Black Rifles

[brucew44guns]

I've got many levers--love them all, but I have strayed just a bit, and would appreciate you guys giving me free info. I want a .223 AR. I can spend up to a grand or so, maybe 1100. I think I want a Colt---maybe it's just the name. My FFL neighbor wants me to buy a LMT (Lewis Machine Tool) AR, son-in-law thinks a Ruger must come to my house. I am starting to not want a black rifle now, too many choices that seem un-important. Help me out, you guys are the greatest opinion holders on the planet.

[Ysabel Kid]

Hi Bruce!

That's the "problem" with the AR platform - so many choices. I have a DPMS and like it. The Ruger wasn't out when I got mine, but that would have been very tempting. Like everything else, especially with firearms, you really do get what you pay for. That being said, no reason why you can't get a nice AR-15 for less than a grand.

Good luck!

[Tycer]

http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... se#p571468

http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... se#p701867

Read MrMurphy and Paladin's posts and don't look any further. If you are going to buy a rifle like that I would buy one built for service use not civilian. Pretty bare bones too for me. I don't have one cause I already stocked 7.62x39. I've thought long and hard about an AR. I think I'd go with Daniel Defense if I bought one.

[Pete44ru]

.

My opinion, worth every cent you pay for it, is that I'm less than interested in buying an AR, having had my fill of them while I was in the military, 40-odd yerars ago.

Further, my leverguns weigh about half the weight of an AR, at 1/3 the cost.

.

[MrMurphy]

Colt is the benchmark. You can pick up a typical 6920 (effectively, the military M4 with an extra 1.5" barrel and no burst option) or a 6720 (variation on the same gun) for $900-1k at Walmart. It won't necessarily have all the bells and whistles (freefloat fore-end, etc), but it's a very effective and capable rifle, especially with any kind of optic on it.


LMT makes the M203 grenade launchers for the military. They make EXCELLENT ARs, but can at times be hard to find, or be a bit more expensive. If you can find an LMT for about a grand, you won't be disappointed.


You can find anything in an AR from 24" heavy barrel to 10.5" SBRs (legally restricted), fixed stocks and bipods to collapsing stocks and slings. 20X scopes or irons. And with an upper switch, or even less, you can do all that to the same gun fairly quickly.

A 16" carbine or 20" rifle with irons will get the job done well, and reliably. Add an optic for even more versatility.

Things to remember:

Lube it. As one trainer noted, "Carbines, like women, run better wet". You don't have to go crazy with it, but you don't want to run it totally dry. That said, I've put 400+ dirty blanks, much of it on full auto, through an M16A2E3 that was bone dry and it ran fine. Not optimal, but it was what I had at the moment for an exercise.

Sort of like 1911s, where "everyone makes one" but not all are of the same quality.....same issue in the AR world.

[7.62 Precision]

I prefer LMT for the balance of quality and price. They are one of those rifles that just feels like it is made right. After a while, you can feel it with any type of rifle.

Colts are great. I prefer LMT, but have a couple Colts. Whatever anyone says, the roughest quality carbines I have seen were issue Colt M4s. In some cases their LE/civilian-market rifles tend to be finished a little nicer than military contract weapons, I think.

Daniel Defense is fine, too, as is Bravo Company.

I will take an LMT when I have a choice - I like what they did to the bolt, I like the quality, and on there personal side, they square me away when I needed an SPR upper, and I used one of their uppers in combat. Hand me a Colt or DD or any brand that is proven to be reliable, and I will take it into combat without worry.

You are looking in the right price range for the combination of quality and price. If you go above this price range for a basic carbine or rifle, you are spending money needlessly. If a Noveske cross or a Les Bauer name on the side of the magwell is important enough to you, then by all means, spend the money for the logo. Otherwise, there is nothing worth spending more on there.

If you want a Colt, get a Colt and don't look back. Others can squabble over whether DD or Colt or LMT is better, but you should have a good, solid weapon, and if someone else likes a different brand better, who cares? As long as you have what you prefer, you are good to go.

If you want to try an LMT, let me know - I might be able to save you some money, if I can convince my wife to let me sell another rifle at no profit.
However, if the Colt name appeals to you, go for it. You are not compromising on quality to get the logo you like.

Dealers love ARs, because there are so many unimportant options. Sell a guy an AR, and you can sell him stuff for it for years. It is best to buy a solid rifle or carbine, keep it simple and light, stick with what works, and let everyone else spend their time and money worrying about having the latest cool toys for their ARs.

[7.62 Precision]

.
Further, my leverguns weigh about half the weight of an AR, at 1/3 the cost.

The leverguns I like most cost more than most ARs.

Most of my ARs are in the same weight range as most of my leverguns.

[Grizz]

MrMurphy

when you say run wet, can you be specific?

3 drops of 3-in-One?

spritz of WD-40?

squirt of hairspray?

none of the above?

thanks

[Streetstar]

The choice is easy and your gut was right the first time --- Colt 6920 all the way

You wont get any better for the price and its easy to get worse

[MrMurphy]

Well, someone once (on a bet) made an AR run on Vagisil.....


Break-Free CLP is the old school military issue answer. Generally speaking, I use enough so the bolt is "damp but not dripping", usually some on the bottom of the carrier, the bolt itself, and the charging handle, and a drop in the holes on the side of the bolt group itself.

It's far from perfect, but aside from cold weather, it works "well enough".

Once I finally used up my apparently endless supply of CLP (which took about 10 years) I switched over to Slip 2000. For running a gun hard in bad conditions, it stays on better, and works better as a lubricant. Fireclean has gotten excellent reviews by others who run their guns hard on the two-way range, but I haven't tried it yet.

For my purposes, CLP or SLIP will get the job done. For most typical AR shooters, CLP will do the job, you can experiment with others if you like.

If the gun is filthy (as in, caked on carbon all over the bolt carrier and bolt), squirt a decent helping on, rack the bolt a few times and get back to work.

Taken to the extreme (for demonstration purposes), there is Filthy 14:
http://www.slip2000.com/blog/s-w-a-t-ma ... filthy-14/

I won't post the entire article, but the gun ran 31,000+ rounds, without cleaning, just lube, and a few replacement parts. Under simulated combat conditions (not off a bench).

He's got another couple in use that have run up at least 10-12,000 rounds with nothing but lube as well for testing purposes.

I've never exceeded around 1,000-1,200 without at least a bolt group wipe down in training sessions, but it can happen. A former coworker (infantry) stated that during a running 3 day engagement in Afghanistan he expended a double ammo load (14 magazines, about 420 rounds) twice, without having time to do more than yank the BCG, wipe it down and reinsert it with lube. They were either shooting, moving, evacuating casualties, etc.....he didn't have time to sit down and break the whole gun down.

On the other side of things, I've seen an "unjammable" AK or two lock up from fine sand. Hard to do, but not impossible.

[M. M. Wright]

The Cheaper Than Dirt catalogue I got last month had Colt ARs for $749. Didn't pay much attention but noticed while at the Wanamacher last week that is a good price.

[brucew44guns]

Just as I figured---you guys gave me a lot to think about, and it's appreciated. Probably will get a LMT---just because my neighbor bud sells them and he does not rob me on stuff. The rifle will be for plinking and amusement mostly, I'm a collector and acquirer more than a hard core shooting enthusiast, mostly I suppose due to not having shooting buds near here. But I'm in the heart of Kansas wheat field country, lots of ground right out back to shoot all I want, so an AR just has some appeal to me right now. Thanks for all your input. I'll post back here when I get one.

[jdad]

7.62,
I'm going to disagree with you. There is more to a Noveske than just a "cross" and you know it. I do agree that if you just want an AR that goes "bang" every time, then a Colt or S&W is ideal. Precision comes at a price.

Bruce,

Lots of inexpensive AR's and the shipping is very low also.
http://www.nwarmory.com/

[Streetstar]

7.62,
I'm going to disagree with you. There is more to a Noveske than just a "cross" and you know it. /

They spec a great barrel , but other than that -- the heart and soul is the rough equivalent of any other "milspec" rifle , unless you start adding the bells and whistles

A precision barrel on a combat/defense oriented M4 profiled carbine is akin to putting heated leather seats in an F-150 --- its a nice option, but wholly unnecessary for the mission parameters

dont blame you for supporting a local manufacturer though - i have used their products in the past as well

[Chuck 100 yd]

I have two now that work and shoot great.
That said,I am going to check out the new Ruger AR556. You cant build one for the
<$600 they will be selling for. A dealer in Portland has a bunch of them,special allotment? I believe he has them for $585.00
http://www.ruger.com/products/ar556/models.html

[jdad]

7.62,
I'm going to disagree with you. There is more to a Noveske than just a "cross" and you know it. /

They spec a great barrel , but other than that -- the heart and soul is the rough equivalent of any other "milspec" rifle , unless you start adding the bells and whistles

A precision barrel on a combat/defense oriented M4 profiled carbine is akin to putting heated leather seats in an F-150 --- its a nice option, but wholly unnecessary for the mission parameters

dont blame you for supporting a local manufacturer though - i have used their products in the past as well

Doug,
You just confirmed what I had implied. You're paying for the "precision" and "bells & whistles", that make it an extremely accurate rifle. It all comes down to what you want to spend your money on.

A Prius is reliable transportation just like a Lexus, but......

David

[piller]

My son has one that is a Stag Arms lower, and a Colt upper with a free float barrel. You can get almost any configuration that you can dream up in an AR style rifle. I had my fill of them in the Army, but I still have one for personal use. The AR type of rifle is inherently accurate, you can do a lot with it---such as changing out the trigger group for a match grade trigger, and they are not too hard to learn to operate. Yes, they are ugly as homemade soap, but ugly is as ugly does. They are accurate, fixable by most people, and they work. Get the one you want and have fun. They are just another useful firearm in your personal inventory of useful tools.

[Grizz]

If that Ruger goes out the door under 6$$ I will guess that it will mark the bottom of the market when the prices are charted 2 years from now. I'd like to handle one. Their spendy piston job looks and feels great.

[Blaine]

The last frigid weather M-16 shooting I did was in Korea 83-85. As noted, the platform runs much better wet. CLP is thick, and useless in the cold (at anytime, IMO). The best way we found was to use a spritz of WD-40. It's good enough, and thin enough to keep things running. I've helped fix a sluggish semi-auto shotgun at a sporting clays event that way, as well.

[7.62 Precision]

7.62,
I'm going to disagree with you. There is more to a Noveske than just a "cross" and you know it . . . . Precision comes at a price.

Answer this: Why do you pay a couple hundred dollars for a stripped Noveske lower, when other lowers made by the same manufacturer who makes Noveske's lowers can be had for $100? For the cross, of course.

Here is the deal. The AR, by accident of design, has incredible potential for accuracy. The barrel is threaded to the barrel extension. The barrel and barrel extension are held to the upper by the barrel nut. The only place the barrel is held rigidly to the rifle is in this one small place where the barrel extension, barrel nut, and upper receiver are all layered together, and the bolt locks up here.

Now, the bolt carrier floats loose in the upper. The bolt floats loose in the bolt carrier. If you free float that barrel, the only place anything is locked up rigidly is where the bolt locks up into the barrel extension.

Now everyone knows what you do to a bolt rifle to get great accuracy. It require precision machine work, lapping, etc. It is important for things like the should of the barrel and the face and lugs of the bolt to all align correctly and perfectly. Bedding the action is important. Lots of important precision work. To get this precision is expensive, but a gunsmith who really knows what he is doing can make a bolt rifle really shoot.

Now to make an AR really shoot, what needs to be done is to free-float a good barrel. That is pretty much it. Why is this? Because the bolt aligns itself when it locks up, because it can. This removes the need for all that precision work that a bolt action needs.

So if I can take almost any stock AR off the shelf, throw a $250 White Oak barrel on it, or even a good $175 Wilson barrel, and get the same accuracy consistently that a Noveske or other "luxury brand" AR gets, what am I getting when I buy a Noveske? A logo.

So why do such companies even exist? Marketing.

First, everyone has long understood what work and expense it takes to get a 1/4 minute group out of a bolt rifle. So when a company comes along and markets an AR that has the barrel "bedded", the lugs trued and lapped, machine work done here and there, people assume that it is things that make the rifle more accurate than others. I argue that if these things increase the accuracy at all, it is immeasurable. I bet that same rifle, with the ams barrel, without all that extra work, would shoot the same. Nevertheless, by marketing those things that people know improve the accuracy of bolt rifles, these companies can charge a premium for their rifles to unsuspecting buyers.

Secondly, as anyone who has spent time studying marketing knows, there are different classes of customers out there. There are people who would choose to live in a trailer even if they had a choice to live in a house. There are people dump all their income into million dollar homes on an interest only mortgage so they can live in a million dollar home. Some guys are happy driving a Pinto, some have to have a BMW.

Look at cars - every car manufacturer makes specific models and brands to target specific types of people and economic classes. Today, with many cars being much the same, some luxury cars really don't have anything over some mid-range cars, other than a logo. Others really do have advantages. But people still buy those luxury cars that really are little different where it matters from midrange cars. Why do they spend the money? Different people have different reasons, but they all are within a sector of the market that wants to pay more for a brand.

When I was in college, I cut grass for a guy with a lawn care business for a short time. We would cut grass in middle class neighborhoods, and in subdivisions with 5 million dollar and up houses. We would get a contract with a homeowner for a tiny lawn in front of one of these homes for $1,500 per week. Now in the middle class neighborhood, we would mow a lawn twice the size, to the same standards with the same equipment for $250 per month. But in the ritzy subdivision on the lake, we got business from the client's neighbors only if they found out our client paid more for his lawn to be cut than they did for theirs. If their lawn care company charged $1,200 per week, then they would hire us to do it for $1,500.

In the world of firearms, it is no different. I have a customer who buys Noveske rifles, and the most expensive brands for other types of firearms. We have spoken about it before, but for him, it is important to have the expensive ones. For people like this, the name and the expense is important. They are getting value, not from any distinct advantages these firearms have over any other, but in their satisfaction that comes from owning them.

Since this market exists, it is only natural that companies exist to fill the demand.

Noveske buys parts from the same suppliers most other manufacturers buy parts from. They charge a lot of money for their rifles, often to those who want to pay a lot of money for their rifles. My argument is that if you want to pay a lot of money, because it gives you satisfaction, then do so. But if I can make a rifle shoot as well as a Noveske for a fraction of the cost, I am not spending my money there.

[7.62 Precision]

On the lube, Murph's advice is good. I use mostly CLP. Other commercial oils work great, too, though some are not all they claim to be.

I like to run the AR pretty wet. It depends on conditions. If I am somewhere really sandy/dusty, I want it just about dripping, to lube the sand and dust.

In arctic conditions, you can use something like Milletech, which still lubes after it is wiped off, or a very fine lube, designed for the arctic. I have used the Milletech a lot in the past, and it works well as a lube, and makes the rifle a bit easier to clean, but it is not as good for preventing rust as others.

When we run courses, I lube or supervise lubing of the student's rifles before the course starts. Otherwise we found that at least half the students will experience malfunctions related to running basically new rifles dry, compounded by the fact that a lot of civilian-market rifles function only marginally, meaning that they work fine when everything is optimal, but are just at the edge of not running well.

All rifles need lube, but people can get away with running bolt and lever guns dry, since the overcome friction by applying more force. So they don't thnk about lube in a semi-auto. The majority of malfunctions I have seen in ARs have been lube or spec related.

[jdad]

7.62,
I'm going to disagree with you. There is more to a Noveske than just a "cross" and you know it . . . . Precision comes at a price.

Answer this: Why do you pay a couple hundred dollars for a stripped Noveske lower, when other lowers made by the same manufacturer who makes Noveske's lowers can be had for $100? For the cross, of course.

Here is the deal. The AR, by accident of design, has incredible potential for accuracy. The barrel is threaded to the barrel extension. The barrel and barrel extension are held to the upper by the barrel nut. The only place the barrel is held rigidly to the rifle is in this one small place where the barrel extension, barrel nut, and upper receiver are all layered together, and the bolt locks up here.

Now, the bolt carrier floats loose in the upper. The bolt floats loose in the bolt carrier. If you free float that barrel, the only place anything is locked up rigidly is where the bolt locks up into the barrel extension.

Now everyone knows what you do to a bolt rifle to get great accuracy. It require precision machine work, lapping, etc. It is important for things like the should of the barrel and the face and lugs of the bolt to all align correctly and perfectly. Bedding the action is important. Lots of important precision work. To get this precision is expensive, but a gunsmith who really knows what he is doing can make a bolt rifle really shoot.

Now to make an AR really shoot, what needs to be done is to free-float a good barrel. That is pretty much it. Why is this? Because the bolt aligns itself when it locks up, because it can. This removes the need for all that precision work that a bolt action needs.

So if I can take almost any stock AR off the shelf, throw a $250 White Oak barrel on it, or even a good $175 Wilson barrel, and get the same accuracy consistently that a Noveske or other "luxury brand" AR gets, what am I getting when I buy a Noveske? A logo.

So why do such companies even exist? Marketing.

First, everyone has long understood what work and expense it takes to get a 1/4 minute group out of a bolt rifle. So when a company comes along and markets an AR that has the barrel "bedded", the lugs trued and lapped, machine work done here and there, people assume that it is things that make the rifle more accurate than others. I argue that if these things increase the accuracy at all, it is immeasurable. I bet that same rifle, with the ams barrel, without all that extra work, would shoot the same. Nevertheless, by marketing those things that people know improve the accuracy of bolt rifles, these companies can charge a premium for their rifles to unsuspecting buyers.

Secondly, as anyone who has spent time studying marketing knows, there are different classes of customers out there. There are people who would choose to live in a trailer even if they had a choice to live in a house. There are people dump all their income into million dollar homes on an interest only mortgage so they can live in a million dollar home. Some guys are happy driving a Pinto, some have to have a BMW.

Look at cars - every car manufacturer makes specific models and brands to target specific types of people and economic classes. Today, with many cars being much the same, some luxury cars really don't have anything over some mid-range cars, other than a logo. Others really do have advantages. But people still buy those luxury cars that really are little different where it matters from midrange cars. Why do they spend the money? Different people have different reasons, but they all are within a sector of the market that wants to pay more for a brand.

When I was in college, I cut grass for a guy with a lawn care business for a short time. We would cut grass in middle class neighborhoods, and in subdivisions with 5 million dollar and up houses. We would get a contract with a homeowner for a tiny lawn in front of one of these homes for $1,500 per week. Now in the middle class neighborhood, we would mow a lawn twice the size, to the same standards with the same equipment for $250 per month. But in the ritzy subdivision on the lake, we got business from the client's neighbors only if they found out our client paid more for his lawn to be cut than they did for theirs. If their lawn care company charged $1,200 per week, then they would hire us to do it for $1,500.

In the world of firearms, it is no different. I have a customer who buys Noveske rifles, and the most expensive brands for other types of firearms. We have spoken about it before, but for him, it is important to have the expensive ones. For people like this, the name and the expense is important. They are getting value, not from any distinct advantages these firearms have over any other, but in their satisfaction that comes from owning them.

Since this market exists, it is only natural that companies exist to fill the demand.

Noveske buys parts from the same suppliers most other manufacturers buy parts from. They charge a lot of money for their rifles, often to those who want to pay a lot of money for their rifles. My argument is that if you want to pay a lot of money, because it gives you satisfaction, then do so. But if I can make a rifle shoot as well as a Noveske for a fraction of the cost, I am not spending my money there.

You may be posting some very informative information, but I (and I'm sure others) don't have the patience to read your novels every time you post. How about the Cliff Notes version, in 2-3 sentences. .......and this isn't personal because there are several others that are also very knowledgeable, but very long winded.

[AJMD429]

7.62,
I'm going to disagree with you. There is more to a Noveske than just a "cross" and you know it . . . . Precision comes at a price.

Answer this: Why do you pay a couple hundred dollars for a stripped Noveske lower, when other lowers made by the same manufacturer who makes Noveske's lowers can be had for $100? For the cross, of course.

Here is the deal. The AR, by accident of design, has incredible potential for accuracy. The barrel is threaded to the barrel extension. The barrel and barrel extension are held to the upper by the barrel nut. The only place the barrel is held rigidly to the rifle is in this one small place where the barrel extension, barrel nut, and upper receiver are all layered together, and the bolt locks up here.

Now, the bolt carrier floats loose in the upper. The bolt floats loose in the bolt carrier. If you free float that barrel, the only place anything is locked up rigidly is where the bolt locks up into the barrel extension.

Now everyone knows what you do to a bolt rifle to get great accuracy. It require precision machine work, lapping, etc. It is important for things like the should of the barrel and the face and lugs of the bolt to all align correctly and perfectly. Bedding the action is important. Lots of important precision work. To get this precision is expensive, but a gunsmith who really knows what he is doing can make a bolt rifle really shoot.

Now to make an AR really shoot, what needs to be done is to free-float a good barrel. That is pretty much it. Why is this? Because the bolt aligns itself when it locks up, because it can. This removes the need for all that precision work that a bolt action needs.

So if I can take almost any stock AR off the shelf, throw a $250 White Oak barrel on it, or even a good $175 Wilson barrel, and get the same accuracy consistently that a Noveske or other "luxury brand" AR gets, what am I getting when I buy a Noveske? A logo.

So why do such companies even exist? Marketing.

First, everyone has long understood what work and expense it takes to get a 1/4 minute group out of a bolt rifle. So when a company comes along and markets an AR that has the barrel "bedded", the lugs trued and lapped, machine work done here and there, people assume that it is things that make the rifle more accurate than others. I argue that if these things increase the accuracy at all, it is immeasurable. I bet that same rifle, with the ams barrel, without all that extra work, would shoot the same. Nevertheless, by marketing those things that people know improve the accuracy of bolt rifles, these companies can charge a premium for their rifles to unsuspecting buyers.

Secondly, as anyone who has spent time studying marketing knows, there are different classes of customers out there. There are people who would choose to live in a trailer even if they had a choice to live in a house. There are people dump all their income into million dollar homes on an interest only mortgage so they can live in a million dollar home. Some guys are happy driving a Pinto, some have to have a BMW.

Look at cars - every car manufacturer makes specific models and brands to target specific types of people and economic classes. Today, with many cars being much the same, some luxury cars really don't have anything over some mid-range cars, other than a logo. Others really do have advantages. But people still buy those luxury cars that really are little different where it matters from midrange cars. Why do they spend the money? Different people have different reasons, but they all are within a sector of the market that wants to pay more for a brand.

When I was in college, I cut grass for a guy with a lawn care business for a short time. We would cut grass in middle class neighborhoods, and in subdivisions with 5 million dollar and up houses. We would get a contract with a homeowner for a tiny lawn in front of one of these homes for $1,500 per week. Now in the middle class neighborhood, we would mow a lawn twice the size, to the same standards with the same equipment for $250 per month. But in the ritzy subdivision on the lake, we got business from the client's neighbors only if they found out our client paid more for his lawn to be cut than they did for theirs. If their lawn care company charged $1,200 per week, then they would hire us to do it for $1,500.

In the world of firearms, it is no different. I have a customer who buys Noveske rifles, and the most expensive brands for other types of firearms. We have spoken about it before, but for him, it is important to have the expensive ones. For people like this, the name and the expense is important. They are getting value, not from any distinct advantages these firearms have over any other, but in their satisfaction that comes from owning them.

Since this market exists, it is only natural that companies exist to fill the demand.

Noveske buys parts from the same suppliers most other manufacturers buy parts from. They charge a lot of money for their rifles, often to those who want to pay a lot of money for their rifles. My argument is that if you want to pay a lot of money, because it gives you satisfaction, then do so. But if I can make a rifle shoot as well as a Noveske for a fraction of the cost, I am not spending my money there.

You may be posting some very informative information, but I (and I'm sure others) don't have the patience to read your novels every time you post. How about the Cliff Notes version, in 2-3 sentences. .......and this isn't personal because there are several others that are also very knowledgeable, but very long winded.

Ha... I'm the opposite, I find these threads fascinating, so sometimes I print them and stick them in my notebook so when I have down time I have something to read.

[7.62 Precision]

You may be posting some very informative information, but I (and I'm sure others) don't have the patience to read your novels every time you post. How about the Cliff Notes version, in 2-3 sentences. .......and this isn't personal because there are several others that are also very knowledgeable, but very long winded.

Noveske buys parts from the same companies that manufacture the same parts for a number of manufactures, none of which charge the prices Noveske does.

Companies like Noveske do work to ARs that is not required for accuracy and use marketing to sell them at a premium cost.

I can assemble an AR that is every bit as reliable and accurate as a Noveske by using a quality barrel; why would I spend more money on a Noveske?

If you want the logic behind those three sentences, read my post above.

[jdad]

You may be posting some very informative information, but I (and I'm sure others) don't have the patience to read your novels every time you post. How about the Cliff Notes version, in 2-3 sentences. .......and this isn't personal because there are several others that are also very knowledgeable, but very long winded.

Noveske buys parts from the same companies that manufacture the same parts for a number of manufactures, none of which charge the prices Noveske does.

Companies like Noveske do work to ARs that is not required for accuracy and use marketing to sell them at a premium cost.

I can assemble an AR that is every bit as reliable and accurate as a Noveske by using a quality barrel; why would I spend more money on a Noveske?

If you want the logic behind those three sentences, read my post above.

Thank you, for the facts and not the fluff.

[jdad]

7.62,

Ha... I'm the opposite, I find these threads fascinating, so sometimes I print them and stick them in my notebook so when I have down time I have something to read.

Doc, you can be a little long winded also. I like the way Mr. Weidner posts.....short and to the point. He's not an artist and doesn't paint any pretty pictures either.

[7.62 Precision]

If the pictures bother people, I don't have to post them

The "fluff" is important for some people. There are lots of "facts" posted on the internet. I try to support what I say in cases like this in order to help people understand the point I am trying to make. Otherwise, I am just another idiot posting unsupported opinions and, "my brand is better that your brand 'cause I said so" posts. In this case, someone is trying to understand some things about different ARs, and I think this information should be laid out for him.

[7.62 Precision]

If that Ruger goes out the door under 6$$ I will guess that it will mark the bottom of the market when the prices are charted 2 years from now. I'd like to handle one. Their spendy piston job looks and feels great.

I am interested to see what that rifle is like. I am not interested in the piston rifle, but I would like to see what the quality of this DI rifle turns out to be.

[Malamute]

If the pictures bother people, I don't have to post them

The "fluff" is important for some people. There are lots of "facts" posted on the internet. I try to support what I say in cases like this in order to help people understand the point I am trying to make. Otherwise, I am just another idiot posting unsupported opinions and, "my brand is better that your brand 'cause I said so" posts. In this case, someone is trying to understand some things about different ARs, and I think this information should be laid out for him.

I agree.

[Tycer]

I (and I'm sure others) don't have the patience to read your novels every time you post. How about the Cliff Notes version, in 2-3 sentences.

Got Twitter?

[jdad]

If the pictures bother people, I don't have to post them

The "fluff" is important for some people. There are lots of "facts" posted on the internet. I try to support what I say in cases like this in order to help people understand the point I am trying to make. Otherwise, I am just another idiot posting unsupported opinions and, "my brand is better that your brand 'cause I said so" posts. In this case, someone is trying to understand some things about different ARs, and I think this information should be laid out for him.

Don't get so defensive. I said this isn't personal. I just stated my opinion.

You've more than proven that you're not just another idiot..........posting unsupported opinions. I do believe you know the AR platform better than I do. Geez, you'd think we were over on ARFCom.

[Grizz]

I like the precision of 7.62's posts. I can skim if I'm short of time, but hey, I'm not short of time.

the extra stuff is the meat under the gravy

[Streetstar]

7.62,
I'm going to disagree with you. There is more to a Noveske than just a "cross" and you know it. /

They spec a great barrel , but other than that -- the heart and soul is the rough equivalent of any other "milspec" rifle , unless you start adding the bells and whistles

A precision barrel on a combat/defense oriented M4 profiled carbine is akin to putting heated leather seats in an F-150 --- its a nice option, but wholly unnecessary for the mission parameters

dont blame you for supporting a local manufacturer though - i have used their products in the past as well

Doug,
You just confirmed what I had implied. You're paying for the "precision" and "bells & whistles", that make it an extremely accurate rifle. It all comes down to what you want to spend your money on.

A Prius is reliable transportation just like a Lexus, but......

David

Wow -- this thread took off -- LOL .

Its splitting hairs, but i will say i think comparing a Prius to a LExus (sic-- i prefer Lincoln) _ is like comparing a 10/22 with a banana clip to a nice AR since they both make .22 caliber holes in things

The F-150 analogy assumes that basically, the vehicles do the same work --- same engines, equivalent payload, towing capacity , etc. , --- but the boutique Lariat package has backup cameras, sunroof and leather that would look good in a man cave ------ while the equally capable XLT package truck makes do with cloth seats and no backup camera - you still have to use mirrors .
Either one is a flawed analogy, to be sure ---- but i can still install a Geiselle trigger and a free float tube on a 1k Colt and shoot right with a Noveske if i wanted to , its just that its not needed. And precision chambering can also have issues in a combat carbine when you are not using precision ammunition

But in keeping with being a fan of local companies --- if i had my druthers, - i'd be shooting Larue (from Oklahoma's ugly brother to the south ) -- they make (ahem....assemble then market ) good stuff and i have to confess i like the rollmark on their lowers too when you can get them

[7.62 Precision]

Geez, you'd think we were over on ARFCom.

No, if we were over on arfcom, you would be 13 and posting from your bedroom about why the SCAR is better than the Tavor from your extensive SOCOM experience (without mentioning the video game aspect of that experience) and I would be 400 lbs, barefoot, un-showered and in my underwear, sitting in my mothers basement at 47 years old or so, fondling my latest Tavor purchase while I argued with you from my experience as the owner of five Tavors, three ARs, and a high-point, shooter of none. But someday, I'm getting a box of ammo and going to shoot one . . . just to see what it feels like.

[jdad]

Geez, you'd think we were over on ARFCom.

No, if we were over on arfcom, you would be 13 and posting from your bedroom about why the SCAR is better than the Tavor from your extensive SOCOM experience (without mentioning the video game aspect of that experience) and I would be 400 lbs, barefoot, un-showered and in my underwear, sitting in my mothers basement at 47 years old or so, fondling my latest Tavor purchase while I argued with you from my experience as the owner of five Tavors, three ARs, and a high-point, shooter of none. But someday, I'm getting a box of ammo and going to shoot one . . . just to see what it feels like.

OK, that's the best post in this entire thread. Only those of us that visit the GD section will get it.

[Griff]

Geez, you'd think we were over on ARFCom.

No, if we were over on arfcom, you would be 13 and posting from your bedroom about why the SCAR is better than the Tavor from your extensive SOCOM experience (without mentioning the video game aspect of that experience) and I would be 400 lbs, barefoot, un-showered and in my underwear, sitting in my mothers basement at 47 years old or so, fondling my latest Tavor purchase while I argued with you from my experience as the owner of five Tavors, three ARs, and a high-point, shooter of none. But someday, I'm getting a box of ammo and going to shoot one . . . just to see what it feels like.

OK, that's the best post in this entire thread. Only those of us that visit the GD section will get it.

No, that's the best post on any Forum in the past 10 years!!!!

[Tycer]

Geez, you'd think we were over on ARFCom.

No, if we were over on arfcom, you would be 13 and posting from your bedroom about why the SCAR is better than the Tavor from your extensive SOCOM experience (without mentioning the video game aspect of that experience) and I would be 400 lbs, barefoot, un-showered and in my underwear, sitting in my mothers basement at 47 years old or so, fondling my latest Tavor purchase while I argued with you from my experience as the owner of five Tavors, three ARs, and a high-point, shooter of none. But someday, I'm getting a box of ammo and going to shoot one . . . just to see what it feels like.

OK, that's the best post in this entire thread. Only those of us that visit the GD section will get it.

No, that's the best post on any Forum in the past 10 years!!!!

I took a two day AK course from Larry Vickers and a couple of the attendees were those fat 47 year old gamers. They were formidable with their AKs. I was surprised how well they could shoot while moving, reload and transition to sidearm. Better than me, but nothing like the two Canadian JTF2 soldiers running full auto drills to burn up the extra several thousand rounds of ammo they brought to class. Those men were absolutely amazing to watch. I'll never forget watching them work it. If our Special Forces ever get loosed on us, I'll just roll over and die from fear.

[hayabusa]

7.62 Precision writes are excellent & I think good reading.

hayabusa

[Chuck 100 yd]

7.62 Precision , I enjoy your posts and the obvious depth of knowledge on the subject.
You go man!!!

[ethang]

I will ditto the LMT recommendations. Yes Colt is the benchmark and builds fine rifles. Many other makes are building good rifles also. I have a Colt target rifle, and a LMT, and my work rifle is a S&W. I have the most rounds downrange with the LMT and it just plain runs.

[1894c]

.... :)

[1894c]

I recently built my first AR-15...used the following parts... :)
Upper: http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.ph ... gory/4220/
Lower (free/no cost): http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.ph ... gory/4282/
Bolt: http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.ph ... -bolt.html

A friend of mine who is a Master-Chief with the Navy CB's (presently on his 6th deployment in a war-zone)gave me the lower + 15 mags, and suggested the other options...the AR runs well, qualified with it...all together, if I was to pay for it all, it would have cost about $600.00 (that includes shipping fees)...

The only reason I decided to get an AR in the first place was because I finally agreed with HOBIE, every one of us should have one. Didn't use to think this way, but the present administration helped my derision making process, plus my wife shoots the AR better than the 12 gauge... :)

[Panzercat]

Geez, you'd think we were over on ARFCom.

No, if we were over on arfcom, you would be 13 and posting from your bedroom about why the SCAR is better than the Tavor from your extensive SOCOM experience (without mentioning the video game aspect of that experience) and I would be 400 lbs, barefoot, un-showered and in my underwear, sitting in my mothers basement at 47 years old or so, fondling my latest Tavor purchase while I argued with you from my experience as the owner of five Tavors, three ARs, and a high-point, shooter of none. But someday, I'm getting a box of ammo and going to shoot one . . . just to see what it feels like.

I just got my post locked at arfcom for being a company shill

[horsesoldier03]

I recently built my first AR-15...used the following parts...
Upper: http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.ph ... gory/4220/
Lower (free/no cost): http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.ph ... gory/4282/
Bolt: http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.ph ... -bolt.html

A friend of mine who is a Master-Chief with the Navy CB's (presently on his 6th deployment in a war-zone)gave me the lower + 15 mags, and suggested the other options...the AR runs well, qualified with it...all together, if I was to pay for it all, it would have cost about $600.00 (that includes shipping fees)...

The only reason I decided to get an AR in the first place was because I finally agreed with HOBIE, every one of us should have one. Didn't use to think this way, but the present administration helped my derision making process, plus my wife shoots the AR better than the 12 gauge...

+1 on PSA. I finally decided to pick up one as well. I built the lower and used a complete upper. I think it ran me about $561 after everything. I went with the PSA Premium M4A1 barrel.

[AJMD429]

Geez, you'd think we were over on ARFCom.

No, if we were over on arfcom, you would be 13 and posting from your bedroom about why the SCAR is better than the Tavor from your extensive SOCOM experience (without mentioning the video game aspect of that experience) and I would be 400 lbs, barefoot, un-showered and in my underwear, sitting in my mothers basement at 47 years old or so, fondling my latest Tavor purchase while I argued with you from my experience as the owner of five Tavors, three ARs, and a high-point, shooter of none. But someday, I'm getting a box of ammo and going to shoot one . . . just to see what it feels like.

THAT is why if I have an AR-15 question I'll post it here, instead of on ARFCom...!!!

[7.62 Precision]

I just got my post locked at arfcom for being a company shill

What company were you shilling for?

I got threatened with a ban for posting a link to an article I had written on my blog. Also for having my logo on a photo I posted. Both intended to help answer someone's questions.

[brucew44guns]

Thanks again guys, been off Leverguns awhile, came back, and you all gave me your time and concerns, I appreciate it. I did buy a Colt today. 6920 LE MPG-B, it will come from Davidson's, and get it Wednesday this week. I hope the disease of AR's is more treatable than the levergun variety of disease, you know---just one??

[AJMD429]

I hope the disease of AR's is more treatable than the levergun variety of disease, you know---just one??

[MrMurphy]

Especially with a 6920, i recommend Mike Pannone's M4/M16 handbook for basic care and feeding.


And with an AR, you can have 12 uppers, one lower, and still have one "gun".........

So a short barreled .300 Blackout, 20" 6.5 Grendel, 18" 5.56 varmint rifle, 16" defensive carbine with light and optic, and a .22 dedicated upper for slaying small critters are all still "one gun".....


Technicalities.

[rodeo kid]

AJMD, I sure do like the red stripes. God Bless