Rossi 92 Locking bolt pin Screw keeps breaking!

[cpy911]

Hi friends,

I have a stock Rossi 92 that has now broken the locking bolt pin screw twice after <100 rounds. I am frustrated as to why it keeps breaking.

This is the screw that holds the main locking bolt pin in place. The little head on the locking screw snaps off where it is holding the locking bolt in place. It leaves about 1/2 of the head left in place. I am getting tired of buying these screws just about every time I shoot! Sheesh!

I was trying to run .38 SWCs today and it tends to not lift these cartridges with the lifter and jammed up on me. I suppose this is when I broke the locking bolt pin screw?? Sooo, anyone ever have problems with this screw breaking on them? What are your experiences? I will not run .38s SWC's anymore, the .357 RNFPs worked great today, I don't recall forcing the action with the .357 RNFPs.


FYI, the screw I am talking about can be seen at step 5 in the link below
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/taylo ... _strip.htm

This seems to be a weak spot failure of the action. One screw head fails and the locking bolt pin falls out and you are out of commission!

Thanks.
cpy911

PS
Came to the conclusion that Stock Rossi notch sights don't work so well in my shooting....I am looking to upgrade to a Tang or Receiver sight now!!!

[J Miller]

cpy911,

That is definitely not a normal occurrence with 92s. I'd bet the pin protrudes just a bit putting the head of the screw in a bind. Then when you shoot it the bind fractures the edge off the screw.

Take a real close look and see if the pin is flush or proud of where the screw head rests.

Rossi sights are a bit crude, I fixed that by putting a Williams FP on mine.

Joe

[AJMD429]

Rossi sights are a bit crude, I fixed that by putting a Williams FP on mine.

Easy to do, by the way - REALLY easy. . . > - http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... =1&t=25689

[bmtshooter]

Had the same problem several years ago with my Rossi 92. Pin shoulder was just a bit too long, leaving the screw head sticking out a little. The head would get sheared in half on the inside of the receiver when closing the action. It was easily repaired by Nate Kiowa Jones, & have not broken a screw head since. Good luck.

[cpy911]

I noticed on the small machined area of the locking bolt pin that the locking screw clamps down on (1/2 moon shape area) is proud about .005" to .010". So, when I crank down the locking screw on the locking bolt pin, the locking screw has a pre-load on it and may contribute to its untimely demise. My plan is to file this area down on the locking bolt pin so it is (.005" below surface) so when I tighten the locking screw it has no preload and allows a little bit of float for the locking bolt pin that is constantly under load from working the lever. I think the stresses are being transferred from the locking bolt pin directly to the relatively weak locking screw, this should not be by design, right????

Thoughts?

Time to order another locking screw though...might as well buy several! Sheesh!

Thanks,
cpy911

[Griff]

As you file the shank of the stop screw down to less than proud of the frame wall, remember that the lever/bolt pin might just work it's way into the gap caused by the stop screw being below flush... then locking up your action from the inside. The lever/bolt pin should have a slight taper on the end that corresponds to the stop screw. Make sure you get the pin in correctly.

[J Miller]

cpy911,

I think you are on the right track. I can't remember exactly how the right side of the pin is shaped; ie; whether it has a head on it or is straight sided, but I'd file on the left end of it first if possible so as to not mess up the little curved cut out for the locking screw.

You might also buy a spare locking bolt pin as well. That one might fit better from the start.

Joe

[cpy911]

cpy911,

I think you are on the right track. I can't remember exactly how the right side of the pin is shaped; ie; whether it has a head on it or is straight sided, but I'd file on the left end of it first if possible so as to not mess up the little curved cut out for the locking screw.

You might also buy a spare locking bolt pin as well. That one might fit better from the start.

Joe

Joe, Good advice. I am going to order a spare locking bolt pin and use it to assemble everything and see if the fit is better BEFORE modifying the existing pin. Maybe this will be the ticket?

I am assuming most people don't have this problem and that the Rossi design is sound???

[J Miller]

cpy911,

I think you are on the right track. I can't remember exactly how the right side of the pin is shaped; ie; whether it has a head on it or is straight sided, but I'd file on the left end of it first if possible so as to not mess up the little curved cut out for the locking screw.

You might also buy a spare locking bolt pin as well. That one might fit better from the start.

Joe

Joe, Good advice. I am going to order a spare locking bolt pin and use it to assemble everything and see if the fit is better BEFORE modifying the existing pin. Maybe this will be the ticket?

I am assuming most people don't have this problem and that the Rossi design is sound???

I think that's a fair assumption. A lot of folks here have Rossi's and this is the first report I've heard about this problem.

Joe

[Griff]

My bad. I envisioned an entirely different part of the gun. Pictures being worth a thousand words, now you know why we insist on them! Not so you're not confused, but rather, that we AREN'T!


Just so there's no confusion, what I'm going to say next is simply meant to point out the obvious... to most folks, me... I need it pointed out!

Looking at both the below and the above picture you should be able to see that the actual locking lug pin has a small semi-circle cut out of the head of it, so the retaining screw holds it in place. If your pin has a burr or is otherwise not machined correctly, it could be causing some upward (actually sideways as you hold the gun) pressure causing the head of the retaining screw to snap off.


As seen in this view, the locking lug pin does have a small head to it. During assembly, you must make sure the pin is aligned correctly to the retaining screw can fit inside the "½-moon" cut in the head of the pin.


As seen on my EMF Rossi "Short Rifle" the pin can be recessed somewhat on the right side.

The left side of the pin with its' retaining screw are almost flush with the side of the locking lug.

I should think that this isn't a common problem, but since I've only worked on the 3 Rossi's I own, all I can say I haven't encountered it before. I would like to have been able to make better detailed pictures, but that's as close as my camera will allow me to focus, even on the "macro" setting.

[J Miller]

Griff,

Thanks for the pics. Now I know for sure what I thought I knew before .
If my rifle had that problem I'd make sure there was no burrs on the pin or in the hole and no debris either. Then if that were not the case I'd put the pin in a drill and very carefully remove some off the back of the shoulder.
That "should" put an end to the breaking lock screw problem.
I see now that my suggestion to file on the left side was the wrong one.'


Joe

[cpy911]

I have uploaded images from my broken Rossi

Below, see the locking screw broken


Below, the locking screw is removed to reveal the bolt pin. The 1/2 style moon cut out on the bolt pin where the locking screw clamps on is definitely .005" to .01" proud of the surface. This has got to be the issue. But I am not gunsmith. I would like to file the surface so it is nice and flat for the locking screw to seat down into. Keep in mind the bolt pin is pushed or seated down as far as it can go.


Any additional thoughts? Is the bolt pin cutout flush or recessed on yours or proud?

Thanks,
cpy911

[Griff]

Sorry about taking so long to get back to you, but since the computer crash, I forgot to download and register my camera software... And since I wanted to get as clear and detailed picture as is practicable, it took some editing.

So, as you can see, even without the pressure of the retaining screw, the pin sits with its ½-moon cut flush with the inset in the left lug.


I believe that any competent machinist should be able to machine out that cutout do a depth that will allow the retaining screw to hold the pin in place. I wouldn't suggest any other option, which would include removing some material under the head of the pin.

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

You guys are on it now. Yes, that half moon cutout has to be lowered slightly. If you are carefull you can do it with a worn down Dremel cutoff wheel.

[cpy911]

Sorry about taking so long to get back to you, but since the computer crash, I forgot to download and register my camera software... And since I wanted to get as clear and detailed picture as is practicable, it took some editing.

So, as you can see, even without the pressure of the retaining screw, the pin sits with its ½-moon cut flush with the inset in the left lug.


I believe that any competent machinist should be able to machine out that cutout do a depth that will allow the retaining screw to hold the pin in place. I wouldn't suggest any other option, which would include removing some material under the head of the pin.

Ok, here is the plan. I found my calipers and measured the bolt pin to be .010" proud of the surface where the lock screw sits in the counterbore with the bolt pin shoved as far down as she goes...this is what is probably causing the breaking of the locking screw. In your image, it looks like the bolt pin and the counterbore and nice and flush. See image and note in the image below:



Will let you know how it goes with my repair. Will take some time before I actually get out to test it again so it will be a while til I resurrect this thread for my report.

Ahh the things you learn with these Rossis....I am having a love hate relationship with mine! Looks like you and Steve Y, think I am on the right track, so I am off to the races.

Will get a spare bolt pin and lock screws on order to have backups.

Thanks,
cpy911 (wanna be gunsmith) (More of a fix it guy really)

[cpy911]

Ok, I have filed that shoulder down so it is basically flush with the counter bore. My old screw was able to go half a turn more to capture it and I worked the action, so far it is holding. I will need to crank off a bunch of rounds to see how she holds.


After:

[J Miller]

Isn't it amazing how a tiny bit of factory misfitting can cause so much trouble?

Awaiting a good range report.

Joe

[Griff]

Isn't it amazing how a tiny bit of factory misfitting can cause so much trouble?
Awaiting a good range report.
Joe

That sounded an awful lot like, "Isn't it wonderful that Rossi provides such great educational opportunties, both in theoretical & practical sciences!"

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

Ok, I have filed that shoulder down so it is basically flush with the counter bore. My old screw was able to go half a turn more to capture it and I worked the action, so far it is holding. I will need to crank off a bunch of rounds to see how she holds.


After:

That will probably do it. You don't want to take too much because the pin will protude and hang closing the action.

I see this way too often with the Rossi. Beside firing pin this is the #1 part most requested. You never see this problem with the old Wincgester 92. I think it is because the win screw isn't a brittle as the Rossi. I think rossi hardens these so hard because the threads are so fine a softer screw would easily strip. I wish Rossi would go to the old win screw pitch here. It's coarser so it woud'nt need to be so brittle.

[cpy911]

Ok, I have filed that shoulder down so it is basically flush with the counter bore. My old screw was able to go half a turn more to capture it and I worked the action, so far it is holding. I will need to crank off a bunch of rounds to see how she holds.


After:

That will probably do it. You don't want to take too much because the pin will protude and hang closing the action.

I see this way too often with the Rossi. Beside firing pin this is the #1 part most requested. You never see this problem with the old Wincgester 92. I think it is because the win screw isn't a brittle as the Rossi. I think rossi hardens these so hard because the threads are so fine a softer screw would easily strip. I wish Rossi would go to the old win screw pitch here. It's coarser so it woud'nt need to be so brittle.

Thanks for all the help guys. I filed just enough away until it was flush with the counterbore or just slightly below it. You are right, those lock screws are brittle. My protruding bolt pin feature was putting lots of stress there leading to breakage. I will test it out for a while and see if the modification works.
Other than the stock sights being somewhat crude, the Rossi works fine otherwise.

[pdentrem]

Too hard or soft bolts have been known to hurt and kill, in your case it is just a PITA.

Next time you have the oven at 500F, just throw the bolt in until it changes color to a dark yellow near orange. That will soften it a bit. Be sure to polish the head or the end so that you can see the color. You can use a torch but control is difficult. If you melt some lead you can touch the bolt to the molten lead until the color changes.

Here is a bit more info. Look at the second color chart.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/tempe ... _1530.html

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

Too hard or soft bolts have been known to hurt and kill, in your case it is just a PITA.

Next time you have the oven at 500F, just throw the bolt in until it changes color to a dark yellow near orange. That will soften it a bit. Be sure to polish the head or the end so that you can see the color. You can use a torch but control is difficult. If you melt some lead you can touch the bolt to the molten lead until the color changes.

Here is a bit more info. Look at the second color chart.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/tempe ... _1530.html

I have found thay it much easier to see and control color particularly the small items like this screw is to use an electric range element. polish it up set it on the element turn it on and when it reaches the correct color push off into the grease pan.

[SteveR]

Ok, I have filed that shoulder down so it is basically flush with the counter bore. My old screw was able to go half a turn more to capture it and I worked the action, so far it is holding. I will need to crank off a bunch of rounds to see how she holds.


After:

Hi,

I have the exact same problem, thanks for the information on the fix. Who do you order the replacement screws from? M&M??

Thanks,
Steve

[pdentrem]

I have found thay it much easier to see and control color particularly the small items like this screw is to use an electric range element. polish it up set it on the element turn it on and when it reaches the correct color push off into the grease pan.

I never even thought of electric! In the shop we use forming gas in the annealer which we use to harden or temper depending on the requirement. We almost never see the change unless we do it by hand.

Good thinking!

[cpy911]

Update.

Cranked off about 20-30 rounds and the locking screw (its actually the broken one that is turned 1/2 additional to lock in the pin) is still holding.

I will get aggressive with it. I still need to order a screw! But the broken one seems to work OK for now !

Thanks for all the help!