The incorrigible…...

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Ray
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The incorrigible…...

#1 Post by Ray » Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:20 pm

……muzzleloading caplock !

I go nearly two decades without a misfire then I get a spate of them….

I try to avoid misfires by storing muzzle down after cleaning and then popping a few caps to clear the way but just the other day, after a peaceful hunt, when I went to clear the gun into a stump, just pop…..new cap….pop again…..third cap pop and then hang fire…..reload and shoots normally.

Experts such as Forsyth, Chapman, Roberts, Mathews, and Seyfried all write that the only way to be sure with a clean gun is to fire a shot prior to loading for the hunt…..Roberts recommended firing a half charge blank and Seyfried a full load then loading then running a lightly ballistoled patch down to the charge to stave-off rusting during the hunt…..Cumpston recommends priming under the cone with grain's weight of 3f which seems to work reliably but the slight hang fire from the fuse affect might be okay for plinking but not so good for hunting.

I am trying something along those lines to dry and clear the pyro path…..popping a cap with a pinch of smokeless powder under the cone prior to the hunting loads seems to work better than anything…..those alphabet soup "O" s of trail boss did not work at all but the other powder on the bench at the time, 2400 worked well…..

I am not advocating using any kind of smokeless powder load or even the once sanctioned duplex loads but just a pinch of smokeless, a grain weight or less, to clear a path for the flame prior to loading the hunting load on the cap lock that is prone to misfire….2400 seemed to work fine but there may be a better choice for this application….any advise for a small granuled, easy to ignite smokeless powder just to burn out any oil between the cone and the breech face prior to loading for the hunt is welcome…..
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Re: The incorrigible…...

#2 Post by Sixgun » Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:22 pm

A agree...use smokeless....I've used around 10 grains of Unique with a patch in a 54 Thompson......remember, when Bill Ruger built his first Ruger Old Army, he loaded up a hefty charge of Bullseye with the 45 round ball and shot that....He figured if that did not blow it up, nothing would. Why filth it all up with black-----6
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Re: The incorrigible…...

#3 Post by AJMD429 » Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:40 pm

Sixgun, I'm still wondering why that according to the instruction manual, I can use smokeless in my Savage ML-10 muzzleloader, yet everyone says not to do it in ANY muzzleloader. Somehow I don't think the inherent design of a muzzleloader versus a breechloader is the issue. I think the strength of the action and the steel is what matters. Of course some muzzleloaders are soft and different steel, even if modern manufacture, but I ALSO realize that pressure curves for SOME smokeless powders CAN duplicate black powder ones, and smokeless certainly seems less hygroscopic and less prone to rusting things if not meticulously cleaned right away.

I do like the 'feel' and the smoke of black powder sometimes, but have seen too many experts fire many rounds from muzzleloaders using 5744 and SR4759 to think that all smokeless powders are forbidden.

Anyway, if you are talking about just using it for blowing out 'crud' before your actual (black powder) load, I'd be hard pressed to find any logical reason that could be a bad thing.
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Re: The incorrigible…...

#4 Post by Ray » Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:47 am

Sixgun wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:22 pm
A agree...use smokeless....I've used around 10 grains of Unique with a patch in a 54 Thompson......remember, when Bill Ruger built his first Ruger Old Army, he loaded up a hefty charge of Bullseye with the 45 round ball and shot that....He figured if that did not blow it up, nothing would. Why filth it all up with black-----6
I did not try unique as I was not thinking an actual load poured down the barrel, just a tad under the cone so I am thinking less of a flake powder and more of a small granule one….I did try a .40 s & w case full of trail boss down the pipe, held back with a cotton ball but it did not ignite at all even with r.w.s. english top hats ! it just moved the cotton ball 3/4" or so with the pressure of the cap and no powder actually ignited…..which begs the question, did that 10 gr. unique "blank" go boom or just poof ?
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Re: The incorrigible…...

#5 Post by Nath » Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:00 am

Using oil is the problem.
Hot water to clean and make a thick grease from animal fat and some olive oil. Coat the bore and outside whilst hot. Store muzzle down.

Popping a cap prior to loading can block a nipple. Insert a rod and cleaning patch to create some back pressure or just arrogant idiot the nipple after popping a cap.
Should be fine then.

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Re: The incorrigible…...

#6 Post by Ray » Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:23 am

AJMD429 wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:40 pm
Sixgun, I'm still wondering why that according to the instruction manual, I can use smokeless in my Savage ML-10 muzzleloader, yet everyone says not to do it in ANY muzzleloader. Somehow I don't think the inherent design of a muzzleloader versus a breechloader is the issue. I think the strength of the action and the steel is what matters. Of course some muzzleloaders are soft and different steel, even if modern manufacture, but I ALSO realize that pressure curves for SOME smokeless powders CAN duplicate black powder ones, and smokeless certainly seems less hygroscopic and less prone to rusting things if not meticulously cleaned right away.

I do like the 'feel' and the smoke of black powder sometimes, but have seen too many experts fire many rounds from muzzleloaders using 5744 and SR4759 to think that all smokeless powders are forbidden.

Anyway, if you are talking about just using it for blowing out 'crud' before your actual (black powder) load, I'd be hard pressed to find any logical reason that could be a bad thing.

yes doc, though no actual "crud" in the hygienic sense as I clean them meticulously the old fashioned way with water which requires them to be promptly oiled thoroughly….

where lies the problem….the merest, and I mean the merest hint of oil in and between the effluent orifice of the cone and the breech face can, and often does dampen and cool the fire of even hot formulated caps, yea even r.w.s. english top hats…..and the ejecta/debris from the spent caps (there is often a round paper disk left after the pop), dampened with that oil sludges-up the works which I guess can be considered "crud" in simplest sense…..

case in point take a traditional cap lock and thoroughly clean with water from muzzle to cone influent orifice then dry and displace any remaining water with a water soluble oil to prevent rusting….let rest muzzle down for an ample time then swab bore with a dry patch….de-oil cone and flash channel with a few drops of any quickly evaporating solvent….blow breath through cone with a tight fitting flexible tube to convince yourself it is clear….then cap cone and snap…..i'll vote democrat if, more often than not, you get a bit of quite visible oil blown back up into the cone, even after all that care and effort to prevent it….

Ned Roberts wrote that he always performed a meticulous regimen of both de-oiling with 180 proof and snapping caps prior to a shooting match and did the same plus firing off a half charge of powder before a hunt…..
Last edited by Ray on Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The incorrigible…...

#7 Post by Ray » Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:33 am

Nath wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:00 am
Using oil is the problem.
Hot water to clean and make a thick grease from animal fat and some olive oil. Coat the bore and outside whilst hot. Store muzzle down.

Popping a cap prior to loading can block a nipple. Insert a rod and cleaning patch to create some back pressure or just arrogant idiot the nipple after popping a cap.
Should be fine then.

N.
you'll have to translate that phrase from the queen's english to stiff-necked colonial rebel english so as I can comprehend it….

we will have to agree to disagree on the use of oil (i use 1/7 to 1/10 ratio ballistol to water depending on type/style of gun)….do you use any type of metal preservative in the flash channel and cone ?
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Re: The incorrigible…...

#8 Post by M. M. Wright » Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:44 am

I only shoot muzzle loader to hunt deer with so don't have to go through this very often but here is my regimen. I clean with 10:1 Ballistol mixture and oil with a patch wetted with straight Ballistol before storage. If I remember to do it, I like to wipe the bore with a damp patch, (Ballistol) after a month or so.
Before loading I pour a little acetone or methanol down the barrel, swab with clean patch and then use compressed air to dry. Then I snap a cap and pour the powder down. Works for me.
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Re: The incorrigible…...

#9 Post by Pete44ru » Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:46 am

Ray wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:20 pm

……muzzleloading caplock !

I go nearly two decades without a misfire then I get a spate of them….

I am trying to dry and clear the pyro path

I used to experience the same thing with my caplock rifles, but since I switched from Pyrodex to Holy Black (I use FFFg) about 25 years ago, the issue hasn't yet recurred.


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Re: The incorrigible…...

#10 Post by Sixgun » Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:39 am

The reason why manufacturers tell you NOT to use smokeless in a muzzleloader is the same reason your not supposed to use smokeless powder in cartridge guns designed and manufactured during the black powder days.

Yes....they are right...it's very easy to make a small mistake that leads to a big problem.

I've shot tens of thousands of rounds from rifles and handguns made from the 1870's-smokeless era. You had better know what you are doing, take no chances, be extremely knowledgeable about powder pressure curves, bullet diameters, primers, outside temperatures or you could eat steel or harm the person next to you.

You have to be able to read between the lines and make that decision for yourself....knowledge is power.

This happened to me....not from an overload but continued shooting of "warm loads" over a period of close to thirty years in a black powder 1886 in 45-90. I still have the scars. Even back in '03 this was a 4K rifle. ---6

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Re: The incorrigible…...

#11 Post by BlaineG » Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:05 pm

I had that problem all the time with a .54 Renegade. Then a fella said that taking the warm rifle out into the cold cause it to sweat on the inside. I'd keep the rifle in the cold trunk the night before and load a cold gun. "Seemed" like it helped a bit.
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Re: The incorrigible…...

#12 Post by Nath » Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:21 pm

Ray wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:33 am
Nath wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:00 am
Using oil is the problem.
Hot water to clean and make a thick grease from animal fat and some olive oil. Coat the bore and outside whilst hot. Store muzzle down.

Popping a cap prior to loading can block a nipple. Insert a rod and cleaning patch to create some back pressure or just arrogant idiot the nipple after popping a cap.
Should be fine then.

N.
you'll have to translate that phrase from the queen's english to stiff-necked colonial rebel english so as I can comprehend it….

we will have to agree to disagree on the use of oil (i use 1/7 to 1/10 ratio ballistol to water depending on type/style of gun)….do you use any type of metal preservative in the flash channel and cone ?
:lol: so sorry, I never proof read my reply.
The swear filter went nuts. I said p.r.i.c.k the nipple.

No I don't lube the flash channel, the hot water dissolves any salts, no serious corrosion should take place. It doesn't with my guns.

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Re: The incorrigible…...

#13 Post by GunnyMack » Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:55 pm

I would change the nipple, if still miss/hanging I'd try your smokeless technique.
Never use oil on a front stuffer!

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Re: The incorrigible…...

#14 Post by Chuck 100 yd » Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:07 pm

Bringing a cold rifle into a warm moist area will cause it to sweat and condense.
I clean all oils from inside the barrel and nipple flash channel using alcohol or other solvent. Allow the solvent to completely dry
before loading the gun. Load her up.
I swab the bore with a light coating of lube from muzzle down to the bullet. I also grease the threads of the nipple with wonder lube, being carefull mot to get any inside the flash channel. Don't bring the rifle into a warm moist area during the entire hunting season. My rifles fire every time when I do the above. Washington is well known for it's wet hunting seasons. Keep your powder dry !

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Re: The incorrigible…...

#15 Post by Pete44ru » Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:18 pm

.


FWIW

IME, the loaded gun (w/o a cap, of course) can be safely moved from the outdoors/cold inside a warmer area, but the trick is to put it into a heavy/thick (insulated soft gun case before bringing it inside.

I always place a leather tab onto the in-capped nipple, though - to avoid any moisture ingress through the ignition channel.

(I do the same with my flinchlocks, temporarily plugging the ignition vent with a wooden toothpick)

I usually let the gun warm up to the indoor temperature while it's still inside the closed case, very gradually (usually overnite, at least) to avoid condensation inside the barrel.


.
IF IN THESE TYMES OF JEOPARDY,
MORTAL PERIL INVADES THY THOUGHT,
TAKE UP THIS TRVSTY PIECE,
TRVST IN THY GOD, AND FEAR THEE NAUGHT.

(The avatar is me, in 1948 ! )

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