What is the most difficult cartridge you have ever developed a load for?

[geobru]

I was contemplating the path I took to start reloading and wondered what other's biggest challenges have been.

Mine was the 40-82 WCF. The gun is an 1886 Winchester built in 1887 that my dad got at an auction in 1929 for $1.50. The auctioneer handed it to my dad and said, "Here kid, use it for a crowbar." It didn't have a rear sight, and the safety notch on the hammer was broken off. Dad never did shoot that gun because he only ever saw one box of shells for it and it was too expensive for him at $15.00. That gun sat in his closet all the while I was growing up, and every once in a while when I was a kid, I would sneak in and work the lever and point it at imaginary big bucks. When he passed, I wound up with the gun and decided to see if I could reload for it and shoot it. I'd never reloaded anything before, but I had always saved the empty brass from my 30-06 with the idea that "someday" I would reload it.

In 2006 I started scouring the internet for loads and after two years, I had around 75 loads ranging from black powder to hot smokeless loads for the rifles made after 1903 or so that had proof steel barrels. It was during this time that I discovered this website and got some good advice from the members here. Before buying all the reloading equipment, I tore the gun apart, cleaned it thoroughly and repaired the safety notch on the hammer and bought a cheap rear sight. Then In 2008, I bought three boxes of shells from Gad Custom Cartridges at $35 per box. Two were loads with H4198 and one was black powder. Bullets were .406 diameter, with cast boolets in the BP load and one of the smokeless loads, and a 210 grain jacketed bullet in the other smokeless load. When I shot it the first time, I put the rifle in the center of an old rolled up sleeping bag with a length of baling twine attached to the trigger. I stood back away from the gun and pulled the twine which set off the round. It went bang, so after examining the rifle, it seemed safe to shoot.

That first day, I got 5-6" groups at 50 yards with the jacketed bullet, but the cast boolets tumbled. I shot three rounds. One was key holed 30" to the right at 3:00, one was key holed 36" low at 6:00, and the third shot missed the refrigerator box I was using as a backboard.

The subsequent discovery process began by slugging the barrel and finding out that the barrel diameter was .409", which explained why the lead boolets tumbled. I bought a press, scale, trickler, a set of powder scoops, and 40-82 dies off ebay and set up to start reloading. I used the standard reloading dies to make 40-82 cases from 45-90 Starline brass. I bought a trim die to remove the excess brass. My test loads used 4198, 3033, and 5744 powders. The problem I had was that the reloads wouldn't chamber in the gun because the .410 boolet plus the thickness of the brass at the neck wouldn't fit in the chamber. To solve this I bought a Lee three jaw chuck and turned the necks down with a file until the round would chamber.

When I shot the loads, they were very inconsistent. By that time I had invested in a chronograph to make sure that I wasn't shooting loads that were too hot for the mild steel barrel. After researching all about whether or not you should use fillers in smokeless loads in black powder guns with longer cases like the 40-82 0r 45-90, I opted to try them. The results were promising, so I tried several different fillers and settled on coarse ground corn meal. I wound up with a load the would group 2.5-3" at 100 yards.

Life was good for several years until my boolet supply got thin and I couldn't source the same cast boolits online and I didn't know what mold they were from. So I bought .410 boolits from the Bullshop that were within a grain or two of the ones I had previously used. I loaded up my favorite load with the new boolits, and they would not group at all. They would hit all over an 8.5x11" target. After testing those boolits with 5744 loads that fell within the velocity window I had for that old 86, I decided to try RL7 to see if I could find an an accurate load. I loaded five loads of six rounds each to find out where the sweet spot was if any. I wound up with a 2.5" six shot group at 100 yards. If you drop one flyer, the group size is 1.26" which made me very happy!

40-82 Best Group 2.5 inches at 100 yards.jpg

This whole process took place over years, but it is worth it to me to get that old girl shooting straight. Now I load for a wide assortment of rifle cartridges, but none have taught me so much or have been so difficult to figure out as that 40-82 was.

What's your story?

[mickbr]

44 mag, sorry I dont belong on a thread like this. All mine have been easy ones. Gread read though.

I did once look in detail at getting into 56-50 via a chiappa 1860 lever action repro. That particular chiappa model has an entire sub-forum over at CASS dedicted to its problems and fixes so I walked away from the idea.

[Scott Tschirhart]

.17 Remington. Just had trouble with tiny components.

[Drawdown]

270Win! But i came to quick & easy, very useful & consistent results with 30-30W from the start! Lotta experiments, spent way more money than needed, but now it was worth it! I still love Reloading for 30-30 best of all! 30-06 was my smartest n least expensive cause I learned from 30-30!
Then accidentally n unprepared, a Rem 700 270Win came available, so I grabbed it cause id long wanted one! I had to settle upon what few components I could get, 2022! But a big factor, I knew i needed to work on the trigger, but I didnt for a long time. The 30-06 spoiled me, I had gotten sub .75" groups easily, and even 5/8"! Finally after wasted tries, I had the rifle sold! Last minute after giving up, I determined, just slow down do it right, so I kept it. Reduced the trigger pull a lot, got good components. It's still no tack driver, but we'll worthy hunt accuracy, and way farther than I'll ever take a deer most likely! Taken my last two deer with it, and actually for my style hunting, Still Hunting on foot, shots most always off hand, sub 100yds, its my favorite off hand shooting rifle for the woods & using a scope, little lughter than my Tikka 06, and handles very much like my Scoped CZ 22lr i squirrel hunt with, 2nd only to my Mod 64 30-30 for deer!
And Reloading for it now, i know my best recipes, forget about all the MOA long range BS you read! Was reading this morning of John Wooters comments of his favorite Deer Rifle, his Sako Forester 308W? He said he'd killed deer mostly close but also long range, he'd never shot anything less than 1.5" with it, and he was a dedicated reloader.

[yooper2]

22 Savage High Power. The only readily available bullet is the Hornady 70gr and it was on the ragged edge of stabilizing. I tried all sorts of things before making a bump die that lets me make 60gr Hornady soft points .228". Brass is an issue as well, I have to form it from virgin 25-35 as the base diameter is slightly smaller than any make of 30-30 brass.

Close second is 44-90 bottle neck. A lot of case forming and a combination of a tight chamber neck and .451" groove diameter means paper patched bullets at .446" are the only thing that will chamber and shoot well after a ton of load development.

I also banged my head against the wall that is making a 577 Snider shoot well until I went to X Ring Services for their .600" Snider mold.

Eric

[marlinman93]

Mine was a .35-40 Maynard chambering in my Darr barreled Rolling Block. I figured it would be a snap since I'd heard the cartridge could just be fore formed using .32-40 brass, but that idea went away quickly. I tried chambering an empty .32-40 case and it stopped 3/8" shy of chambering! I ran the case into my .32-40 die thinking that it might need full length sizing, but still no go.
I finally used a felt pen to blacken the case and see where it was too large. It was in the area just above the rim about 3/8". So I built a mandrel with a pin tip to fit the case neck perfectly, and the pin fit into the primer flash hole. Chucked it in my lathe and spun it as I held a file to the area just above the rim to remove some metal. Kept checking it in the chamber until it slid in, then I took measurements of the case and began turning down a bunch of cases to match the first one.
Working up loads was easy as I just used .38-55 data I had and it worked great in the .35-40 Maynard cases. But I sure don't relish or look forward to making many of those cases if I ever lose any.

[buckeyeshooter1]

50-110 winchester in a modern Turnbull 1886. All the loading info is for black powder rifles or level 1 smokeless guns. The modern steel 1886 can handles at least level 2 loads and probably level 3 loads. I developed ammo to use the 300 grain Barnes Original for deer, the 450 Barnes Original for larger game like elk and moose. Then the 535 grain Woodleigh in soft and solids for big bears and dangerous game. It helped a lot that I also have done the same load development on a Turnbull .50 Alaskan with the same bullets.

[Shasta]

geobru, that was a super interesting read, and some years ago I had a near identical experience with a vintage 1895 Winchester in caliber .38-72. I did a very extensive four thread range report here on the Leverguns forum. It takes a bit of time to wade through it all, but for those who may be interested, here is a link...

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=37307


Shasta

[jeepnik]

Honestly, I really haven't found load development difficult. Reasons are simple. I only use load directly from manuals. I don't try to hot rod anything. And, I am not an experimenter. I find a load that works and just stick with it. For instance, I only have two .45 acp loads. One for cast, the other for fmj's

That said, the most difficult cartridge I have found to load is the .25 acp. Simply because of it's size.

[GunnyMack]

Most problematic rifle is my Mexican Mauser, 257 Ackley Improved I did while in school. Took me 30 years to find a powder/bullet/COAL combo that will hold 3 in about an inch at 100... at 200 it was a tack driver but shot patterns at 100.
17Remington, 218 bee,22 hornet and 25-20 again because of tiny bullets and thin necks.

[geobru]

geobru, that was a super interesting read, and some years ago I had a near identical experience with a vintage 1895 Winchester in caliber .38-72. I did a very extensive four thread range report here on the Leverguns forum. It takes a bit of time to wade through it all, but for those who may be interested, here is a link...

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=37307

Shasta,
That was really interesting and well written. I commented in the fourth thread the similarities between your quest for accuracy with the 38-72 and mine with the 40-82.

How satisfying to be able to resurrect an old rifle and bring it back to the point where it shoots accurately every time!

[piller]

.357 Sig is a bit of a pain to load because of size. The brass is short. It also does not like mild loads. Mine refuses to cycle unless the load is a bit warm. I have to limit it to AA 5 or hotter. Once the gun cycles, the accuracy is good for a bottom feeder.

[JimT]

25 ACP ..... little bitty cases and bullets ....

[Bill in Oregon]

.22 Hornet. That old Savage 340 didn't seem to like anything.

[4t5]

380 acp , hands start to cramp up quickly with these tiny components.
It’s easier to load my 32 H&R magnum , than these.

[samsi]

380 acp , hands start to cramp up quickly with these tiny components.
It’s easier to load my 32 H&R magnum , than these.

I had this very same thought.

My absolute most difficult wasn't an issue with the cartridge itself. I had a Ruger No.1 in 375H&H that I traded off in frustration, was never able to find a load that grouped well. I spent so much time at the bench with it that I'm pretty sure I did permanent damage to my shoulder.

[Bronco]

20 Vartarg !
Kept chasing what I knew was the potential. 4 powders and 6 charges for each powder! Finally got what I was looking for, 5 shots that can be covered with a dime at 100 yards. One of the 3 gun battery I take on ground squirrel shoots trips. I save it for the 200 yd and further shots.

[GunnyMack]

.22 Hornet. That old Savage 340 didn't seem to like anything.

My 340 is the same way Bill. It shoots ok but no where near as accurate as my #1 218 Bee.

[Griff]

My most difficult is also one of the easiest. .40-90 Sharp's Bottle Neck. One of the easiest when loaded with BP. Fill the case to the top of the shoulder and plunk a bullet on top. Finding the right bullet can be a bit of chore... But my 1st pick was, if not inspired, at least lucky! I'd long purchased LBT lubes for my various smokeless rounds, and had recently purchased a 185 grain WFN .452 mold for the Combat Commander. In talking about the .40 Sharps with Vern, he suggested a 370 grain flat nose for hunting in the Sharps Express model I had on order. Between the rifle's arrival and my 1st outing with it I had a week. That translated into one day at the range. Not an auspicious introduction. But, at both 100 & 200 yards all my shots were on the paper. Roughly 3" groups at 100 and between 5-6" aat 200. Goodern' enough for what I knew of the match the following weekend. 10 shots offhand @ about 200 yards while seated on a barrel "horse". At least this year they'd taken off the "rockers" from the bottom of the horse's "legs". I didn't do particularly well, but I hit the target with each shot, although slowly enough that I was easily outclassed by several others! I had loaded these with Pyrodex, and got a thorough chewing out from Mike Venturino afterwards. Frankly, I didn't understand the chemical explanations he'd harangued me about, but I caught the gist of his argument. Something about the very acidic nature of the fouling left after the shot. I thoroughly cleaned the rifle each use, but... it was much harder to clean than real black powder, when I followed his advice and changed over. But... I'd really bought the rifle to hunt with, and wanted to use smokeless for that. In 1986/7 while the rifle was on order, I'd looked for and couldn't find any load data for smokeless. In picking Mike's brain that nite after the side match, he suggested I simply use data for the .45-70 to start working up a load for smokeless using AA 5744. I started about 10% below max with 29 grains with that 370 LBT bullet. The rifle's rifling is 18:1. Not fast by any stretch. I was using wheel weights & linotype at a 6:1 ratio for about a 18Bhn according to the LBT lead hardness tester I'd bought. Accuracy was a bit less than the Pyrodex loads and quite a bit less than I'd gotten with a few tests of Goex 2F. As I experimented with heavier & lighter charge weights, so did the accuracy change. Not in any semblance of order. In hind sight, it was probably more my fault than the rifle's... as shooting that rifle off the bench was tough on my right elbow. Elbow on concrete = scrapping & torn scabs with the recoil. And, at the time, I was just using a block of wood and a sand bag for a front rest. Sometimes with my off hand under the forend, sometimes not. Nothing resembling repetitive consistency. After my first venture to the NRA Nationals BPCRS at Raton in '90, I was firmly ensconced as a "B" class shooter. The second year in '91, also only my second BPCRS match, I ended up in a 10 person tie for 3rd place in the "B" class. I made it thru three rounds of the ensuing shoot-off before running out of ammo. MIke offered to supply me with bullets to continue, but they were of a different weight and I was pretty beat after the 200+ rounds already downrange. So I settled for 7th place, and IIRC, a move to "A" class. Mike had told me at one time that until my ammo could hold 1 MOA at 100 yards, I shouldn't expect to succeed at longer ranges. I've never done that with smokeless. And yet, when I had access to a 500 meter range, my 300 meter targets were pretty much the equal of my 100 meter groups. And I'd consistently knock over the 500 meter rams, but never 10 in a row, even in practice. And my current gun club doesn't have a rifle range longer than 200 yards. I don't do a lot of paper punching with this rifle, far less than I think I should. In '93 or '94 at the OWSA National Shootout in Raton, they set out an 8' tall standing bear as the long range side match target. With my limited height on my tang sight, it took me 3 shots to range the hold-over to hit. That alone took me out of the running. And showed me the need for a taller rear sight. I still didn't go tall enough, as at the 2008 FBOD match in CO, I couldn't quite reach the 1000 yard buffalo they had. And EVERY shot I took at the 1,538 group of 3 horseback indian silhouettes was simply a "hail mary" shot! The fact is, I just don't shoot it enough to be proficient with it. I've now got 4 molds for the .40, a 330, 350, 370 & 400 grain. Everyone I've "conversed" with on the Shiloh forum that has a .40-90 SBN has said it's the most challenging cartridge they loaded for. The Sharp's factory load for the Express was a PP 330 grain bullet. Every person who's responded to my inquiries has said the .40-90SBN doesn't respond well to BP compression, and that's been borne out with my testing. I've tried grease cookies, lubed felt wads, HDPE & waxed card wads with my BP loads, my results don't seem to change. In the 29 years I've had the rifle, for smokeless I've stuck with AA 5744, although a couple of IMR powders have been suggested, and now, they're no longer available. The most comfortable position to shoot this rifle is seated with the rifle on crossed sticks, prone is brutal after a while, and standing off-hand is simple laughable... with its 12+ pound weight! Let me put it this way, in '90 @ 40 years of age, 5 shots was tiring, I can't imagine what it'd be like at 75! Yes I can... one shot would be about all I could manage before setting it down! So, sitting it is!