Let Me Get This Straight...??? (rant)

[Buck Elliott]

A whole PASSEL of you on this board can hardly wait for the next "NEW & IMPROVED" levergun to come down the Pike -- each "next" one built of the STRONGEST materials -- to the BEST design -- Made in the good-ol' USA -- with the BEST customer service -- in YOUR choice of caliber(s), and yet you nit-pick every last one to pieces, before it even makes it to the toy-store shelves...??????????????

I know -- I have my own thoughts on things, and I have years of experience and reasoning to back MOST of it up -- as do many of you. If we're so da^^ed smart, WE should be building the next generation of leverguns -- right...???

Some guys want a handy carbine in .458 Lott, while others can find NO USE for a levergun chambered to the newest, most-powerful revolver cartridges. How about a slim, little button-mag 18" woods gun in .264 Win Mag? Or a 26" full magazine rifle with a crescent buttplate bored out to .470 NE...? No... maybe .600 then...??? Maybe a nifty, compact pack rifle in .380 auto... complete with lever..?

Truth is, there are already enough different leverguns on the market to satisfy 99% + of the demand. They don't make your particular pipe-dream --- yet -- because they would sell only ONE -- to you, IF IT DIDN'T COST any more than a new Daisy Red Ryder BB gun... When one of us DOES come up with a new gun, the armchair critics start sniping at it before the ink is dry on the latest issue of SHOOTING & BLASTING. Very few are ever satisfied. And no one steps up to say "I'll help out -- How much do you need..."

I'm always amazed at the "Wish They'd Make" lists I see from time to time. Have common sense and practicality flown completely out the window, down the lane and beyond the borders of sanity...???

Methinks maybe so...

There's more, but I'm tired now...

[Cast Bullet Hunter]

Absolutely correct!!!!!!!

[arjunky]

If they only costed as much as a Red Ryder, I promise I will buy more than one

Byron

[Terry Murbach]

LISTEN TO THE ELLIOT FAMILY KID AS HE KNOWS IN SPADES WHEREOF HE SPEAKS, FOLKS !!

[Pete44ru]

[A whole PASSEL of you on this board can hardly wait for the next "NEW & IMPROVED" levergun to come down the Pike -- each "next" one built of the STRONGEST materials -- to the BEST design -- Made in the good-ol' USA -- with the BEST customer service -- in YOUR choice of caliber(s), ]

Yer missing sumptin' else, Buck - It's also gotta cost LESS than that beatup old thing that we bought twenty years ago !

.

[Chuck 100 yd]

But, If they only made....

[Bogie35]

I agree with you Buck. Everybody wanted a powerful mid-bore levergun. Yet, nobody bought the 356 Winchester until it was only found on dusty shelves. And, I see the 338 Marlin going the same way. Look at the new Marlin 1895SBL. It has a lot of what people were asking for, yet when it arrived on the scene, people immediately started to shoot it down. I see that Big Horn Armory rifle, and I think of all the guys who wanted a big 50 in a handy levergun. They would even include those cute little winky faces after their posts. Now that it's here, let's see who will support it.

If you wait until it is a marketing failure and available cheap on the used shelves, then you've done nothing to support the sport.

However, on a side note, what Winchester has done with their new ornamental editions of the 94 is not what anybody was asking for. I believe people have justifiably shot that one down.

bogie

[wilko]

The "made in the USA" goes out the window first i have noticed... that is only talk... than the whole "levergun" thing goes next when everybody grabs for their bolts... LOL

anyway.. i am a weird one anyway.. i just like 30-30's and my 45/70

[ursavus.elemensis]

Last I checked, this is STILL a FREE country and we are free to think what we want, say what we want, and WANT what we want. Since when does some self-important person have a right to dictate to me what I can think? This is a forum for discussing lever guns. What did you think people were going to talk about? Gee, maybe they'll talk about lever guns (now there's a big surprise, huh?) And, maybe they'll talk about what they like and what they don't like about models of lever guns that are offerred on the market for sale or what they'd like to see in a lever gun. But someone who does not share their view has to get all hot and bothered because people are talking about lever guns! Unbelievable, but apparently true.

Well, let me tell you something: I don't LIKE the new Winchester model 94's. Not one bit. I WANT a Winchester model 94 that is different from what FNH is making and selling. And, I WANT it to be sold for LESS MONEY than they're charging. That is what I THINK because that is what I, as a FREE AMERICAN, want to think! Maybe the communists and the other totalitarian dictators believe that the people should not be allowed to think whatever they want, and maybe those dictators can get away with stifling the public discourse, but they are ecaxtly that -- DICTATORS. Totally un-American.

[J Miller]

Buck,

I agree with you. About the only things I've "wished" for is a return to quality production of original designs at a reasonable price.
I couldn't care less about the 500 S&W in either S&W's gargantuan wheel gun or a new lever gun. I have no need nor desire for one. But more power to those who do.

I'd just like to be able to go buy a new Win 94 in 30-30 and be happy with my purchase. No have to take it home and retro fit it with an old style action and custom make a safety plug.

Yeah, we're free alright ..... compared to some countries maybe, compared to this country 100 years ago ... in a pigs eye.

Joe

[Leverdude]

You nailed it pretty much on the head Buck. Dont know why it upsets you but I do agree for the most part.

Regarding things not already out in production its always something a guy wants because he thinks it'd be better or even a bunch of guys want. But to make it & make it affordable theres a need for a wide acceptance and desire. Nobody is going to do the R&D, tool up & produce a gun because a few dozen or even a few hundred guys want it. They may tweek a current model & do a special run in a special config or calibre but thats about all you can expect. Most times "alot of guys" isn't enough guys to justify the investment.
IMO people who dont understand why it costs what it costs for a new 94 dont understand why Winchester belly flopped or discontinued the 92 & 86. None of them can make money at $400 a gun. Seems like a simple thing to understand to me.
When they think theres enough guys wanting them they make a run of 92, 86's & now I guess 94's and sell them for what they want for them. What someone wants to spend is a personal thing.
Personally I like lever actions & am fairly content with them in the niche they have always fit into, I lean towards Marlin for a number of reasons and am glad they are trying new things but not going out on a limb to do it. That said I'd be perfectly content with the chamberings from the turn of the 20th century.

[Hobie]

Last I checked, this is STILL a FREE country and we are free to think what we want, say what we want, and WANT what we want. Since when does some self-important person have a right to dictate to me what I can think? This is a forum for discussing lever guns. What did you think people were going to talk about? Gee, maybe they'll talk about lever guns (now there's a big surprise, huh?) And, maybe they'll talk about what they like and what they don't like about models of lever guns that are offerred on the market for sale or what they'd like to see in a lever gun. But someone who does not share their view has to get all hot and bothered because people are talking about lever guns! Unbelievable, but apparently true.

Well, let me tell you something: I don't LIKE the new Winchester model 94's. Not one bit. I WANT a Winchester model 94 that is different from what FNH is making and selling. And, I WANT it to be sold for LESS MONEY than they're charging. That is what I THINK because that is what I, as a FREE AMERICAN, want to think! Maybe the communists and the other totalitarian dictators believe that the people should not be allowed to think whatever they want, and maybe those dictators can get away with stifling the public discourse, but they are ecaxtly that -- DICTATORS. Totally un-American.

I think you mis-read the post.

[Beaker]

For a levergun that looks astetically pleasing with clean looks, shoots cleanly through anything as is easy to clean, maybe it should be made out of soap.

[Doc Hudson]

AWW hell Buck! You know how it is

You know good and well you couldn't satisfy some folks if you hung them with a new rope.

You know one common thread that runs through all the wish lists? Folks want the return of guns that were not a commercial success. It seems like gunmakers have a nasty habit of dropping unprofitable models just about the time they reach "Cult Status." We both know that if Ruger's Deerfield .44 RemMag Semi-auto Carbine had been as popular when it was on the market as it is now the derned thing would never have been pulled from the Ruger line.

The thing that puts a burr under my saddle is the customization madness. it seems like some folks just can't stand the idea of owning a gun that is just like a hundred thousand other guns. Everyone has to add some custom feature that makes their gun unique. And truth to tellus levergunners are gettting almost as bad in that respect as the M-1911 Fanatics. At least I've not yet heard of a lever-gunner sending a brand new, unfired rifle off to be customized and "improved" before they even shoot it the way some folks o with M-1911's.

you know Buck, I truly believe that 90% or more of these custom touches do nothing to improve function or accuracy. They just give the owners the warm fuzzies and the gun smiths a steady income.

Personally, I've not bought a NEW gun since 1996. Most of the new guns do't satisfy me so I stick to the used gun market and generally save money while buying the guns I like, just the way they are.

[Terry Murbach]

Last I checked, this is STILL a FREE country and we are free to think what we want, say what we want, and WANT what we want. Since when does some self-important person have a right to dictate to me what I can think? This is a forum for discussing lever guns. What did you think people were going to talk about? Gee, maybe they'll talk about lever guns (now there's a big surprise, huh?) And, maybe they'll talk about what they like and what they don't like about models of lever guns that are offerred on the market for sale or what they'd like to see in a lever gun. But someone who does not share their view has to get all hot and bothered because people are talking about lever guns! Unbelievable, but apparently true.

Well, let me tell you something: I don't LIKE the new Winchester model 94's. Not one bit. I WANT a Winchester model 94 that is different from what FNH is making and selling. And, I WANT it to be sold for LESS MONEY than they're charging. That is what I THINK because that is what I, as a FREE AMERICAN, want to think! Maybe the communists and the other totalitarian dictators believe that the people should not be allowed to think whatever they want, and maybe those dictators can get away with stifling the public discourse, but they are ecaxtly that -- DICTATORS. Totally un-American.

HOLY MOLY, THIS IS A T-TOTAL MISREADING OF WHAT BUCK WAS SAYING, ALMOST TO THE LAST BREATH.
BUCK DID NOT SAY THIS AT ALL !!!!!
BUCK DID NOT IMPLY THIS AT ALL !!!
JUST AS SOON AS YOU AGREE TO WORK FOR A LOT--A LOT !!!--LESS MONEY THAN YOU ARE MAKING NOW AND THEY FIND THIS OUT, YOU WILL BE ABLE TO DEMAND YOU WANT IT FOR A LOT LESS THAN THEY ARE SELLING 'EM FOR NOW. THIS ALSO IMPLIES ALL THE UNIONS AT ALL THE GUN COMPANIES AGREE TO A LARGE WAGE DECREASE THE SAME DAY. THIS ALSO IMPLIES YOU DO NOT--NOT !!! WANT ANY OF THE NEW GUNS MADE TO THE TIGHTEST TOLERENCES IN THIEIR HISTORY ON VERY EXPENSIVE CNC MACHINERY WHICH ALL COMPANIES HAVE INVESTED IN.
YEAH................RIGHT !!!!!!!!

[Bogie35]

I don't think "ursavus" understood the original post. I can appreciate Mr. Buck's years of effort in developing his excellent rifle design only to have a few dummies nitpick it to death.

You tell 'em Buck!!!

And it is so refreshing to see Terry engage with the caps locked and loaded!

Woo hoo!!! Now THIS is livin'!

bogie

[piller]

Buck, weren't you young and foolish once, too? You might not realize it, but there are those of us who are latecomers to the love of lever action firearms. Some of us are not nearly as knowledgeable about them as you are, and we sometimes don't realize that there are cartridges around which already do what we are looking for. Instead of getting mad at the folly of youth, I suggest that you get on the post and show a reasoned argument for something already available which will do the same thing or more. Allow us to learn from your knowledge rather than driving us away for not knowing whereof we speak.

[rjohns94]

Buck is more informed and more qualified than I am on this topic, but as I said in the other thread, I don't have a use for the 50 S&W but I would love a .475 Linebaugh take down lever to go with my FA in the same calber. (The 480 ruger I handled was kewl, but I didn't want a .475 special. And it wasnt a take down.) AND, I would pay for it!!! If I had the talent I would certainly set up a shop and make one ofs, and be darned what others thought of it except the customer. Until then, I am perfectly happy with the .457mag, .357mag, and .22lr levers I own.

[SteveR]

You know good and well you couldn't satisfy some folks if you hung them with a new rope.

lol I really like this one. Thanks Doc

Steve

[COSteve]

The grass is always greener . . . . . .

[Old Savage]

Love it Buck - everything that we need to be made has been made.

[adirondakjack]

Psst, This is what customs are for, making yer dream come true, as long as ya got the dough to make it happen. In my experience, nothing gets mass produced unless the return on investment works out. In the world of custom smithing, if you can dream it, and a smith can figure out HOW to make it, you can get it done. I have wittnessed some "it can't happen" scenarios turn into "well I'll be darned" when somebody decides it CAN happen and figures out how and/or pays the freight.

How about a marlin that will run .44 mag, .44 special and .44 russian, mix or match? (or .45 Colt, Schofield and Cowboy Special) A few mos ago I woulda said it can't happen. yet I dreamed it, and worked with another amateur smith to make it happen. We each have em now, and he's published the method so others are doing the mods as well. Never say never, but realize the corporate world has to make shareholders happy, (make money at it), and not invest in stuff they can't move LOTS of.

[J Miller]

Love it Buck - everything that we need to be made has been made.

If we never agree on any thing else, we can say we totally agree on this.

Maybe that's the problem. All of our lever guns can be traced back to the 1800s except for the BLR, Win 88 and that foreign one that looks like the Win 88. Could it be that the younger generations are bored with our old time stuff?

Joe

[Bogie35]

I believe that Buck was just venting some steam, and some people got offended. It reminds me that we are the "United States of the Offended" these days. The Kalifornia System has spread all across America.

bogie

[76/444]

Gentlemen, gentlemen,...gentlmen,... just get yourselves a 444 and all will be well!! No need to look any further!!

[AJMD429]

Have common sense and practicality flown completely out the window, down the lane and beyond the borders of sanity...???

Duhhhh - what do you think?

There's a REASON we're called "GUN NUTS". . .

[Doc Hudson]

The grass is always greener . . . . . .

Over the septic tank!

[CowboyTutt]

I've been waiting for someone to make a stronger levergun in 454 Casull (better than the Puma) for many years and I'm very glad to see Big Horn make their rifle. Who can complain about a 50 caliber levergun???? Hopefully the gun will also be chambered in the 460 which would make another fine levergun caliber. $1800 is not that expensive for what your getting either.

-Tutt

[piller]

Tutt, I do think that with good bullets, the .500 S&W should do the job on anything that walks. I have never paid more than $700 for any firearm. As with anything else, time will provide the best answer.

[FWiedner]

Everybody wanted a powerful mid-bore levergun. Yet, nobody bought the 356 Winchester until it was only found on dusty shelves.
bogie

Hi. My name is nobody.

I've been successfully killing critter things with my dusty old .356 Win since 1983.

[CowboyTutt]

Pillar, no arguments on how capable the 500 is. I wonder how heavy a bullet their twist rate can stabilize? Someone mentioned 700 grain bullets.....

FW knows a good thing when he sees it!!!

-Tutt

[fordwannabe]

I think Buck may have had a case like I do with my teenager it's not the first time I tell him something that gets me mad it's the 20th time and he still fouls it up. I am sure buck has more knowledge about leverguns than I will ever have and has poured hours into a design he loved and "fathered" to have it show up as someone else's kid. That would boil my potatoes, and then to have people with less experience "knock it" that might aggrevate me a little.I have another gun site I visited VERY OFTEN that I don't go to but about once a week because you can only answer the same question so often before it get to be too much. I also have to think that a lot of us don't know all the calibers and ballistics of the different guns. I have been using and enjoying guns since 1977 and you guy's start a thread about a round I never heard of, so I have to go look it up, but not everybody does that, and they may "need" a gun in this caliber or that claiber and not know something that is it's ballistic twin was available 20 or 60 years ago. If it isn't available over the counter at the local sporting good shop a lot of people don't know it exist, do you want to know how many times people don't know what a 33WCF is and these aren't just kids either.

[tman]

we have the .307, 356, and 450 . throw in the .444 and you got all u need to do anything you want with a 94. but nobody bought um, nobody wrote about. can't find ammo at the box stores. don't see any thing new coming along to change it. good post

[mikld]

Buck, take a dose of castor oil, a gun book, and go cool off in the outhouse. I read the post 3 times and it still comes off as an old curmudgen whining about what the younger generation "wants". I understand Mr. Elliot is a renouned expert here on this forum, but if I want a 32" bbl levergun chambered in 600 nitro Express, then that's what I want! If someone made one, and I could afford it, I'd buy it. Perhaps Mr. Elliot can educate me on what calibers, barrel lengths, actions, and stock designs are "acceptable" for my wish list?


P.S. I know Mr. Elliot is much loved here on this forum and I have much less experience than he, but please don't ban me for disagreeing with the Elder Statesman of Leverguns.com...

[Modoc ED]

Buck Elliot said:

When one of us DOES come up with a new gun, the armchair critics start sniping at it before the ink is dry on the latest issue of SHOOTING & BLASTING. Very few are ever satisfied. And no one steps up to say "I'll help out -- How much do you need..."

Sorry Buck but that does sound -- errrrrrrrrrrrr, read -- your frustration with trying to get your rifle off the ground.

Other than that your thread/rant is a pretty good read. Of course no matter how well built, how many bells and whistles a firearm has, someone will always want an extra bell or whistle or two.

[Idiot]

About the only thing that makes me mad about the new guns coming out, and a lot of the old guns too, it that I don't have enough money to buy 'em before they're discontinued or unavailable. I sure want one of them new white Marlin 45/70's with a green and gray plywood stock and over-sized lever, and, one of them abbreviated Ruger Redhawk 45 Colts.

Personally, I think we live in the golden age of gun manufacturing. The gun companies are responding to our wish lists (and daring us to put our money where our mouths are) and producing high quality firearms are very reasonable prices. Now I've just got to find a way to afford (read "wish") these new production "custom" firearms. Yeeeeehaaaaw!!!

[Buck Elliott]

Always the equal opportunity curmudgeon, that's me...

MOST of you get it -- some of you don't -- which is fine -- and to be expected. No offense meant or taken. This is still (this morning...) the US of A, and we're all entitled to our opinions, pro or con.

I also know that I'm not the only designer who has had insurmountable difficulties bringing a favorite project to production. It would SCARE you to know how many others in this industry are in the exact same boat. So that part of the rant doesn't include just Me... Not by a long shot.

Compare the price of a new levergun (actual value) to the price of a new pickup or family jalopy, and tell me you still demand a $400. Model '94... Ain't gonna happen. Just because they were $59.95 when I was a kid (when Dad was making $0.65 an hour...) does not lead me to expect one for anything NEAR that price now.

And to those who have lamented the fact that the manufacturers aren't paying attention: I agree. BUT --Almost every firearms maker I can think of is so hide-bound by bean counters and the current, general economic malaise that they're really in a rut. The business has NOT attracted the best & brightest of engineers. The current crop of graduates all want to be involved in "cutting-edge" research, and see firearms design as an exercise in (literally) reinventing the wheel. add to that the fact that the vast majority of them are of a decidedly LIBERAL philosophical bent, and you see that the newly-minted Engrs. are not attracted to the firearms industry. Obama and his minions lurking behind every bush don't engender much market confidence either...

There is a lot of room for "custom" guns in this business. Add-ons and modifications are seen everywhere. But if only 15 or 20 of the "enlightened" will pay for and use a specific mod, it just isn't worth making a whole production run of that mod... Which will dry-rot on dealers' shelves from coast to coast.

Just some things to think about, before you ask "why won't they...???"

[milton]

I recently lost my job due to the notion of companies having to run EVERYTHING by the bottom line !! Bean counters and no true concern for a quality product!Quality control now is based on what you describe as what you manufacture;if you gnat to make garbage and describe it so your quality control is perfect as long as you make THAT kind of garbage described. Buck is dead on here!! I have seen engineers come into the business that had NO experience and knew next to nothing and they replaced people that knew what was going on!They have the attitude that the old experienced guys are stupid and they WILL re-invent the wheel!!!They have a computer mind and do not have a handle on how things really work and if there were not capable men actually doing the work the companies would absolutely fail.

[Buck Elliott]

Thinking through this thing critically, i have determined that an EXACT duplicate (albeit better steel) of an early 1920s-vintage Model '94 Winchester would cost (MSRP) $895.00, if made by Miroku. Made in USA, it would run $1175.00 -- if it could be made here at all.

CNC machines notwithstanding, there was a lot of handwork in a '94 or '92 -- even more in an '86.

Engineers today come out of school with a "line/angle/circle segment" mentaility. All the beautiful progressive and/or compound curves that make a classic levergun a joy to behold and a love affair to handle are still possible with the new technology, but are design-intensive, and the manufacturers are less-apt to spend money on such "frivolities..."

I can still dream, can't I...?

[tman]

Thinking through this thing critically, i have determined that an EXACT duplicate (albeit better steel) of an early 1920s-vintage Model '94 Winchester would cost (MSRP) $895.00, if made by Miroku. Made in USA, it would run $1175.00 -- if it could be made here at all.

CNC machines notwithstanding, there was a lot of handwork in a '94 or '92 -- even more in an '86.

Engineers today come out of school with a "line/angle/circle segment" mentaility. All the beautiful progressive and/or compound curves that make a classic levergun a joy to behold and a love affair to handle are still possible with the new technology, but are design-intensive, and the manufacturers are less-apt to spend money on such "frivolities..."

I can still dream, can't I...?

sounds reasonable. but the vast majority of hunters want a boltaction 300 super long range magnum shooting depleted uranium bullets that blow a whitetail to smithereens at 900 yards. the levers always sold for less than the bolts. ain't hard to find new boltactions fitting this description for under a grand. not enough buyers for the product. simple economics.

[Ben_Rumson]

Bull’s Eye there Buck...For the level of quality we’re talking about here, I think these would fair prices ... maybe even a bargain!!...and I’d be on one in a minute! You don’t want to pay for it, then get what’s out there now and quit your whining!

[Hankster]

I work in the auto parts industry these days.. we get people all the time who beef and bit@# that we "don't have a part for my car" available..... well you bought a low volume selling car... or one that only used that type of part for 1 or 2 model years.. thus the market does NOT support the cost to tool up, reproduce, warehouse, sell and distribute a part with such a "low sales volume potential"...... I think THIS is the point trying to be made..... that and if someone DOES do so, people nitpick it to death in "amateur revues"....it's not "perfect" enough.... so why bother??? sure, you can buy an original.... you can have one custom made..... but to expect someone to put out the oddball part you want at the PRICE you'd like is pie in the sky wasted time dreaming.... I think that was the gist of it....

[KWK]

each "next" one built of the STRONGEST materials -- to the BEST design -- Made in the good-ol' USA -- in YOUR choice of caliber(s)

Naw, if I buy a newly manufactured levergun, it will likely have been made in Italy. That's were all the most interesting designs are being built. No, they don't always come with the best customer service. Yes, they don't make one exactly the way I want it, but that's what keeps the custom 'smiths in business, and I'll be using their services on 3 single shots over the next 2 years or so.

[RKrodle]

When it comes to manufacturing anything the bottom line is PRODUCTION. Everything else is secondary. I install and repair CNC machines for a living. You would not believe how a lot of companies treat a $500,000.00, or more, machine and then expect it to hold tight tolerance. I know that a rifle can be made on modern CNC equipment and have interchangeability in parts. BUT, it ain't cheap and not fast enough to make a $400.00 dollar 94. Programing time, fixture design, tooling all have to be figured into it. You can't use cheap equipment to do it. It's not that hard to hold a half thou tolerance on a part the size of a receiver. But to do it day in and day out at a production rate so as to make it affordable is a different story. It can still be done but you have to have quality equipment and that's comes at a price. So you can use cheap equipment and do a lot of time consuming and costly hand fitting or, you can pluck down a MIL or so and get quality stuff. Either way it's still going to be costly and that cost is passed on to the consumer. There are so many things that go into taking a chunk of metal and turning out a finished part that it is mind numbing. The investment cost alone for start up is just plain scary.

[Buck Elliott]

PERZACKLEY...

[Doc Hudson]

... the vast majority of hunters want a boltaction 300 super long range magnum shooting depleted uranium bullets that blow a whitetail to smithereens at 900 yards. the levers always sold for less than the bolts. ain't hard to find new boltactions fitting this description for under a grand. not enough buyers for the product. simple economics.

Now you've hit on one of my pet peeves!!!!!

Brand new Nimrods who take to the field in search of the long range shot!! They give me a severe case of the runs!

What happened to hunter ethics? What became of the truism:"A real hunter stalks as close as he can get, then belly crawls 50 yards closer." What happened to the goal of giving game powderburns as well as bullet holes?

I've actually heard fools say, "I don't think it is sporting to take a shot closer than 500 yards." What is so darned sporting about throwing a shot at a critter in the next county that doesn't even know it is being hunted?

I'd better stop before I go into full rant mode and totally highjack
the thread.

[Alan Wood]

... the vast majority of hunters want a boltaction 300 super long range magnum shooting depleted uranium bullets that blow a whitetail to smithereens at 900 yards. the levers always sold for less than the bolts. ain't hard to find new boltactions fitting this description for under a grand. not enough buyers for the product. simple economics.

Now you've hit on one of my pet peeves!!!!!

Brand new Nimrods who take to the field in search of the long range shot!! They give me a severe case of the runs!

What happened to hunter ethics? What became of the truism:"A real hunter stalks as close as he can get, then belly crawls 50 yards closer." What happened to the goal of giving game powderburns as well as bullet holes?

I've actually heard fools say, "I don't think it is sporting to take a shot closer than 500 yards." What is so darned sporting about throwing a shot at a critter in the next county that doesn't even know it is being hunted?

I'd better stop before I go into full rant mode and totally highjack
the thread.

Not sporting to take a shot closer than 500 yards. Why do I suspect most who agree with that couldn't hit the broad side of a barn at 500 yards! Grr

[Bogie35]

...or 50, for that matter.

Generally speaking, if I can't get to within 100 yards, I simply don't shoot. Although, I'm sure my 35 Rem is good to well past 150. In South Carolina, it's everything I could possibly need out to 150 yards.

bogie

[KSRtrd]

I go out shoot at the range and the folks there, most of em can't get on the paper at 100 yards, thats using a bench use some pretty high dollar stuff. I know my limits and will hunt with a levergun and or shotgun. I know that I might not outsmart the critter and stalk within my ability to make a clean hit then again, I won't leave a wounded animal to suffer. Quality experiences is what make our lives worth while.

[Travis Morgan]

If they only costed as much as a Red Ryder, I promise I will buy more than one

Byron

You'd do like the rest of us cheap bastards and wait until you could find 'em on the used market to save money!