Original 1876 win 45-60 key holing bullets help

[Mgdan]

The bore/rifling looks to be in order. The muzzle crown worn slightly but for a rifle made in 1881 it's not to bad.
I am shooting black powder with buffalo arm brass 300gr cast bullet compressed loads should be near original load. Rounds are keyholing at 45yrds!
Regards
Mgdan in JKT

[Pete44ru]

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Welcome to the asylum !

IMHO, it sounds like a problem in the muzzle area, provided the boolits are the correct size/diameter.

I would first recrown the muzzle & see if the keyholing disappears.

If not, then the rifling needs to be cut back - either via cutting/shortening the bbl, or counterboring the muzzle 1/2" deep (minimum) & recrowning the new interior muzzle (end of the rifling).


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[Mgdan]

Thanks for the greeting.
This an original win so I don't really want to cut etc.....
The muzzle calipered at .458 in the grove as best I can measure.
Bullets are commercial from buffalo arms

[Borregos]

Welcome.
Have you slugged the bore?

[1886]

Welcome.
Have you slugged the bore?

Welcome and +1. Slug that bore. 1886

[Pitchy]

My Chappy 76 45-60 was key holing bad using 300 grain bullets that come to find out were too undersize for the barrel.
I switched to some bigger 405`s and the problem went away, as said slug the bore and see where your at.
Welcome aboard.

[Shasta]

Welcome to the best forum on the internet!

As others have suggested, you should slug the bore to determine the proper bullet diameter needed. It is not uncommon for these old rifles to have over-sized bores. If your bore slugs at .458" you need a bullet at least .459" in diameter.
I have a Winchester 1873 in .44-40 that was made in 1880. The bore slugged at .431", well over the normal .427"-.429" usually seen in this caliber. The first loads I tried with the .429" bullets I had on hand shot poorly. I ordered a custom bullet mold from Accurate Molds that drops a .433" bullet that I size to .432", and now the rifle is capable of one inch fifty yard groups. Proper bullet diameter is the key to cast bullet accuracy.
Another thing to consider is bullet lube. If you are using black powder, be sure to use a bullet that is lubed with one of the softer lubes intended for black powder. My Uberti reproduction 1876 in .45-60 has a 28" barrel, and I found that I had to add a 1/16" thick grease cookie under the bullet to achieve adequate lubrication. Otherwise, fouling quickly became caked toward the muzzle and accuracy suffered.
Finally, in case you have not already read it, here is a link to a very fine article on the .45-60 written by forum member KirkD:

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/1876.pdf


SHASTA

[Mgdan]

Shasta, et al.,
Thanks for the tips. I suspect the larger size bullets are needed.. No I have not slugged the bore but will get it done. Good point on the grease cookies. I use to shoot a sharps .45-110. I certainly needed more lube.
I will give it a go at Xmas.
Thanks
Dan

[Pete44ru]

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Happy Holidays, but I hope you drop by again, before Christmas.



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[QCI Winchesters]

Black powder will usually bump up an undersize bullet, but some of them commercial cast bullets are to danged hard, and don't bump up at all. Lots of old rifles need soft bullets and BP, because a bullet big enough to fill the rifling often won't chamber. I had that problem with a .38-55, which shoots great with slightly undersize bullets and BP, but not worth beans with smokeless.

[w30wcf]

Dan,
If you have any .06" poly discs in .45 caliber, try one under the bullet. if it still keyholes, try 2. Even if the bullet is undersized by keeping the gas behind the bullet, it will not be disturbed by the powder gases and will fly fairly true.

That tactic worked for a friend and his original '76 Winchester when he was having trouble with keyholing several years ago.

w30wcf

[Griff]

and Welcome to THE Forum!

You'll know if you have enough lube if you have a "star" on the muzzle. Also, are you using "real" black? Most subs won't bump up a bullet. Stick with bullets of Lyman #2 or softer. If those don't work, then you have to decide if you want a shooter or a wall-hanger. On this forum you'll probably find most will take a shooter oover a wall-hanger.

If the issue goes deeper than even counter-boring the muzzle will mend, then you may consider having a liner installed. ISTR more'n one rifle that's been tr-;ined and given new life.

[Chuck 100 yd]

+1 on all above. A bullet cast and sized to just barely slip into a fired empty case should be close to what you need. If your bullets fall into the bottom of a fired case they are way too small.

A round containing the largest diameter bullet that will chamber in your guns chamber is usually about right. That should end up groove diameter + 1-3 thousandths.

[QCI Winchesters]

The muzzle would have to be pretty rotten to cause keyholing bullets, I think. I have shot some rifles with really bad muzzles, and still got reasonable accuracy.

[coyote nose]

I must have recrowned a dozen guns so far and, so far, accuracy has never improved. Precision Shooting did an article a few years ago where the author hacked up crowns to see at what point accuracy suffered. At one point he got so aggressive he accidentally BROKE a carbide burring tool off while trying to mess up the crown! The first shot from that bore was wild, but then all subsequent shots were as accurate as before. I had poor accuracy in my Chaparral 45-75 no matter what bullet or alloy or powder I used....until I used a .030" ldpe wad (a poly wad) as someone mentioned above. That and then going with a harder bullet (linotype/lead alloy in the ratio of 60/40) gave outstanding accuracy. LDPE wads have since become a standard for me in several of my bigbore guns. Definitely try the poly wads first, you may find that is all you need to do. I buy mine from buffalo arms.

[QCI Winchesters]

Townsen Whalen took a rat tail file to the rifling in the muzzles of various rifles, and no matter what he did, he never completely ruined the accuracy. It did, however, shift the zero quite a bit.

[Little Doc]

mgdan,
your bullet is too small for the ball seat. (throat). if you don't want to do a throat slug to find out the size you can get larger bullets.
to explain with a story. I acquired a marlin model 93 in 32-40. .321 bore. cast and sized bullets to the book. shot them at 25yds at a 1' square steel target. of five shots only two hit the target and they were sideways. I did not slug the throat but had a 8mm mould that droped out of the mould at .326 loaded it in a case and it would chamber so loaded several and back to the range. all hit the target and then would shoot ten shot into a 2.5 in group at 50yds with iron sights.
before you follow any advice to cut the bbl etc. please try this. old guns do not need to be butchered. I think you will find joy with larger bullets. soft rather than hard.
good luck
M

[QCI Winchesters]

That sounds plausible, but all of the old Winchesters I have examined don't have a throat, just a rather abrubt cone right in front of the chamber. Makes it tough if you seat a bullet even a little farther than a factory round. It also makes it tough to chamber a cartridge with the proper fitting bullet.

[Little Doc]

largest bullet that will chamber, does not have to be seated longer than factory.
m