OT - Standard issue type AR15s what to look and ask for

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 11:28 am

I didn't want to hijack jnyork's thread but Hobie made a good point when he mentioned the upcoming elections and that maybe now would be a good time to pick up a black gun.

Now that got me to thinking. I don't care for the topless AR types that use the pickytinny rail thing at all. I don't need attachment points for lazers, flash lights, grenade launchers, satellite tracking devices, toilet paper rolls, and all the other bulls ....... 'er stuff they hang on them now adays.

If I were to get one I'd want one as close to the original M-16 / AR-15 as I could get. Right down to the bayonet lugs too. I will not buy a foreign copy, and I'm not willing to build my own.

So what do I look for? Or does anybody make the original style any more?

Joe

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 11:56 am

Joe, most manufacturers make what you are looking for. It's the A2, or civilian version of the M-16A2. Standard trapdoor buttstock with cleaning kit, carry handle with A2 elevation and windage adjustable sights, 20in 1in7 5.56 chrome lined barrel, flash hider and bayonet lug.

Should be able to order one from DPMS or Rock River Arms through your local dealer for around $800 NIB. You can get a Colt, but you'll pay through the nose and won't get any better of a rifle.

Make sure you get the 1in7 5.56 chrome lined barrel, not a 1in9 .223. Reason being, 5.56 milsurp ammo is not safe in the shorter throated .223 chamber and it overpressures and can cause a KB.

GoatGuy · Post by **GoatGuy** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 11:56 am

J - Colt, Rock River Arms, and possibly others I'm not really familiar with. Look for those with 5.56 NATO chambering either 1/7 or 1/9 twist. 1/7 will handle the heaviest bullets available, but 1/9 is a very good compromise. - GoatGuy

WHELENATOR · Post by **WHELENATOR** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:01 pm

Joe, AR-15's are neat weapons, and surprisingly accurate. I don't want to try and change your mind...well, yes I do too. AR's configured with the flattop, IE without carry handle, are much more versatile than a standard "A2" configuration. Meaning one with carry handle permanently attached. And really they aren't any more expensive. With the ability to remove the handle, you will be able to top your AR with any scope you see fit. Red dots are getting cheaper all the time, yet there are some that cost more than the rifles! Sooner or later, your eyesight won't be so clear, and you MAY want to top it with some sort of optic. They do help you MOST of the time in getting a clearer sight picture, and if a regular scope, will help acquire a target better. I don't know about you, but I shoot far better with a scope. Not to say an AR is any better or worse with or without it, but the flattop at least gives you the OPTION.
As for what to look for, I would suggest a Bushmaster, Rock River, DPMS, and for those with more dough, Wilson Combat and Les Baer makes fine guns too. I think the new Stag Arms ones are ok too, but I haven't personally messed with one. I own a 16 inch Bushmaster personally, and it shoots 1/4 inch groups on good days, and 1 inch consistently. Good luck sir!

I also meant to tell you about the 1:9 twist rate but looks like some of the other guys mentioned that. All of the brands I mentioned make chrome lined bores, they clean so much more easily, especially when you burn a couple hundred rounds in say 3 minutes! I just bought one of the Chip Mccormick modular triggers for myBushmaster, and the wife won't let me open it til Christmas, so I don't know how it works yet, but in a couple weeks. If you get a Rock river, the triggers in them are esceptional for a semiautomatic rifle. I have tried a few of them here at my local dealer, and they are darn good. My Bushmaster leaves a bit to be disired, but still shoots very well. that's with my V-max Hornady handloads though, and I have barely shot mine with factory. I have fired some of the various ball ammo available and it functions great with all except Wolf. My gun doesn't like it much. My Bushmaster likes 55 grain V-max, and 60 Gr V-max's just as well. I use the 60's mostly now since I might get a chance at a wolf up here. The 60's are a bit tougher. 27, or 25 grains of 748 for those 2 rounds. 25 for the 60, and 27 for the 55.
It doesn't really mattter too much about hand guards, or stocks, as the market is well saturated with nearly every configuration you could ever imagine. The A2 is the basic one you see in all the pics, unless the guy is sporting an M4, which has a telescoping stock. I hate those, mainly because they are so uncomfortable to shoot. Anyway, I have spouted enough, but I wanted to tell you a bit about the AR.

Post by **Hobie** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:20 pm

I believe I'll get one with the Picatinny rail. I only wish the collapsable buttstocks were still made of aluminum like my old one.

But that gun didn't have the forward assist (it did have a Colt 3X scope).

kasTX · Post by **kasTX** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:24 pm

+1 on the A3 or flat-top upper receiver. As stated above, you have the option of using the handle or something else like a scope.

Floating around out there somewhere is "the dreaded chart" that was put together to show the differences in construction between the various manufacturers. Apparently Colt builds to the full mil-spec, and the others do so only partly. I'm not sure if that matters, but some people get all wound up about it.

I have a Bushmaster and it is a fantastic shooter with handloads. It had some feeding issues right from the factory, but they handled it under warranty and it has been 100% since then, with all different kinds of loads.

Post by **Hobie** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:27 pm

Another critical item is to get good magazines (as with any other auto-loader). MOST military mags are ok but we had a bunch from _____ (began with "P", darn CRS) that were not so good.

Also, I want a bore bigger than .224 but smaller than .358. I've been debating .300 Whisper, 6.8mm SPC, and ?. The Grendel doesn't quite do it for me. Am I off-base?

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:41 pm

Hobie wrote: The Grendel doesn't quite do it for me. Am I off-base?

Yes, you are Hobie.

The Grendal is much superior to the 6.8. The Grendal is also ballisically equivelent to the .308, and in some cases better. It uses a 7.62x39 case that is straightened then necked to .264, which means it uses a common case, and a common bolt face. The 6.8 uses the obsolete .30 Rem case and a special bolt. Also, Wolf ammunition makes 6.5 Grendel, and it's a lot cheaper than 6.8.

Something else Hobie. I did some research, and at 400yrds the 75-77gr .224 bullets from the 5.56 are almost equal to the 6.8. After that the heavy .224's start to surpass it.

No matter how you want to look at it, the Grendal is superior in every way except diameter, and some would argue the .264 caliber is ballistically perfect.

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:41 pm

When we were shopping for my son's rifle someone told us to remember your A,B,C's in that order. Armalite, Bushmaster, and Colt. After reading Jeff Quinn's article he got a Bushy. No problems with it here. Magazines do make a difference and they ain't a buck a piece any more, dang it! back in the 70's a buddy of mine used to bring me magazines by the case. It seems they'd come in from exercises and everyone would just throw them in the dumpster. Nobody cared.
I'd stick with the standard 20" barrel as well. shorter than that and you'll drop velocity pretty fast IMHO. The efficiency of the .223 lies in it's velocity.

Rusty <><

WHELENATOR · Post by **WHELENATOR** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 1:13 pm

Hobie, I don't think your too far off though. It's true that the 6.5 Grendal is better ballistically speaking, but how prevalent is it, and how easy is it to get ammunition for? I am not knocking it, just saying to do some research before you buy, which you are. I slightly disagree about the 6.8 being made from an obsolete case. They used the 30 Rem to design the case, but that doesn't mean you have to scrounge up some 30 remington cases just to load for your 6.8. Remington, and at least 3 others make brass for that, so it's not that difficult to get stuff for. YET. I think personally that the 6.8 is gonna sort of pass by the wayside in the next 3 years. Ihere isn't a good following, and not enough ammo makers have jumped on board to ensure it's longevity. I am not sure how much of a following the grendal has, but I won't say anything negative about it, because I have seen it shoot up here. it's flat and accurate in the right rifle. I would like to see it stay around, the Grendal also. They are great rounds and are far better personnel rounds than the 223 ever was.
I sort of forgot about the Armalites, but they are good solid rifles. you can't go wrong with about any of the mainstream guns. All these guys are right about magazines. Most of the contractors are ok, some better. i have a LOT of magazines, somthing like 60 or so. They are stamped with all sorts of names. they are all ex-military surplus ones. I also have a good supply of 1972 model, new in the bag, COLT 20 rounders. they are awesome and have an aluminum follower. they work great. i always prefer to hunt with 10 or 20 rounders, as I don't like a 30 rounder sticking down too low. i have 2 of the Bushmaster 20 rounders with PMAG followers in them, and they are oerfect as you can ask for. Those aren't spendy either.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 1:43 pm

WHELENATOR wrote:Hobie, I don't think your too far off though. It's true that the 6.5 Grendal is better ballistically speaking, but how prevalent is it, and how easy is it to get ammunition for?

Does the fact it uses the 7.62x39 case (easily the most manufactured case in the world) and it's made by the largest ammunition manufacturer in the East Europe mean anything?

I think personally that the 6.8 is gonna sort of pass by the wayside in the next 3 years. .

The Special Ops community supports your thoughts. The Spec Ops community has unpoliticized latitude in choosing weapons and ammunition. After thorough battlefeild testing they have decided it gave no advantage over the 5.56. This is because battle feild tests proved that whether or not it "hit harder" multiple hits are still the name of the game, and when you have more rounds available, you have more hits available. This coupled with more recoil made it unfavorable by those who would be using it if adopted, and again, they had full latitude to do so if they wished.

Fact is, if they need a medium range round, the 77gr MK262 is becoming very widely used in Special Operations, and I expect to see it used even more widely, long before a caliber change. This round was designed for the Special Purpose Rifle for SEAL and SF snipers. It uses an 18 in barrel, and long range ballistics are very good with the Black Hills loaded Sierra 77gr BTHP being used, way better than the 62gr M855. You can read more about it at Wicki here (for those who think I may be giving away National Secrets

). It shoots flatter than the 6.8 and is very close in energy. Close enough that a complete caliber and weapon change is not warranted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Sta ... pose_Rifle

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 1:56 pm

My M4gery is a Bushmaster with a regular Post front/gasblock and a flattop with carry handle.

I doubt I'll ever remove the carry handle, but it's nice to know I CAN if somthing really cool comes along to go up there.

As it stands, using cheap Rem green-box FMJ .223s it's annoyingly accurate out to as far as I want to aim with the Mil Peep & Post sights.

I really don't take great pleasure in punching quarter sized groups in paper, so what's the point in shooting it? (edit - I WOULD like to go Varminting with it sometime... prairie dogs & 'yotes...)

Nice to keep around though.

As for wanting an M16-A2 configuration... Why? The Collapsing stock is far more handy and the longer barrel doesn't help accuracy all that much. Besides, Smaller is better - I can pack an my whole Combat Load into a small gun case...

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 2:59 pm

20 inch barrel vs 16 inch barrel isn't going match if any different. Remeber though in combat a handgun held out at arms length will be about the same distance as a 20 inch AR. Me, I'd go with 16 inch barrel just cause.

Here's what I'm considering.
http://www.rockriverarms.com/item-detai ... N=39435921

Johnny

Idahoser · Post by **Idahoser** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 3:06 pm

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 4:04 pm

According to all the tecs at barrel, bullet and powder manufactuers the .223/5.56 gets about 25fps per inch in that 14-24" range, so from 16-24 you get 100fps. Some might call that important, others might not.

There is however one major advantage the rifle length gas system has over the carbine length, and that heat. The shorter gas tube vents a lot more heat into the bolt and chamber, making for a lot more carbon buildup, which is the enemy of Stoner gas impingment system. Every failure I've ever had including in BCT last year was due to carbon buildup in the chamber.

Therefore, if you absolutely have to have a shorter rifle, and it's your only one, build one using a 16" barrel and the rifle length gas system. Most barrel manufacturers carry these in stock.

I'm personally becoming more and more in favor of the 18" SPR with rifle lenght gas system.

cnjarvis · Post by **cnjarvis** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 4:08 pm

Take a look here: http://www.ar15.com/forums/board.html?b=3

I have a bushy M4 that I love. I may (if I can afford it) pick up a DCM version soon after the first of the year for the same reason you're looking.

Rock River has an excellent reputation but I understand that they have LONG lead times.

If I were buying I'd follow the ABC's: Armalite, Bushmaster, Colt with Rock River thrown in there if I didn't have to wait forever.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 4:40 pm

sore shoulder wrote:According to all the tecs at barrel, bullet and powder manufactuers the .223/5.56 gets about 25fps per inch in that 14-24" range, so from 16-24 you get 100fps. Some might call that important, others might not.

There is however one major advantage the rifle length gas system has over the carbine length, and that heat. The shorter gas tube vents a lot more heat into the bolt and chamber, making for a lot more carbon buildup, which is the enemy of Stoner gas impingment system. Every failure I've ever had including in BCT last year was due to carbon buildup in the chamber.

Therefore, if you absolutely have to have a shorter rifle, and it's your only one, build one using a 16" barrel and the rifle length gas system. Most barrel manufacturers carry these in stock.

I'm personally becoming more and more in favor of the 18" SPR with rifle lenght gas system.

Actually, if there is anything I would do to my M4 it would be to replace the GI system with a Piston/tappet system. Drop-in kits are available for about $400 - but I don't shoot it enough to justify it.

Another thing to consider...

Doesn't matter what you buy - if you can buy the Lower FTF and avoid the 4473 you can BUILD whatever else you want... without the nice paper trail...

Haycock · Post by **Haycock** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 5:11 pm

J Miller wrote:I didn't want to hijack jnyork's thread but Hobie made a good point when he mentioned the upcoming elections and that maybe now would be a good time to pick up a black gun.

You guys seriously think that we're gonna lose access to these if we end up with a Democrat in office? I'm expecting the reverse situation, where the Supreme Court upholds our rights and pushes back on the anti tide...

salvo · Post by **salvo** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 5:21 pm

cnjarvis wrote:Take a look here: http://www.ar15.com/forums/board.html?b=3

I have a bushy M4 that I love. I may (if I can afford it) pick up a DCM version soon after the first of the year for the same reason you're looking.

Rock River has an excellent reputation but I understand that they have LONG lead times.

If I were buying I'd follow the ABC's: Armalite, Bushmaster, Colt with Rock River thrown in there if I didn't have to wait forever.

I went with the Bushmaster DCM first, then I bought a Bushmaster 16" flat top upper. It was like having two guns, after a wile though I ended up buying another lower for the 16" upper.
cnjarvis, the DCM is very heavy, especially with the but stock lead.
My DCM was post ban configured, I threaded the barrel and added the front sight post with bayo lug after the AWB sunsetted.

I agree, if you don't have one, do what you can to get one wile you can. I hate to think that way but the gun grabbers have perfected there art. The next AWB that comes down the road probably wont have a sunset clause in it and post ban features probably wont mean squat.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 5:22 pm

Haycock wrote:
J Miller wrote:I didn't want to hijack jnyork's thread but Hobie made a good point when he mentioned the upcoming elections and that maybe now would be a good time to pick up a black gun.
You guys seriously think that we're gonna lose access to these if we end up with a Democrat in office? I'm expecting the reverse situation, where the Supreme Court upholds our rights and pushes back on the anti tide...

Yes if the democrats get the presidency I sincerely believe we will see more anti gun laws in the first month than we've seen in the last 8 years. And most if not all will be signed into law.

As for the SCOTUS ruling for the 2nd I can only hope so. But even if they do, I doubt it will stop the anti gunners from their attacks against us.

Now, please tell me what "DCM" is. I've read these initials a zillion times and still don't know what it is.

Joe

salvo · Post by **salvo** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 5:46 pm

Joe, it stands for Dept of Civilian Marksmanship. The DCM guns are set up for long range competition. Finer adjustments on the sights, heavy slow twist barrels for heavier bullets. trigger jobs, fitted bolts and lead in the but stock.
You don't want to be packing one around, they are heavy!
But they do look just like a standard A2 configuration.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:40 pm

salvo wrote:Joe, it stands for Dept of Civilian Marksmanship. The DCM guns are set up for long range competition. Finer adjustments on the sights, heavy slow twist barrels for heavier bullets. trigger jobs, fitted bolts and lead in the but stock.
You don't want to be packing one around, they are heavy!
But they do look just like a standard A2 configuration.

Actually they are fast twist, since most of those DCM guys are shooting 68-77gr match bullets. Anything over 70gr requires a minimum 1/8, and the 75-77 do best in a 1/7. Slow twist is for the lightweight varmit bullets.

I use one for yote hunting with a 4x scope on a ARMS mount and bipod, and I pack it all the time, it aint that much heavier than my issue M-16 without the scope and bipod. They're just thicker under the handgaurds. Some of them have a stealth full float tube that still allows use of the issue handgaurds.

WHELENATOR · Post by **WHELENATOR** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:53 pm

sore shoulder wrote:
WHELENATOR wrote:Hobie, I don't think your too far off though. It's true that the 6.5 Grendal is better ballistically speaking, but how prevalent is it, and how easy is it to get ammunition for?
Does the fact it uses the 7.62x39 case (easily the most manufactured case in the world) and it's made by the largest ammunition manufacturer in the East Europe mean anything?
I think personally that the 6.8 is gonna sort of pass by the wayside in the next 3 years. .
The Special Ops community supports your thoughts. The Spec Ops community has unpoliticized latitude in choosing weapons and ammunition. After thorough battlefeild testing they have decided it gave no advantage over the 5.56. This is because battle feild tests proved that whether or not it "hit harder" multiple hits are still the name of the game, and when you have more rounds available, you have more hits available. This coupled with more recoil made it unfavorable by those who would be using it if adopted, and again, they had full latitude to do so if they wished.

Fact is, if they need a medium range round, the 77gr MK262 is becoming very widely used in Special Operations, and I expect to see it used even more widely, long before a caliber change. This round was designed for the Special Purpose Rifle for SEAL and SF snipers. It uses an 18 in barrel, and long range ballistics are very good with the Black Hills loaded Sierra 77gr BTHP being used, way better than the 62gr M855. You can read more about it at Wicki here (for those who think I may be giving away National Secrets ). It shoots flatter than the 6.8 and is very close in energy. Close enough that a complete caliber and weapon change is not warranted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Sta ... pose_Rifle

Sore Shoulder, sorry if I sounded like I was hacking at the Grendal. i just meant to imply I personally don't know too much about it and were it me buying, I would want to double check the ammo or brass availability. Your right about the SF community, they do have a lot of leeway as to equipment. I personally just like the idea of a 6.8 in the AR platform, mostly because it's SEEMS a little better in my thoughts for deer and larger predators like wolves and coyotes. I also agree that the 77 Gr Sierra is a good compromise for our troops. I happen to know that Black Hills can't make enough of that load to send to our guys.
If it was me hitting the sand I would wish and want for a Springfield Socom with my choice of several optics for it. Now that's a hard hitter for 2 legged critters...

Post by **Hobie** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 7:02 pm

Haycock wrote:
J Miller wrote:I didn't want to hijack jnyork's thread but Hobie made a good point when he mentioned the upcoming elections and that maybe now would be a good time to pick up a black gun.
You guys seriously think that we're gonna lose access to these if we end up with a Democrat in office? I'm expecting the reverse situation, where the Supreme Court upholds our rights and pushes back on the anti tide...

I am too cynical, too old, and not naive enough to EXPECT that. Oh, I'd be appreciative but...

In any case, the Dem possibles we see now would do something like CA where they ban ammo instead. Then we'd have to wait for that to wend its way through their courts...

Post by **Hobie** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 7:07 pm

I'll have to do more research on the Grendal (sp?) vs the .22 Highpower type 77 gr. bullets. One possible consideration is that the .22 is NOT deer legal in this state. However, ammo availability might trump that.

I've some experience with the system having been a pseudo unit armorer for many years.

User45 was giving me some info off-line as well. He's a dealer in Richmond.

I used to use even the 70 gr. Speer (IIRC) which is a SP FB bullet in my old carbine with good accuracy. But those VLD designs would likely not have worked with my early model's twist rate.

salvo · Post by **salvo** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 7:34 pm

sore shoulder wrote:
salvo wrote:Joe, it stands for Dept of Civilian Marksmanship. The DCM guns are set up for long range competition. Finer adjustments on the sights, heavy slow twist barrels for heavier bullets. trigger jobs, fitted bolts and lead in the but stock.
You don't want to be packing one around, they are heavy!
But they do look just like a standard A2 configuration.
Actually they are fast twist, since most of those DCM guys are shooting 68-77gr match bullets. Anything over 70gr requires a minimum 1/8, and the 75-77 do best in a 1/7. Slow twist is for the lightweight varmit bullets.

I use one for yote hunting with a 4x scope on a ARMS mount and bipod, and I pack it all the time, it aint that much heavier than my issue M-16 without the scope and bipod. They're just thicker under the handgaurds. Some of them have a stealth full float tube that still allows use of the issue handgaurds.

Thanks for the correction sore shoulder

I forgot about the free floating handaurd too.
Mine just seems to heavy for other than range/competition use, if I lighten it up by taking out the lead in the butt stock it becomes to nose heavy.
Guess I better start working out again, I must be getting soft

Haycock · Post by **Haycock** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:50 pm

Hobie wrote:
Haycock wrote:
J Miller wrote:I didn't want to hijack jnyork's thread but Hobie made a good point when he mentioned the upcoming elections and that maybe now would be a good time to pick up a black gun.
You guys seriously think that we're gonna lose access to these if we end up with a Democrat in office? I'm expecting the reverse situation, where the Supreme Court upholds our rights and pushes back on the anti tide...
I am too cynical, too old, and not naive enough to EXPECT that. Oh, I'd be appreciative but...

In any case, the Dem possibles we see now would do something like CA where they ban ammo instead. Then we'd have to wait for that to wend its way through their courts...

Okay.... maybe that is a naive expectation... but I just have a hard time seeing how it'll come down any other way... the implications of a decision in favor of D.C. would have consequences for all Constitutional jurisprudence that would take us in a very, very nasty direction and my perception of this court is that the majority of them will see it that way.

Or.... maybe I'm just an optimist.... if this decision goes the other way then I'll start being jaded...

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 9:52 pm

Hobie wrote:I'll have to do more research on the Grendal (sp?) vs the .22 Highpower type 77 gr. bullets. One possible consideration is that the .22 is NOT deer legal in this state. However, ammo availability might trump that.

I've some experience with the system having been a pseudo unit armorer for many years.

User45 was giving me some info off-line as well. He's a dealer in Richmond.

I used to use even the 70 gr. Speer (IIRC) which is a SP FB bullet in my old carbine with good accuracy. But those VLD designs would likely not have worked with my early model's twist rate.

Gotta love Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6.5_Grendel

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 9:56 pm

Here is a link to a PDF comparing the Grendel with 5.56, 6.8, and 7.62 NATO.

http://www.65grendel.com/graphics/grendelballistics.pdf

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 10:00 pm

Hobie, as far as your statement about commonality of parts, that is exactly why I have not done a 6.8. I can get Pravi 75gr BTHP match for under $8 a box of 20, or reman Black Hills 77gr when its available for about the same price, and I dont have to switch caliber. The only reason I have even considered anything else is for hunting, and thats why I like the Grendel. However, I have hunting rifles that outperform any of them, so it becomes a moot point. However it's fun contemplating.

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 11:04 pm

I was in the doctor's office a few months ago and saw an article in Outdoor Life Magazine about the AR-15 platform. the shooter was using it with a .280 Rem for deer.

Rusty <><

user45 · Post by **user45** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 11:21 pm

Greetings.

First, reconsider building your own, if my wife can do it you can. She started with a Bushmaster stripped lower, added a DPMS LPK, then a RRA 16" A2 Carbine upper. You can build the gun you want, and learn a bunch in the process.

I would also recommend go with the flat-top upper, it's easier to add a removable carry handle or even BUIS then it is to swap up the upper receiver. Go with the flat-top upper, you may not want optics now, but to be honest, the AR15 is meant to have optics on it, and it's just a better rifle with optics. Quick and easy to get on target and score a hit, and also just darn fun.

The AR15 platform is so modular and so many folks are selling stuff for them (me included) that your only limited by your wallet. You can have a match rifle, deadly ground hog slayer, or a serious 3-gun carbine all built off the same basic lower receiver.

As far are brands, well to be honest, there are many folks selling rifles and parts today. Some are top tier like LMT in your home state, some are consumer class, like Rock River Arms, also in you home state, who btw, don't actually make any of their own parts. That said though they do sell an excellent product.

I've sold just about every manufacter's AR rifle, stripped lower, upper, new fangle quad rail with more gizmo attachment points they you'll ever need and I'll tell you this, in the 700 to 1000 price range, the guns are all about the same. IMHO, I personally like Bushmaster, LMT, and Colt LEO on the high end and RRA, Stag, S&W, and Armalite, in the consumer range. The big differences are in the finishes and quality of the forgings. And even there there are only really a few folks making lowers, the majority of companies are using the same forgings. All very good guns for the money. I'd say 80% of my AR15 sales are either Bushmaster or RRA for complete guns. I sell more stripped lowers then anything else, and for the most part they are all very close to each other. The AR15 crowd goes through phases driven mostly by Internet BS, so keeping up with it all is a job. My wife's AR15 part's gun has over 5K rounds through it, and other then a barrel change (change to a lightwieght contour) it's still going strong and is very accurate. I used to be really into the black rifles, and 10 years ago you couldn't have told me there was any other rifle out there.....until I found my first 1886 Winchester in 45-70. I rarely shoot my Blackrifle's anymore other then LEO demo's or shoot's with my wife, most people in the AR crowd know me as the black rifle dealer that brings cowboy guns to a machinegun shoot.

I do like 9mm subguns though, but that has to do with the price of ammo

And I just love to watch my wife shoot a suppressed sheet metal black rifle...too fun.

As mentioned earlier also, get quality magazines, they aren't that expensive and are an integral part of the whole system.

Hobie, I can get you aluminum 2 or 4 position collapsible buttstock just like you had back in the day.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 11:21 pm

Rusty wrote:I was in the doctor's office a few months ago and saw an article in Outdoor Life Magazine about the AR-15 platform. the shooter was using it with a .280 Rem for deer.

Rusty <><

Isn't the .280 a .308 based case? I'm thinking it was an AR10 platform.

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 11:32 pm

Hobie,
Here's your answer. I just went to the S&W web page. They have a deal now on the M&P15 they have. If you buy the rifle they'll sell you a Sigma Pistol for $99.

Rusty <><

H_Talon · Post by **H_Talon** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 11:34 pm

the guys @ ar15.com will help you out .. but ...

building is a good thing too ... here is mine ...

it's a bushmaster lower and POF piston upper ... over a 1000 rounds and the only dirt is some smuge on the bolt face ... so cool !!!!!!!

you can check out ar15barrels.com for different calibers on the ar
platform.

don't rule out flat tops and rails .. front hand grips help with control,
and bad guys don't just come out in the day time .. lights can be good .

H_Talon ..

oh ... as much as I like my AR .... I'll take a levergun any day ..
they make great urban rifles, and LEs don't have the same heartburn
over them ... I just hope we don't com out on the short end of the
stick when the supreme court is done with us

jengel · Post by **jengel** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:21 am

Within the first year or so after I start at the gun shop, I would like to get a 6.8 SPC rifle (I like the .277 bullet). I have looked around and I can't find one that has a flat top gas block.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:22 am

AR's are like Leggo's for adults. They are that easy to build. The home builder market is very well supported.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:26 am

H_Talon wrote:...
oh ... as much as I like my AR .... I'll take a levergun any day ..
they make great urban rifles, and LEs don't have the same heartburn
over them ... I just hope we don't com out on the short end of the
stick when the supreme court is done with us

+1

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:25 pm

Old Ironsights wrote:
H_Talon wrote:...
oh ... as much as I like my AR .... I'll take a levergun any day ..
they make great urban rifles, and LEs don't have the same heartburn
over them ... I just hope we don't com out on the short end of the
stick when the supreme court is done with us
+1

I like levers, but I would not say they were a great urban defence arm. Maybe good, but only because something is better than nothing. I know all about whats-his-name and his performance at Thunder Ranch, but that was a stunt pure and simple, and if he had put as much training into using a semi-auto he would have done 100% better. Reason is because certain firing positions greatly inhibit lever operation, there is more recoil, ammo is harder to carry and reload, and there is no way you can lay down suppresive fire as fast, nor controlled pairs and follow up shots.

I really dont care what gives an LE's heartburn. Not one bit. And neither should anyone else. The fact that some do only tells me they have compromised. Compromise only hurts the rest of us.

Warhawk · Post by **Warhawk** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 3:27 pm

It's going to be nearly impossible to beat the deals that CMMG is offering on it's bargain bin AR's

http://cmmginc.secure-mall.com/shop/?sh ... 04&cat=33&

CMMG is a great outfit to do business with, and the bargain bin rifles have gotten high praise over on http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=2&f=145&t=157147

gregg · Post by **gregg** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 9:00 pm

Warhawk wrote:It's going to be nearly impossible to beat the deals that CMMG is offering on it's bargain bin AR's

http://cmmginc.secure-mall.com/shop/?sh ... 04&cat=33&

CMMG is a great outfit to do business with, and the bargain bin rifles have gotten high praise over on http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=2&f=145&t=157147

http://cmmginc.secure-mall.com/shop/?sh ... 46f984cbae
Nice guys . I think thay have a good rifle.
I just bought a S&W MP-15 . TO pick it up Monday . MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ME

65 in 25-20 · Post by **65 in 25-20** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 9:14 pm

Well if you want something close to the original pick up an old Colt SP1. They are my favorite of all the different models ever made & I have had many over the years. Accurate, reliable & they don't have all of that "tacticool" stuff hanging on them.

1/12 twist barrel is the best for the 55gr boollits, sounds like you're just wanting a plinker anyway so you probably won't be shooting any heavier rounds.

There are several on gunbroker.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/SearchResults.asp

Post by **Hobie** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 9:20 pm

sore shoulder wrote:Hobie, as far as your statement about commonality of parts, that is exactly why I have not done a 6.8. I can get Pravi 75gr BTHP match for under $8 a box of 20, or reman Black Hills 77gr when its available for about the same price, and I dont have to switch caliber. The only reason I have even considered anything else is for hunting, and thats why I like the Grendel. However, I have hunting rifles that outperform any of them, so it becomes a moot point. However it's fun contemplating.

Yeah, it isn't as if I need ANOTHER deer rifle...

77 gr. bullets available for handloading? As you might expect I've a few pieces of brass.

Post by **Hobie** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 9:29 pm

user45 wrote:Hobie, I can get you aluminum 2 or 4 position collapsible buttstock just like you had back in the day.

I'm going to have to take you up on that!

Hope you had a good shoot this past weekend!

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:57 pm

Hobie wrote:
sore shoulder wrote:Hobie, as far as your statement about commonality of parts, that is exactly why I have not done a 6.8. I can get Pravi 75gr BTHP match for under $8 a box of 20, or reman Black Hills 77gr when its available for about the same price, and I dont have to switch caliber. The only reason I have even considered anything else is for hunting, and thats why I like the Grendel. However, I have hunting rifles that outperform any of them, so it becomes a moot point. However it's fun contemplating.
Yeah, it isn't as if I need ANOTHER deer rifle...

77 gr. bullets available for handloading? As you might expect I've a few pieces of brass.

Sierra makes the 77gr BTHP match. Hornady makes a 75gr BTHP match for about half the price. I heard rumor that Sierra helped Hornady design their bullet. PRVI also sells 75gr BTHP in bulk, when you can find them. Check the sales sites like Midway.

PS, 1000 5.56 cases weighs 14lbs.

txpete · Post by **txpete** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:38 pm

lots of good info here.
I went with a colt as they hold their value.I have a 1-9 twist and no problems with bullets from 50-64 gr.I haven't tried any of the heavy ones yet.

fwiw the colt sure is a heap better than the A-1 I was issued

.
pete

OT - Standard issue type AR15s what to look and ask for

OT - Standard issue type AR15s what to look and ask for

AR 15 Talking Paper

Re: OT - Standard issue type AR15s what to look and ask for

Re: OT - Standard issue type AR15s what to look and ask for

Re: OT - Standard issue type AR15s what to look and ask for

Re: OT - Standard issue type AR15s what to look and ask for