Lengthening COL in the Winchester 94

[Marc]

I have given a bit of thought to modifying the Winchester 94 to cycle longer cartridges. My 356 will feed a COL of 2.57" which is what I loaded the RCBS 35-200-FN to. My two new 35 caliber molds both make heavier and longer bullets. Pictured are my dummy rounds with the RCBS-200, the Saeco 352 at 252 grains and the NEI-290-GC at 295 grains. The Saeco is loaded to a COL of 2.69" and the NEI is loaded to 2.71".

I wanted to be able to feed these through my 356.

The key is the carrier. I bought a pre-64 carrier on Ebay to modify. I used the pre-64 carrier because I believe it is forged and the post -64 carriers are cast. I had to remove a lot of metal and I want the stronger forged part. The modification requires cutting the block back that stops the head of the cartridge and cutting the lug at the top of the carrier that a lug on the bolt pushes to raise the carrier.
This is the standard post-64 carrier and the modified pre-64 carrier in front.


The other part that stops bolt travel on the post-64 is the carrier screw. It is a single long screw that passes completely through the receiver. There is also a bridge cast across the lever slot that would stop bolt travel if the screw wasn't there. The pre-64 carrier does not have the bridge and it uses two short screws through both sides of the receiver to hold the carrier thus the slot in the carrier is left open. I think the bridge is cast into the post-64 carrier to strengthen the part. Here is a view to show this difference between the post and pre-64 carriers.

This view also shows the original long post-64 carrier screw and the one I cut to use with my modified carrier.

I am not done with the fitting yet. The pre-64 carrier is larger in every dimension than the post-64 carrier. I had to do a lot of grinding to get it inside the receiver. It is longer and also needs to have clearance ground into it to clear the back of the loading gate and the cartridge guide. I spent about 4 hours whittling on it. It is hardened enough that it can't be cut with a hack saw or file so it is all grinder work. The lug the spring rides over also needs to be ground down. I also need to secure the pin in the right side of the receiver for the carrier to pivot on. But it does work! I loaded and cycled both the 2.69" cartridges and the 2.71" cartridges pictured above in it.

[Marc]

This is a more detailed explanation that I posted elsewhere:

I bought a pre-64 carrier to modify because it is a stronger forging whereas the post 64 carrier is cast. My 356 would cycle a COL of 2.57" which is the length I use for the RCBS 35-200-FN. My two heavyweight loads measure 2.69" with the Saeco 352 and 2.71" with the NEI 290-GC. I therefore cut the lug on top of the carrier back that the bolt catches to raise the carrier and the cartridge stop shoulder on the carrier back .140". The pre-64 carrier is slightly larger in nearly every dimension than the post 64 carrier. I spent about four hours narrowing it and relieving various places so it would move freely inside the receiver. This is a picture of the two carriers with the modified pre-64 carrier in front:


The post-64 carrier screw limits the lever travel and therefore the bolt travel and when Winchester went to the cast carrier they added a bridge to tie the two sides of the carrier together that also limits bolt travel. The bridge and the screw have to be eliminated. This picture shows the open back of the pre-64 carrier and the bridge on the post 64 carrier. It also shows the original screw and the screw I cut down for the left side. I used a roll pin for the right side of the carrier to pivot on:


The little inverted V shaped cam that the carrier spring rides on to hold the carrier up or down as needed is also different pre- and post-64. I spent hours grinding that cam on the pre-64 carrier and trying it in the rifle. I finally got it to work but it weren't easy!

Everything worked as expected to this point and the rifle would cycle the 2.71" ammo as long as I held the lower link up while working the lever. Huh? Yes, if I let the lower link drop all the way the lever would lock when I tried to pull it back to feed a cartridge into the chamber. The post-64 lever has an L shaped slot that the lever pivot pin rides in. When the link dropped the pin would get into the bottom of the L and lock the lever. This photo shows the link at its lowest point where the lever would lock:


There are two lugs on the front of the lower tang that stop the locking bolt's downward travel. Since the lower link hangs on the bottom of the locking bolt I tried building up the two little lugs on the lower tang with weld to limit the locking bolt travel and keep the lower link from dropping to the point where the pivot pin would get into the bottom of the L. Didn't work! It was so close that if I pulled down on the lever it would work, but if I had upward pressure on the lever, which is normal, it would lock. Another thing that happened was that the heat of the welding shrank and distorted the part of the lower tang that the lever detent engages and I had to rework that section also.

After a bit of head scratching I decided to add a piece of metal to the bottom of the lower link that the front of the trigger loop would hit when the lever is all the way forward and thereby push the lower link up. That piece of metal is in the last picture. Worked like a charm! Here it is attached to the lower link and you can see how it pushes the lower link up to keep the pin out of the bottom of the L. You can also see the end of the roll pin in the side of the receiver:


I left out some whys and wherefors in this account. It ain't quite as simple as it looks but this is the gist of it. And it won't be this simple to modify a pre-64. I only went for a COL of 2.71" but I think I can equal Mic's 2.73". It's a measly .020" more.

[Marc]

I first made this modification 1-1/2 years ago. I hunted with the rifle and I cycle all the ammo I am testing at the range through the action when I am load testing. It works every time and feeds very slick!

[BenT]

Very intersting info. It's always interesting how things aren't as straight forward once you start these projects.

[JFE]

Marc,

That was the article I recall reading. However what I didnt remember was all the grief you went through in order to get it to work.

Thanks for posting it again. Its an excellent piece of work.

Now where the heck can I find myself a pre-64 forged shell carrier....

Joe

[Marc]

I was going to do another one and take more photos to show where to grind but that project got pushed to the back of the burner. It took 15 or 16 hours to do the first one. The second one won't take as long since I know what I am doing now. But, there might be a better way now.

I just saw that Wisner is making an "improved" post-64 carrier. Wisner makes replacement parts for obsolete rifles on CNC machinery from bar stock. So Wisner's "improved" carrier would be made from good steel and you wouldn't have to fit it to the post-64 receiver. The cam would have the right profile too. It might save a lot of work. The improved carrier might have the bridge across the back which would have to be removed but maybe not.

Since Wisner's part is CNC machined it might be possible to have him change his program to make the carriers already modified to feed longer rounds. If there is interest here I could call Wisner and see if he could do that. Make it a drop in part!

Link to Wisner's. The post-64 improved carrier is at bottom of page.
http://wisnersinc.com/rifles/winchester/94.html

[JFE]

Marc,

I think they are pre-64 carriers, but no matter as you mentioned with CNC machinery it would be possible to configure it correctly. I would buy one.

You could also have him produce the proper short screws to avoid having to use the roll pin.

Do you think there is better solution to the hanging of the lower link as described in your post ?

It would be quite neat to have the conversion look as stock as possible.

In your conversion did you make other changes to the carrier accommodate the 356 case vs 30/30 ?

Joe

[Marc]

Wisner lists two carriers: part# 1294 which is the pre-64 and part# 1294X which is the post-64. He also sells the short pre-64 screws part#1394. The 1294X would be the way to go. It is well worth the price to avoid all the grinding and fitting.

I bought a tap for the right side of the receiver so I can replace the roll pin. It is a 12-32. I haven't decided what I will do for a screw on that side. I have an idea how to do it that would avoid tapping and get rid of the roll pin if we were able to come up with a drop in part.

There is probably a better way to do the lower link. I haven't thought of it yet though. I haven't looked at it since I put it together. I wanted to function test it for a while before I put any more time into it. It was my original goal to be able to make the modification without altering any original parts. The lower link is the problem.

I didn't have to do anything to the carrier to use it for the 356. It looks like all the carriers are the same. I have a post-64 30-30, the 356 and a 444 Big Bore and all the carriers look the same.

I will be contacting Wisner in the next week or so and I will see what he says about this project. I don't know how many people are interested in this mod. Nobody else has jumped in here. More people would probably be interested if the lower link problem can be solved without drilling and tapping and changing the looks.

It is most worthwhile for cast bullet shooters and I intend to modify my 30-30 next because I have several cast bullets that like to be loaded longer.

[JFE]

This modification would open up a lot of new possibilities for the Win 94. Apart from additional flexibility in bullet selection it would also open up power upgrade options, eg rechambering for 444 based wildcats without having to trim cases.

I am sure there would be interest if the modification were a drop in (or close to it) and still looked like a stockie.

Please keep me posted on how you get on.

[Marc]

"444 based wildcats"? Like this one?
[img][img]http://www.hunt101.com/data/556/2394730-06-260_R.jpg[/img][/img]
444 case on left, second is 444 case reformed in a shortened 30-06 die, third is a 30-30 for comparison, fourth is a rimless version of the wildcat, Last is a 30-06 case for comparison

I played with this one earlier this year in a Big Bore 94. Col is 2.73". I think I went up to 2800 fps with the 150 grain bullet and 2900 fps with the 130 Speer. I am not finished working with it yet. It would be better in an iimproved version.

I will let you know how the carrier mod develops. I do have an idea how to avoid drilling the lower link and keep everything inside. It will take some time to work it out. I am finishing up a remodel on the house and have my work shop in a big mess. I need to get that straightened up before I do anything.

[JFE]

Cheers Marc.

Thats exactly the sort of thing you could look to do. I like your thinking on the reloading dies too.

Will await your feedback when you can take the project forward.

Joe