45-70 load like the old days

[getitdone1]

I'm curious about what kind of load would come closest to the 45-70, 405 gr load they used in the Old West.

Not black powder and mainly interested in a 405 gr cast bullet that comes closest to the old-time bullet. (Both in composition and shape.) Perhaps Lyman? I don't even know if they are still in business.

Believe the army used a carbine and rifle load. What did Winchester use for a 45-70 cast bullet way back when?

Were all the factory 405 gr bullets used in the old days, cast?

I'll bet some of you hunt with such a load and be interested in your results.

At around 1350 fps is leading of bore a problem?

Don

[Old Ironsights]

My "go-to" general purpose 45-70 load is (load book not handy) uses 2400 under the old "Gould" 458122hp. Soft shooting and cheap to load. Trapdoor pressures. IIRC the load is in Lyman 47

[Terry Murbach]

ALL OF THE LEAD BULLETS IN STANDARD FACTORY AMMUNITION BACK THEN WERE SWAGED LEAD.
THE MODERN XMP5744 PROPELLENT WILL SHOOT 405gr LFN BULLETS AT THE STANDARD 1873 VELOCITIES WHEN LOADED TO THE ESTABLISHED PRESSURES USED IN THE 1873 TRAPDOOR RIFLES AND CARBINES ie: 1350fps + -.

[M. M. Wright]

My 405 grain RNFPs are cast at 30:1 Lead/Tin which makes them rather soft but I think that is what most factory loads were cast or swaged from in order to get good expansion. I really like the XMP 5744 in the 45-70 and 45-90. Not quite as consistent as black is from shot to shot deviation but gives good accuracy.

[Ben_Rumson]

Lots of genuine period info here...Many calibers and cartridge types... 50-70s 45-70s... you name it...---> http://www.sodcity.com/gallery2/view_al ... e=3scanned from old publications...Here's a sample pic

Compressed_powder_sized.jpg

And much higher resolution than this sample

[Old Ironsights]

Lyman #47:

457643 (400gr) 21gr 2400 = 1322, 24.6gr = 1497

457122 HP (Gould) 21gr 2400 = 1293, 28gr = 1640

I like 2400, so that's what I use.

[k8bor]

Dead soft lead Lee 405gr. cast hot. Spg lube.

62gr. Goex2f compressed just enough to thumb seat bullet just above top grease groove,

Light crimp. Just to keep bullet from moving.

Go through the action without a hitch and shoot 3" @ 100 all day long.

Kills em dead. Don't know fps, could care less.

[getitdone1]

ALL OF THE LEAD BULLETS IN STANDARD FACTORY AMMUNITION BACK THEN WERE SWAGED LEAD.
THE MODERN XMP5744 PROPELLENT WILL SHOOT 405gr LFN BULLETS AT THE STANDARD 1873 VELOCITIES WHEN LOADED TO THE ESTABLISHED PRESSURES USED IN THE 1873 TRAPDOOR RIFLES AND CARBINES ie: 1350fps + -.

Terry,

Swaged Lead, eh? Surprises me and good to hear. I've swaged 44 mag but also used a half-jacket--3/4 would have been prefered.

The powder you mention (XMP 5744) I have and like and now use with Remington jacketed 405 gr bullets to achieve the closest I've yet come to the old 45-70 ctg and load. Read it's not "case position sensitive" so don't need filler.

Swaged lead without a jacket sounds like leading of bore even at slow 1350 fps. Maybe lube in bullet grooves prevents this, or most of it. Did they sometimes use animal lard in those grooves?

I always thought the buffalo hunters cast their bullets and carried the gear with them to do so.

Don

[Old Time Hunter]

Dead soft lead Lee 405gr. cast hot. Spg lube.

62gr. Goex2f compressed just enough to thumb seat bullet just above top grease groove,

Light crimp. Just to keep bullet from moving.

Go through the action without a hitch and shoot 3" @ 100 all day long.

Kills em dead. Don't know fps, could care less.

Pretty much the same load, using the Lee 405HB mould, 20-1 drops at around 420 grains,SPG, 62.5 grains of FFg = 1390fps rifle/1340fps carbine. When loaded with 28.5 grains of H4198 I get 1325fps out of the rifle and right at 1300fps out of the carbines.

[Rusty]

So what about leading? Is that a concern?

[KirkD]

My new pet load gives the original BP velocity at around FFg pressures. It is 22 grains of 2400 under a cast 405 grain bullet for 1,323 fps out of my original Winchester 1886. I only have one target here, but it has a 5-shot group of 2 & 1/2" at 100 yards with plain base bullets with a 4-shot cluster of 2". I get no leading whatsoever with these soft cast (wheel weights) bullets at this velocity.

[Terry Murbach]

ALL OF THE LEAD BULLETS IN STANDARD FACTORY AMMUNITION BACK THEN WERE SWAGED LEAD.
THE MODERN XMP5744 PROPELLENT WILL SHOOT 405gr LFN BULLETS AT THE STANDARD 1873 VELOCITIES WHEN LOADED TO THE ESTABLISHED PRESSURES USED IN THE 1873 TRAPDOOR RIFLES AND CARBINES ie: 1350fps + -.

Terry,

Swaged Lead, eh? Surprises me and good to hear. I've swaged 44 mag but also used a half-jacket--3/4 would have been prefered.

The powder you mention (XMP 5744) I have and like and now use with Remington jacketed 405 gr bullets to achieve the closest I've yet come to the old 45-70 ctg and load. Read it's not "case position sensitive" so don't need filler.

Swaged lead without a jacket sounds like leading of bore even at slow 1350 fps. Maybe lube in bullet grooves prevents this, or most of it. Did they sometimes use animal lard in those grooves?

I always thought the buffalo hunters cast their bullets and carried the gear with them to do so.

Don

THE BUFFALO RUNNERS DID CAST THEIR OWN BULLETS FROM THOSE RECOVERED FROM THE CARCASSES. MOST WENT STRAIGHT ON THROUGH.
THE FACTORY SWAGED BULLETS WERE EXCELLENT QUALITY AND LUBED WITH VARIOUS ANIMAL FAT AND NATURAL GREASES THAT DID A FINE JOB OF ALLEVIATING LEADING. THE SWAGED BULLETS HAD CANNALURES TO HOLD THE LUBE PLUS IF YOU LOOK CLOSELY MOST OLD AMMUNITION OF THAT PERIOD HAD BULLETS ALSO COATED IN GRAPHITE. THAT IS WHY THEY WERE BLACK AS COAL IN MOST CASES.

[Lobo]

Hi All,

Seems to me I've just seen a post where they were using Trail Boss powder favored by Cowboy Action shooters, and getting about the original velocities, and a really low SD on the velocity.

[KirkD]

Trail Boss is a very bulky powder with a very high burn rate. The result is that it will nicely fill a case and give moderate velocities. Because of its very fast burn rate, however, it will generate a pretty sharp peak pressure spike, so make sure that you follow approved published loads for TB. Compare the peak pressure for TB compared to BP. I would not use it in an original 1886, though others say it is safe. Just call me cautious.

[Ji in Hawaii]

BP is impossible to find here in the islands but Pyrodex, and Triple-7 is available. Anyone here ever try Pyrodex or Triple-7 in their 45/70 reloads?
Just curious. I have been happy with 4198 behind a 400 grain cast pushing about 1400 fps in "Smelly Nelly" so again just curious. Thanks.

[Sixgun]

28 grains of 5744 with the Lyman 457124---1250 -1300 fps. I think its the 457124. I'm too lazy to run down to the dungeon. Its the 385-400 (depending on alloy) grain RN with a mess of lube grooves. There's also the 500 grain version but I never messed with that one.--------------Sixgun

[M. M. Wright]

No one has bothered to mention that a lot of factory loads in the early days were paper patched. Always or usually a dead soft, pure lead bullet with two layers of paper wrapped around it. Most buffalo hunter kits I have seen contained a brass template for cutting the patches. They didn't usually size the cases, just poured them nearly full of black powder and thumb seated the bullet against the powder. Worked pretty good in the Sharps and Remington rollers.

[KirkD]

No one has bothered to mention that a lot of factory loads in the early days were paper patched. Always or usually a dead soft, pure lead bullet with two layers of paper wrapped around it. Most buffalo hunter kits I have seen contained a brass template for cutting the patches. They didn't usually size the cases, just poured them nearly full of black powder and thumb seated the bullet against the powder. Worked pretty good in the Sharps and Remington rollers.

I wouldn't mind learning how to paper patch the 500 grainers. Is there a link somewhere?

[Ji in Hawaii]

I wouldn't mind learning how to paper patch the 500 grainers. Is there a link somewhere?

I forget where but recall reading that cigarette rolling paper is great for patching bullets too which I guess is technically rolling the bullet. Just don't smoke it except out your barrel.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/nicholas.w ... patch.html
http://www.lasc.us/brennan_4-4_paperpatchedbullets.htm

[KirkD]

Thanks for those links!

[Ben_Rumson]

Note these are Win. mfg. for the 1886 Win.

[damienph]

Trail Boss is a very bulky powder with a very high burn rate. The result is that it will nicely fill a case and give moderate velocities. Because of its very fast burn rate, however, it will generate a pretty sharp peak pressure spike, so make sure that you follow approved published loads for TB. Compare the peak pressure for TB compared to BP. I would not use it in an original 1886, though others say it is safe. Just call me cautious.

That is very interesting about the Trail Boss pressure spike. Thanks for sharing that. I really like Trail Boss but probably should be a little more careful how I use it.

[w30wcf]

Not only is the pressure rise very quick with Trail Boss but note the high pressure and lower velocity!
High - 36,900 - 1009 f.p.s
Low - 32,300 - 987 f.p.s.

Definitely way above Trapdoor pressure!!

(Kurt's data was originally presented a fellow on the ASSRA forum a few years back. He also showed a pressure trace of 4759 as shown below.)



w30wcf

[getitdone1]

The true muzzle velocity of the old black powder 405 gr load was what?

Seems 1330 is close to the true velocity of the old load but did they fudge to the high side with this number just like many of today's ammo manufacturers do?

This true 45-70, 400 gr velocity gets muddied when you compare civilian vs. military loadings, different manufacturers and also different barrel lengths.

I believe some of you have said that 1330-1350 velocities and 400 gr bullet 45-70 loads have worked very well on game animals. The penetration into water jugs with Remington factory 405 gr load was really impressive. 10 jugs! The 30-30 loaded with 170 gr Nosler Partition bullets went through 4 and I tried this load twice to be sure. Quite a difference. The energy produced by both of these loads is about the same.

I find it interesting that when the 30-30 first came-out many were surprised by it's killing power when compared to the 45-70 and similar cartridges. Of course the smaller/faster bullet was more explosive than the larger/slower 45-70 bullet. Believe the first 30-30 load used 160 gr bullet. Don't know how tough it was.

Don

[w30wcf]

getitdone1,

Winchester 1896 catalog shows 1,271 with black powder and 1,286 with smokeless.
Marlin 1896 catalog - 1,275 black powder
Winchester 1910 catalog - 1,317.6 no powder reference given
Winchester 1916 catalog - same
Winchester 1925 catalog - 1,320 no powder reference given

w30wcf