wht you sound like do you?

Now under your thinking I can go off and start making all kinds of nasty comments about you as diabitis is a problem in my wifes family and my grandfather suffers from it. You do not go nuts when you don't take your insulin.

Old Time Hunter · Post by **Old Time Hunter** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 10:13 pm

Didn't the old Soviet Union put civil dissidents into the catagory of "mentally ill"? They claimed that the people who espoused civil liberties and democratic ideals must be nuts. Makes me wonder who makes the decision over here whether or not someone is classified as mentally incompetent. Guess what I am trying to say is that if a social deviant in the old USSR was mentally unstable, is a social deviant in the USA mentally unstable too? Pretty easy step to disarm those that don't agree with your version of society, isn't it?

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 10:25 pm

JollyWhiteGiant wrote:
Guess what happens when you go off insulin? You can go Psychotic then too.

Oh ghod, I'm so ashamed. You are right, these people have no reason to live among us.

You have no idea wht you sound like do you?
Now under your thinking I can go off and start making all kinds of nasty comments about you as diabitis is a problem in my wifes family and my grandfather suffers from it. You do not go nuts when you don't take your insulin.

Note that I said that you CAN go psychotic when off Insulin. It's a side-effect of ketoacidosis and is similar to alcohol induced psychosis.

But you knew that, didn't you...

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 10:31 pm

TopCauses of Psychotic Behaviour:
The following medical conditions are some of the possible causes of Psychotic Behaviour. There are likely to be other possible causes, so ask your doctor about your symptoms.

See also delusions, hallucinations, disorganization
Alcohol withdrawl (see Alcohol use)
Drug Use
Head Injury
Dementia
Huntington's Disease
Brain tumour
Brain abscess
Syphilis
Multiple Sclerosis
Stroke
AIDS
Diabetic Ketoacidosis
Dehydration
Meningitis
Pneumonia
Schizophrenia
Depression
Bipolar disorder
Obsessive compulsive disorder
Postpartum depression
Delerium
Dementia
Stress
Sleep deprivation
Following an operation
Organic disorders
Alcohol withdrawal syndrome
Cerebral hypoxia
Nutritional disorders

Definitions of Diabetic Ketoacidosis:

Complication of diabetes resulting from severe insulin deficiency coupled with an absolute or relative increase in glucagon concentration; metabolic acidosis is caused by the breakdown of adipose stores and resulting increased levels of free fatty acids; glucagon accelerates the oxidation of the free fatty acids producing excess ketone bodies (ketosis). - (Source - Diseases Database)
Acidosis with an accumulation of ketone bodies; occurs primarily in diabetes mellitus - (Source - WordNet 2.1)

Back to you...

JollyWhiteGiant · Post by **JollyWhiteGiant** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 10:34 pm

Do you have any idea how dumb that statement is? If they don't take their insulin any psychosis is going to be the least of their troubles.

[/quote]delusions, hallucinations, disorganization [quote]

Have you ever seen a diabetic like this? I have. not a pretty sight. them hurting someone is not a likely thing to happen.

I am finished haveing a war of whits with an unarmend person. good day to you.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 10:38 pm

JollyWhiteGiant wrote:Do you have any idea how dumb that statement is? If they don't take theri insulin any psychosis is going to be the least of their troubles.

I am finished fighting a war of whits with an unarmed person. Good day to you.

Of course, none of this has been predicated upon the individual psychyotic's troubles, but what they may do to others while psychotic. The cause should be immaterial.

The point remains that be it neurochemical disorder or diabetes, one can go psychotic if one goes off the prescribed medication.

The question remains whether that is sufficient cause to disarm both innocent people AND their families.

The 2nd Amendment to the Constitution, the Higest Law in the land, says NO.

DDude · Post by **DDude** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 10:42 pm

Old Time Hunter wrote:Didn't the old Soviet Union put civil dissidents into the catagory of "mentally ill"? They claimed that the people who espoused civil liberties and democratic ideals must be nuts. Makes me wonder who makes the decision over here whether or not someone is classified as mentally incompetent. Guess what I am trying to say is that if a social deviant in the old USSR was mentally unstable, is a social deviant in the USA mentally unstable too? Pretty easy step to disarm those that don't agree with your version of society, isn't it?

With the VT shooting the bolded portion of your statement appears to be the anti-2As next best approach since we all apparently want "stable" citizens living amongst us.

As far as I'm concerned, if you're not sitting behind bars you're entitled to the God given right to bare arms which our founding fathers reaffirmed in the 2nd Amendment. Each and every law from the municipal level on up to the federal level is an infringement on this right given to us by our Creator.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 10:45 pm

DDude wrote:...As far as I'm concerned, if you're not sitting behind bars you're entitled to the God given right to bare arms which our founding fathers reaffirmed in the 2nd Amendment. Each and every law from the municipal level on up to the federal level is an infringement on this right given to us by our Creator.

Some people just don't want to give up their delusions of being in control...

Thank you for studying and understanding what the Constitution, and this Country, is supposed to be all about.

mac45 · Post by **mac45** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 10:59 pm

Been at work all day and couldn't post, so here goes.
It's really very simple. This is a bad law. It was passed to make bunny huggers feel warm and fuzzy. While I usually support the NRA, this is one of those times the stuck it in and broke it off.
It comes down to this....... what part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand?

If that makes me an extremist and conspiracy nut, well......so be it

Dirty Dan · Post by **Dirty Dan** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 11:00 pm

And this round goes to Old Ironsights- point, game and match. Some folks are just stubborn, can't admit a mistake, others are limp wristed whiners. It reinforces the point concerning why our rights are eroding at a rapid rate. Well said OI and way to go. Swampman and JWG, keep drinking the red punch, boys.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 11:08 pm

Dirty Dan wrote:And this round goes to Old Ironsights- point, game and match. Some folks are just stubborn, can't admit a mistake, others are limp wristed whiners. It reinforces the point concerning why our rights are eroding at a rapid rate. Well said OI and way to go. Swampman and JWG, keep drinking the red punch, boys.

I don't care about "winning the round" here. I only wish I could have won with at Congress.

I've put a year worth of "spare time" into this and people still don't get it.

Swampman · Post by **Swampman** » Sat Dec 22, 2007 5:22 am

Law or no law, I still feel that mental patients need to be in a place where they won't harm others. Remember the mom in Texas that was in the news a couple of months ago? She went off her meds, herded her 3 daughters into a closet, poured gas on them and set them on fire.

So should they just get her meds regulated and turn her loose again? This stuff is in the paper every day. They are dangerous because they go off their meds.

What about the one that drowned her 5 kids in the tub? She's just misunderstood by people who are afraid of something they don't understand?

In the 1950s if you acted crazy they locked you up. That's common sense at work. Now they just put you on dope, and turn you loose to kill again.

Tycer · Post by **Tycer** » Sat Dec 22, 2007 6:38 am

Those were both murders. Murderers should be dealt a swift and final justice.

How they came to be murderers is not relevant in regards to their rights as American citizens as defined in The Constitution.
Sad, but not relevant in that context.

When a person misuses those rights, swift action should be taken. In todays society, swift action is not taken, and has not been in two generations. I believe that is the root of the illness and anything we try to do other than return to swift action is treating only symptoms.

As we spew forth treatment of those symptoms and lay new law restricting our Constitutional rights, we are allowing the illness to spread like a cancer and consume the whole Republic until it becomes a Democracy. Where will you be placed in a Democracy? You will not have a choice.

Swampman · Post by **Swampman** » Sat Dec 22, 2007 6:56 am

Before they were murders, they were being treated for mental illness. A doctor let them go, and the doctor should be held personally liable for their actions.

We don't need a gun law, we just need to apply common sense to the treatment of the mentally ill.

We also need to stop allowing the insanity plea in these cases.

45-70marlin · Post by **45-70marlin** » Sat Dec 22, 2007 8:21 am

swampman, you are lumping all types of mental illness together.I used to work in a rehab center in the 80's and it was one of the most rewarding jobs I have ever had. You are picking out a small no. of cases that in reality coud happen to any who is not mentaly ill. When you let the government decide who is mentaly ill at some point could mean you or a member of your family. Becareful what you ask for, you might get it.

Swampman · Post by **Swampman** » Sat Dec 22, 2007 8:24 am

I want a doctor to decide, and then be held personally liable for their patients actions.

You let them out, you answer for what they do.

Leverdude · Post by **Leverdude** » Sat Dec 22, 2007 8:59 am

We also need to stop allowing the insanity plea in these cases.

That I totally agree with. Its action taken AFTER a crimes been commited.
Until a crime is commited its simply wrong to arbitrarilly remove rights.
A presumption of innocence is another right your willing to sweep under the carpet.

People will always kill people. The cases you cited werent even gun related yet you think a law keeping guns away from them would help?

We cant just take rights away based on what may happen, only what has hapenned & even then we should think real hard before removing them for life if the convict isn't going to die in jail.

Rights are rights. Theres lots of countries you can live in that dont respect them but only one that does. Or used to anyway.

DDude · Post by **DDude** » Sat Dec 22, 2007 9:20 am

Swampman wrote:I want a doctor to decide, and then be held personally liable for their patients actions.

You let them out, you answer for what they do.

How long will it take then for these doctors to move on to other areas of practice knowing that any future patient they have could result in them personally be held accountable?

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Sat Dec 22, 2007 10:08 am

Swampman wrote:Before they were murders, they were being treated for mental illness. A doctor let them go, and the doctor should be held personally liable for their actions.

Cattle Cars again. History repeats.

We don't need a gun law, we just need to apply common sense to the treatment of the mentally ill.

Ah. Your definition of common sense?

We also need to stop allowing the insanity plea in these cases.

Wow, the second sensible thing you've said.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Sat Dec 22, 2007 10:12 am

Swampman wrote:I want a doctor to decide, and then be held personally liable for their patients actions.

You do know that, by in large the Psychiatric Profession is Anti-Gun and Litigation Adverse? What better way to start a Pogrom of rabid anti-gun "adjudications".

You let them out, you answer for what they do.

Yippie. Cattle Cars again.

Or do you run a residential psychiatric facility and need to see your Numbers/Profits increase?

Dang those effective drugs. They are keeping people out of Arkham Asylum and Ms. Cratchet is getting bored.

Bah.

You still haven't explained how/why you tink you are so "experienced" with mental illness to make these absurd, bigoted declarations.

Everyone here knows EXACTLY where I am coming from and how many years I have been directly involved in fighting Bigots like you.

I Call.

Show or Fold.

Swampman · Post by **Swampman** » Sat Dec 22, 2007 8:16 pm

"How long will it take then for these doctors to move on to other areas of practice knowing that any future patient they have could result in them personally be held accountable?"

Exactly!

If a bar sells you too much to drink and you kill someone on the way home, the bar tender can be held accountable for his actions.

Same thing!

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Sat Dec 22, 2007 8:53 pm

Swampman wrote:"How long will it take then for these doctors to move on to other areas of practice knowing that any future patient they have could result in them personally be held accountable?"

Exactly!

If a bar sells you too much to drink and you kill someone on the way home, the bar tender can be held accountable for his actions.

Same thing!

Which is utterly Absurd. You Drink, You are Responsible - not the drink seller or distiller... unless you are an ambulance chasing leech.

Show or Fold.

I Call you a Bigot. Prove otherwise.

Swampman · Post by **Swampman** » Sat Dec 22, 2007 8:56 pm

Not a bigot at all. I just don't like crazy people roaming the street setting kids on fire because they aren't on the meds the doctors said they should be taking.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Sat Dec 22, 2007 9:15 pm

Swampman wrote:Not a bigot at all. I just don't like crazy people roaming the street setting kids on fire because they aren't on the meds the doctors said they should be taking.

Prove it. Bigot. Or aren't you Man enough?

This is the THIRD time I have requested you explain your "experience".

3 strikes and you are out.

Show or Fold. Bigot.

Swampman · Post by **Swampman** » Sat Dec 22, 2007 10:05 pm

I explained my experiences. You were too busy name calling to read my post. Needing to prove what anyone with any sense believes and knows to be true, doesn't make any sense. Believe what you will, I could care less.

Name calling just means you've lost the debate.

DDude · Post by **DDude** » Sat Dec 22, 2007 10:26 pm

Swampman wrote:"How long will it take then for these doctors to move on to other areas of practice knowing that any future patient they have could result in them personally be held accountable?"

Exactly!

If a bar sells you too much to drink and you kill someone on the way home, the bar tender can be held accountable for his actions.

Same thing!

The difference is that going to a bar isn't a right affirmed by the Constitution. The right to bare arms is. Drinking is also one thing that people can't seem to do without, whereas getting help for mental health care is... and without any private doctors in practice we'll be left with nothing but government "approved" (those accredited by .gov who know that they're safe from liable suits) doctors to go to.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 11:01 am

Swampman wrote:I explained my experiences. You were too busy name calling to read my post. Needing to prove what anyone with any sense believes and knows to be true, doesn't make any sense. Believe what you will, I could care less.

Name calling just means you've lost the debate.

I call them as I see them, and I call Bull on your assertion. Here is EVERY post you made. You have NOT explained your "experiences". You only posted Bigotry, Fear of the unknown and a random article from a Google search.

Swampman
Levergunner
Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 44

Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 1:10 am Post subject:

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Personally I believe anyone who needs medication to maintain their mental health, shouldn't have acess to firearms or weapons of any sort. I think they should be kept away from the general population because the second they decide they don't need meds anymore and quit taking them they kill or injure someone.

Medication isn't good enough to prevent the constant danger these people present to me and my family.

Swampman
Levergunner
Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 44

Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 1:32 am Post subject:

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I'm just tired of having to deal with people (everyday) that I really believe need to be locked up where they can't hurt someone. The doctors take people that need to be in a straight jacket, give them some pills and turn them loose on us. Of course in these last days, the inmates are running the assylum. I suppose it would be impossible to house all the insane folks I run into.

Swampman
Levergunner
Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 44

Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 1:58 am Post subject:

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I'm not afraid of anything or anyone. I just want everyone that is on meds for their mental control, locked up. The problem is that it would be about 3/4 of the population of the country.

Swampman
Levergunner
Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 44

Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 11:10 pm Post subject:

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I don't think violent felons should ever have their rights restored period.

"Neurochemical Disorders are no more or less dangerous than Diabetes."

"They are treatable, and the people recieving that treatment don't deserve to be treated like the violent criminal scum you want to think they are."

In my personal experience, I'd say you are completely wrong.

I don't want them treated like criminal scum. I want them kept away from the general population forever just as they used to (and still should)be.

Swampman
Levergunner
Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 44

Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 11:56 pm Post subject:

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After reading these post most my (almost) total lack of faith in mankind's sanity is confirmed. I will make no further comment.

Swampman
Levergunner
Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 44

Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 1:31 am Post subject:

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As far as I can tell I only stated my well studied convictions.

If I called anyone dirty names (I reviewed all my post and didn't find that to be the case) I apoligize.

Name calling is for folks who are losing a debate.

No further comment.

Swampman
Levergunner
Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 44

Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 2:06 am Post subject:

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http://www.psychlaws.org/BriefingPapers/BP8.htm

I rest my case. Public safety shouldn't depend on wheater someone is medicated, because they can go off their meds at any time. There are no controls whatsoever to ensure they are medicated daily. The state gets them medicated, and turns them loose. They quit taking the meds and kill 20-30 innocent people.

Swampman
Levergunner
Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 44

Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 2:14 am Post subject:

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Read the whole article.

When you go off insulin you go into convulsions or a coma. Not much danger there.

Swampman
Levergunner
Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 44

Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 2:34 am Post subject:

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I understand why you feel the way you do. I know a medicated mentally ill avid gun hobbist. He's bipolar & schizophrenic. He hears voices and frequently considers suicide. He's sweating this bill and mad at the NRA too.

Swampman
Levergunner
Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 44

Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 2:47 am Post subject:

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I'm not scared of anything, because I'm not afraid of death. I served my country. I'd just like to see common sense applied to these situations. I hunger for a return to the 1950s when we lived in a great country. Common sense was common then.

Now we are so afraid of offending people, we do nothing that makes any sense.

Swampman
Levergunner
Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 44

Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 10:22 am Post subject:

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Law or no law, I still feel that mental patients need to be in a place where they won't harm others. Remember the mom in Texas that was in the news a couple of months ago? She went off her meds, herded her 3 daughters into a closet, poured gas on them and set them on fire.

So should they just get her meds regulated and turn her loose again? This stuff is in the paper every day. They are dangerous because they go off their meds.

What about the one that drowned her 5 kids in the tub? She's just misunderstood by people who are afraid of something they don't understand?

In the 1950s if you acted crazy they locked you up. That's common sense at work. Now they just put you on dope, and turn you loose to kill again.

Swampman
Levergunner
Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 44

Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 11:56 am Post subject:

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Before they were murders, they were being treated for mental illness. A doctor let them go, and the doctor should be held personally liable for their actions.

We don't need a gun law, we just need to apply common sense to the treatment of the mentally ill.

We also need to stop allowing the insanity plea in these cases.

Swampman
Levergunner
Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 44

Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 1:24 pm Post subject:

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I want a doctor to decide, and then be held personally liable for their patients actions.

You let them out, you answer for what they do.

Swampman
Levergunner
Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 44

Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 1:16 am Post subject:

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"How long will it take then for these doctors to move on to other areas of practice knowing that any future patient they have could result in them personally be held accountable?"

Exactly!

If a bar sells you too much to drink and you kill someone on the way home, the bar tender can be held accountable for his actions.

Same thing!

Swampman
Levergunner
Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 44

Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 1:56 am Post subject:

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Not a bigot at all. I just don't like crazy people roaming the street setting kids on fire because they aren't on the meds the doctors said they should be taking.

Swampman
Levergunner
Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 44

Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 3:05 am Post subject:

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I explained my experiences. You were too busy name calling to read my post. Needing to prove what anyone with any sense believes and knows to be true, doesn't make any sense. Believe what you will, I could care less.

Name calling just means you've lost the debate.

I've lost nothing because you haven't debated. You are a Bigot. Plain and simple.

Who gets the next Tattoo?

Sig Heil.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 1:41 pm

I should know better than to butt in, but: Old Ironsides, you're upset and perhaps rightly so, as are all of us. Turning on your own won't do ya a bit of good right now....Dang, Friend, calm down amongst your allies.