30-30 Stuff

[JimT]

I was thinking of using the 30-30 I am working on for deer this Fall. I mentioned that and had a young man tell me that, while the old 30-30 may have worked years ago, today they did not have enough power for deer. The deer are much tougher these days. He started naming some of the more modern and more powerful calibers I should use.

I thought for a minute and said, "You could be right. I once hunted Whitetail with a 454 Casull. It was too powerful because I blew a deer clean in half with it! The bad thing was, both halves got away!"

-Silence-

Then he turned and walked away.

[Merle]

I was thinking of using the 30-30 I am working on for deer this Fall. I mentioned that and had a young man tell me that, while the old 30-30 may have worked years ago, today they did not have enough power for deer. The deer are much tougher these days. He started naming some of the more modern and more powerful calibers I should use.

I thought for a minute and said, "You could be right. I once hunted Whitetail with a 454 Casull. It was too powerful because I blew a deer clean in half with it! The bad thing was, both halves got away!"

-Silence-

Then he turned and walked away.

wish I could have seen that!!!

[crs]

Good one.
It is probably best to not take comments from the uninformed too seriously.

[TraderVic]

Yep, kinda makes you stop, scratch your head and wonder about the new generation of "experts".

I'm guessing some of you have heard of the Jordan Buck, shot by Jim Jordan in 1914 just outside of Danbury, WI. This whitetail buck held the world record for many years before a larger one was recorded.
Anyway, Jim Jordan was carrying an 1892 Winchester 25/20 (because it's what he had to use) and downed this buck with several shots, the second one broke its' back.
Nope, don't recommend a 25/20 for deer, but in the hands of a skilled woodsman, it worked for Jim Jordan. Imagine if he would have had a 30-30 ?

[piller]

Due to my not being an expert, I would like to know when deer were genetically modified to become too tough for a .30-30 to kill them. Does anyone have any facts on the space alien run breeding program which made the improvements on deer? How exactly was kevlar made to become part of the DNA?

[piller]

A little closer to reality now. In my limited experience, deer still go down to a properly placed shot from most of the calibers which were common in the late 1800s. Why use a 7mm Rem Mag to ruin half the meat on one of our small-ish Texas deer? Most of the time, we pay for a deer lease here. The shooting distances are within the capability of a pistol in many cases. You do not really need 2,000 foot pounds of muzzle energy to kill a 130 pound deer within 75 yards of you.

[FWiedner]

Due to my not being an expert, I would like to know when deer were genetically modified to become too tough for a .30-30 to kill them.

It's was about the same time that week-end woodmen ceased the regular practice of marksmanship.

[gamekeeper]

A lot of what we buy these days is said to be " New and Improved " I didn't know Wildlife was included in that....

[GunnyMack]

So you can only hunt NON-GMO deer, better get some high power binoculars so you can read the label !

[gcs]

There's an Aussie guy on the Marlin site a few years ago that was shooting, and killing, "brush bulls" or, feral cattle of the male variety, , with a 30-30 and 150 gr factory loads.

While maybe not the largest bulls in existence, A bull is a VERY tough customer, yet they still died when hit with the puny 30-30....I guess that guy never got the memo....

[AJMD429]

My grandfather, who I inherited a marlin 1889 in 32-20 from, died before I was born, but I’m pretty sure he used that rifle to successfully hunt deer in the 1890’s and early 1900’s.

He was quite the outdoorsman and probably got close to the deer and placed his shots precisely.

An animal can be killed with any shot that disrupts the brain stem or upper spine, makes a large hole in the thorax causing loss of vacuum, causes extensive bleeding, causes severe infection, or impairs the animal sufficiently that it cannot forage or cannot escape predators.

Any of the first three will usually result in a humane and fairly rapid death.

Hitting the central nervous system requires very accurate shot placement in an animal that’s not moving, as well as enough penetration to get through whatever bone is in the way. If you are attempting such a shot, and miss, you can make a debilitating neck wound, blow off a mandible, and so on, so personally I don’t think those are ethical hunting shots, unless the deer in question has a knife to the neck of a hostage.

Making a large hole in the thorax is pretty easy, because there’s a large area to hit, and you usually won’t destroy much meat other than a few bites of ribs. Plus, a miss is not only less likely due to the larger area, but shooting high is likely to down the animal with a spine shot, shooting low or too far forward is often a minor wound, and to the rear is still likely to cause enough bleeding to down the animal soon even though it may be harder to track than a chest wound. Large caliber leverguns (‘rifle’ or ‘pistol’ caliber) are perfect for that.

Shooting to cause extensive hemorrhage is pretty much the same thing as shooting the thorax, because any shot penetrating heart or lungs is going to cause rapid bleeding. The pelvic area and abdomen have plenty of large vessels as well, but since the blood tends to stay in the abdominal cavity, tracking is gonna be a problem, plus you get quite a bit of bacteria turned loose in contact with the meat if you penetrate the GI tract. In addition, if you try to shoot the pelvis you’re likely to destroy a lot of hindquarter meat.

A 30-30 doesn’t fit the “large caliber” criteria, but even a 30 caliber hole is going to cause bleeding and trouble breathing if it’s in the thorax. Plus a good quality bullet will expand and make a larger exit hole, and when delivered with a 30-30 instead of 300 Remington Ultra Mag, it’s not going to destroy much meat in the process even if it goes through a shoulder.

On a sidenote, I have to laugh when people say they prefer a 32 caliber rifle to a 30 caliber because the extra diameter makes a bigger hole. Most of the 32 caliber bullets are 0.312” or so, versus 0.308”. Maybe when it comes to machining or head spacing, 0.004” of an inch is significant, but I can’t imagine that four thousands of an inch makes much difference when it comes to a bullet hole in living tissue...!

[ollogger]

Trader Vic I do think that the Jordan buck was over 400 lbs, long time ago i read that in one of the outdoor magazines


ollogger

[TraderVic]

Trader Vic I do think that the Jordan buck was over 400 lbs, long time ago i read that in one of the outdoor magazines


ollogger

I'll poke around and grab whatever facts I can find on the Jordan Buck (aka the Danbury Buck). It was a huge buck by any standards. The head was mounted and has been scored.

[Grizz]

Doc, I've made lots of spine and head shots... with rifles and hand guns... DRT every time. The possibility of a misplaced shot exists regardless of what the aim point is. Aim small hit small is a recipe. I was standing in a dory, in a light chop, and put a deer down on the beach with an open sighted 308. It struggled once and got half way up. The second shot entered a bullet width from the first one. I never discourage anyone from headshots unless I know they can't hit the same spot twice. Then I recommend they try for the wide side and hope someone can finish a wounded animal...

[FLINT]

I personally have had phenomenal success with the 30-30. I've shot more deer with the 30-30 than any other weapon or caliber, and the overwhelming majority drop either instantly or within sight. I've never lost one. Distances ranged from 20-100 yards. You will have a very hard time convincing me that there is a better all around deer caliber under 100 yards than the 30-30. Sure, maybe a 444 would hit them harder, but it also hits you a lot harder and just isn't necessary. I'm all for people using whatever makes them happy, but I really think that at least for the type of hunting I do (eastern forest whitetails) the 30-30 is the Goldilocks of deer cartridges - plenty of smack down without being too much.

[Grizz]

Flint, good points. Perfect for your situation.

If I hunted in a place with no apex predators that can outrun a quarter horse and bite off my head, I could be happy with my 30-30. Which I think I have shot. Once.


I think people forget that the 30-30 shoots the same bullets as the 308, 30-06, 300wm, and others.

it's like a down-loaded 30-06, OR a 30-06 turns into a 30-30 at the end of it's velocity range.

the thing that counts is the result at the business end of the projectile

[COSteve]

Done

[piller]

My skill level is not as high as it once was. Work schedules have made it tough to get much practice in. I can still put all 6 shots out of my Marlin 336 into a 100 yard group that I can cover with the palm of my hand. Not quite as good as I used to be. PillHer's JM 336 with the scope will keep all 6 Core-Lokt 150 grain in a 1.5 inch circle at 100 yards all day long. That rifle just doesn't miss. After she had the stock cut down for her, it has been a 1 shot kill on all of the deer it was used on. She has not hunted with it for 20 years.

[stretch]

Interesting discussion.

I have theory about 19th century engineering.

A lot of old bridges and buildings made during that time are still standing.
Why? Because they were engineered correctly. Stuff that wasn't
correctly designed has already fallen down.

I think the 30-30 falls into that well-designed category, as well as slightly later cartridges
like the 30-06, 303 Enfield, and 7.62x54R. Same with firearms like the
Henry, 94 Winchester, 1911, Mosin-Nagant, M2, etc... They just work, and
work well because they were correctly engineered in the first place. Both
the cartridges and guns may have been refined and improved over the years,
but the basic platforms remain the same.

-Stretch

[gundownunder]

I've heard rumors about the American Indians hunting game like deer, elk, and bison before the white man came to America.
I often wonder how they did that, considering the 300 WinMag wasn't invented until 1963, and anything less than that wouldn't have been up to the task.

[Rusty]

Talking to a LGS owner a few years ago he told me the American hunter is the most over gunned hunter in the world. We have people walking around Florida with 7mm Mags, 300 Win Mags and the like. On top of that they will pick one box of ammo over another because the maker says it has 40 FPS more speed.

[3leggedturtle]

Jim, ss usual you tell a great story and conversation. Had an "old" gent tell me a 6.5 Swede had no range or power, so I asked him how were the Swedes and Fins still able to kill thousands of Moose with it each year. He had a very illogical answer I cant repeat!

[COSteve]

Done

[Bill in Oregon]

And to top it all off, the good old .30 WCF makes a wonderful cast boolit rifle -- especially with a deer killer such as the RCBS 30-180 FN.

[Scott Tschirhart]

I saw a Winchester ad from back in the old days where they were promoting a .32-20 as a deer cartridge.

My brother and I started shooting deer with a 110 grain soft point in an M-1 Carbine that dad bought for $15 from an ad in the American Rifleman. We didn't lose any deer, but the ranges were short.

I shot my deer this weekend with a revolver pushing a 280 grain cast bullet at about 1000fps. I don't think the bullet even slowed down while passing through.

[piller]

Scott, those 70 pound Texas deer would barely slow a .22 lr down. OK, some of them go as big as 80 pounds.

[JimT]

Scott, those 70 pound Texas deer would barely slow a .22 lr down. OK, some of them go as big as 80 pounds.

The buck we butchered last weekend yielded 34 pounds of boneless meat.
If the meat was 20 - 22% of its weight, that deer weighed somewhere around 150 to 160 pounds

We are on the San Gabriel River. There are some good size deer here.

[Sixgun]

The Russians killed 4,000 Polish officers with the 25 a.c.p......one shot each from what I've read.

In all normal hunting cartridges...excluding monsters like the 378 Weatherby ......the ones that kill the most thoroughly with a well placed shot within 150 yards or so are the rounds that propel a 30 to 35 caliber bullet of proper weight for the caliber 2000-2400 fps.

I know I've killed a truckload of deer and a few elk with the 33 Winchester and never lost one.

The old 30-40 Krag is near the top of the list, if not the top. Others include the 30-30, 32 Spl, 33 Winchester, 35 Remington, 303 Savage and the like.....from what I've read, once the velocity goes above 2400 weird things happen.....with the advent of partition bullets this theory/practice may be outdated. -----6

[Griff]

Simply put... the .30-30 is magical! It possess the right combination of speed and selection of bullet weights for excellent transference of its energy to what it hits.

[piller]

Scott, those 70 pound Texas deer would barely slow a .22 lr down. OK, some of them go as big as 80 pounds.

The buck we butchered last weekend yielded 34 pounds of boneless meat.
If the meat was 20 - 22% of its weight, that deer weighed somewhere around 150 to 160 pounds

We are on the San Gabriel River. There are some good size deer here.

For Texas, those are gargantuan. No wonder so many of the gun store commandos need a 7mm Rem Mag.

[long_steve]

Guns don't kill deer, people do, and some people kill them better than others. In reality, it's somewhat little to do with cartridges and loads. I think what's missing nowadays is a lot of the mentoring that used to go on. I've heard all sorts of nonsense like JimT wrote about in his original post here. Really, it's not that most of us wouldn't be willing to bring new people up in the community. I think the fault lies with people going to social media and platforms like YouTube for information. If the young and inexperienced gravitate towards this stuff it's easy to see how peoples heads can get completely filled with nonsense before they're even dressed for the outdoors. There's just no substitute for exposure to knowledgeable, experienced shootists and seasoned, ethical hunters.

[Scott Tschirhart]

Scott, those 70 pound Texas deer would barely slow a .22 lr down. OK, some of them go as big as 80 pounds.

Deer are somewhat bigger in Texas now than they were then, at least in my region. But I get your point.

[Scott Tschirhart]

I know I've killed a truckload of deer and a few elk with the 33 Winchester and never lost one.

once the velocity goes above 2400 weird things happen.....with the advent of partition bullets this theory/practice may be outdated. -----6

You may be onto something there. I've had mixed experiences with the .223 on deer. After shooting 5 of them, I will not shoot another deer with a .223 unless I absolutely have to. I haven't lost one, but I really do not like tracking a very faint blood trail. Even with very good shot placement and modern "Barnes" bullets, I am not happy with the results.

Conversely, every deer I have shot with a .45-70 or .50-70 either dropped right there or fell within a few yards of where they were shot.

[FWiedner]

.

There was a period in my life wherein I believed that the .30-30 was not a good deer rifle. It was just too much gun for the job.

I was maybe 18 yo and hunting down in the hills SW of San Antonio around Bandera and an unfortunate spike buck crossed my path.

I put one round behind his left shoulder, and down he went. When I went down the hill to fetch that deer, there was a hole in the off-side of that animal that a softball would have got lost in.

I told my young self then and there that I would never hunt a deer using a .30-30 again. It was a spectacular mess.

Time goes by. My older self has accumulated a bit more knowledge on the subjects of projectile and wound ballistics, i.e., why things happen.

I like the .30-30 as an all-around hunter. Mostly I like the firearms that use the .30-30. I stick pretty much to hog hunting these days, and among the several leverguns that I dedicate to this pursuit, the .30-30 does the job when I do mine.

[octagon]

Piller, 70 or 80 lb Texas deer? The hill country deer are fairly small, I take it you've not hunted S or W Texas, last good deer I weighed at my place field dressed at 168 lbs. (W texas).

[piller]

No, I have not hunted West Texas for deer. The ones around the Dallas area are about the size of a Collie, but with the genetic crossing to have antlers which are large.

[Ray]

Deleted.

[t.r.]

I've been fortunate to have hunted in many states within USA due to my USAF assignments. 30-30 hunters have been encountered from the coastal mountains of northern California to the saw grass open country of Florida. To state that 30-30 rifles are popular is an understatement. I am a huge fan because it does such a great job with moderate recoil, deep penetration, very good accuracy, and affordable ammo. I typically zero my scope sighted Mossberg model 464 for right on at 150 yards. But my kill shots are usually at about 125 yards or less.

TR

[COSteve]

Done

[stretch]

I think the fault lies with people going to social media and platforms like YouTube for information. If the young and inexperienced gravitate towards this stuff it's easy to see how peoples heads can get completely filled with nonsense before they're even dressed for the outdoors. There's just no substitute for exposure to knowledgeable, experienced shootists and seasoned, ethical hunters.

Surfing YouTube, social media, and staring at a computer screen are NOT actually LIVING......
There is absolutely no substitute for experience.

As the man said, they don't take the place of bread and beans.

-Stretch

[OldWin]

My son lives in Kodiak Alaska. He has a lot of free time and is always out humping around the countryside. Many times, his 2 year old son. Is with him.
His constant companion is a 20" 94 carbine in 30-30. His decision is completely practical, without a hint of sentiment.
Like he told me, it's more effective than any handgun made. It's right in your hands where it needs to be, but its easy to carry or draw from a scabbard. He can sling it over a shoulder while fishing, keep it in a scabbard over the seat of his Jeep, or have it in his hand. It consistently hits steel at 200yds.
He has many guns, including ARs, but the old 94 is his house gun too. It still does what it was designed to do back in 1894.
Like he said, all you hear about is the bears, but 90% of the time they aren't a problem. If one is, he knows the 94 will be WITH him and ready fast, which is more important than a bigger rifle back in the truck.

He can't be alone. He said there isn't one box of 30-30 shells in a store on Kodiak. When he was home this month, he raided old dad's stash.

[piller]

OldWin, your son is a very wise man. He seems to have made a choice in personal protection which very well fits the potential need based upon where he lives and which threats are likely. Back about a year ago at the Academy Sports and Outdoors store near me, they had probably 50 bolt action rifles on display, and only about 3 lever action rifles on display. Within a 2 hour or more drive of me the hunting distances are seldom over 100 yards. Usually shorter.

[OldWin]

OldWin, your son is a very wise man. He seems to have made a choice in personal protection which very well fits the potential need based upon where he lives and which threats are likely. Back about a year ago at the Academy Sports and Outdoors store near me, they had probably 50 bolt action rifles on display, and only about 3 lever action rifles on display. Within a 2 hour or more drive of me the hunting distances are seldom over 100 yards. Usually shorter.

Haha yeah. He is a tough monkey, and a survivor. In the Coast Guard, they call him "cockroach".
Here is a pic of me on top of Old Woman Mt. with his 94 carbine this past summer. The week after we left, a guy got knawed on a little, on Pinnacle Mt. just outside town. We were there too, but we had the old carbine.