Too much omph for home defense..........................

[Rifleman336]

I got to love it my .30-30 and .357 Mag lever guns are near and dear to my heart and my go to rifle for everything including SD if it came to it UNDER CERTAIN circumstances. even then I'd probably pick the 1894C loaded with 110 or 125gr .38+P's to get the job done and with reduced overpenatraition concerns.

From time to time I type in the phrases "The fighting levergun" and "Tactical Leverguns" to see what comes up. Well last night I seen a posting on shooting gallery TV fourm .com and how Michael Bane keeps a Mod 94 Winchester in .44 Mag next to the bed!! Hell, my .357 Mag revolver can be too much with the wrong ammo loaded in it, nevermind out of a rifle length barrel and he's using a full bore .44 loads for HD!!!! .44 Specials IMHO would be the call here.

But it gets better. He was considering replacing it with a Marlin .45-70!!!!!!!!!!! I hope the man has no neighbours. The .44 will take out Grizzly, Buffalo here in North America, but what is he expecting a unemployed elephant from the zoo to break in to his home???!!!


Sometimes some people forget how much power they have already in their current firarms they already own, and they get dumb in the fact that they have to raise the bar.

OHHH!! Well I thought it was good for a laugh.

P.S. I know of the old 3 ball "Garrison Load" for those "one gun only" owners, but for MR. Blane, I don't think that is an issue, and next would be "Whats the point of down loading for SD, when you already have something that will do the job two times over?"

Rifleman 336

[Malamute]

Guess it depends on where you live. I keep a 45-70, 30-06, 35 Whelen or 348 handy in the house. I'm not too concerned about people breaking in, and the neighbors, what there is of them, are scattered out pretty well.

[KirkD]

I live in a brick house in a rural area, so my home defense rifle is Old Savage, a Winchester 30-30 carbine. I suppose if I blow out a brick, I can always replace it later .... or put a window into the new hole, if I happened to grab my 45-70 in the heat of the moment.

[Tycer]

I have zero regard for over penetration. Zero. If I follow the four rules I'm good to go.

If a self defense round exits after severing spinal nerves, it did its job. If it does so after passing through a bicep and shoulder, it did its job. If it spatters on a lapel pin, sternum, cell phone or clavicle and deflects or goes no further, it failed. The only reason my Rossi Trapper has 38 Special FMJ in it is that it affords me two more rounds than .357. A guide gun with some factory loads would be fine by me. As an aside, you'll not find me with any light .357" projectiles in my home as I feel my S&W 19s need to be fed 148+ grain bullets.

In my home, I have mapped out every angle of defense firing I can think of. Part of my reasoning for choosing my house is that it has real plaster walls and brick exterior. Minimum penetration both ways.

Perhaps I would think differently if I were forced to live in an apartment building. Fat chance there.

[brno602]

I live in a brick house in a rural area, so my home defense rifle is Old Savage, a Winchester 30-30 carbine. I suppose if I blow out a brick, I can always replace it later .... or put a window into the new hole, if I happened to grab my 45-70 in the heat of the moment.

And in Canada it is best to shot shovel and shut up if it ever came down to it.

[KirkD]

I live in a brick house in a rural area, so my home defense rifle is Old Savage, a Winchester 30-30 carbine. I suppose if I blow out a brick, I can always replace it later .... or put a window into the new hole, if I happened to grab my 45-70 in the heat of the moment.

And in Canada it is best to shot shovel and shut up if it ever came down to it.

But in a rural area, there is also usually a durn tootin' vehicle as well. It can take all night and half the next day to shovel a hole big enough for that.

[Tycer]

And in Canada it is best to shoot shovel and shut up if it ever came down to it.

I hate to be a spoil-sport, but posting that sort of comment publicly might dictate where you spend the rest of your life should you ever have to defend yourself or family.

[Streetstar]

If somebody breaks into my casa with the intent to do harm, i want them down. I think the .44 Mag levergun is perfect for this -- with good bullet selection, they should expand nicely, limiting over penetration.

But currently , the .44 Mag is in the safe and my Guide Gun is by the bed loaded with Hornady flex tips. I dont think there is such a thing as "too much" with today's crooks and the propensity of some of them to be wearing body armor.

I have played around with the idea of using my AR for HD, but i dont have enough confidence in the .223/5.56 family for one shot stops, center of mass. I know the big, heavy slow moving 45/70 will one shot stop most men, regardless of bullet placement

[adirondakjack]

Body armor????? Unless yer house is "cocaine depot" yer very unlikely to ever see a criminal wearing body armor. You're much more likely to seee a crackhead wearing a filthy tee shirt, ratty jeans, and flip flops trying to steal your computer, TV, and yes, guns left laying around.

IMHO anything that exceeds the rough equivalent of today's .40 S&W cop gun ammo or good ole .45 ACP is a whole lot more than most anybody in a modern "chipboard and vinyl siding" house with neighbors 100 ft away needs. Ya'll do it yer way, I wanna anchor the scumbucket come to do me harm without holing the old lady across the road.....

[AJMD429]

I always preferred a revolver for home defense. . .

.

although

.

I really prefer

.

the LARGER calibers...

[samb]

Up here we need the penetration for the parka, shirt and longjohns.

[DixieBoy]

AJ - I thought that was your concealed carry "revolver." - DixieBoy

[pokey]

I always preferred a revolver for home defense. . .

.

although

.

I really prefer

.

the LARGER calibers...

now you're talkin'

[brno602]

I live in a brick house in a rural area, so my home defense rifle is Old Savage, a Winchester 30-30 carbine. I suppose if I blow out a brick, I can always replace it later .... or put a window into the new hole, if I happened to grab my 45-70 in the heat of the moment.

And in Canada it is best to shot shovel and shut up if it ever came down to it.

But in a rural area, there is also usually a durn tootin' vehicle as well. It can take all night and half the next day to shovel a hole big enough for that.

In the country you will have the time to dig the hole
Or make it look like the Bears got em.

[Doc Hudson]

For a short while there was a fellow hanging around the old Sixgunner.Conm Forum who used a .375 H&H bolt-action rifle as his HD rifle. And the idiot lived in a condo!

I tried repeatedly to convince him that he was dangerously overgunned for the duty but he just would not listen.

I'm mighty happy that he isn't one of MY neighbors.

If I didn't have a .357 Magnum carbine, or an 18.5" pumpgun for HD use, and if I still had my Guide Gun, I might consider loading it with Remington 350 gr. JHP's for HD use. But since I had more suitable weapons, I never loaded the Guide Gun except on the range or in the woods.

[Rifleman336]

Streetstar: The BG wearing of body armor is more than a little overblown in eight years of working in the worst areas of Dayton and Cincinnati, and I mean with drug gangs. I know of only two that were found with vests and it would do them no good with the weapon you have. Go to Galls.com look on body armor in Galls University page or get on of their catalogs and look up the ballistic limits of each vest, Threat Level I through Threat Level IIIA.

I wore a Treat Level IIA vest and for it would stop the .357 Magnum that was my duty weapon at the time and it was what all local law enforcement agencies wore. Even if a BG wore a Threat Level III vest one has to keep in mind if he came up against a thug with a 4" barrel .44 Magnum handgun that the vest is only good for a taking a hit 15 feet and beyond any closer and you got a big problem. Never mind out of your .44 Mag chambered rifle!!!! My .357 Mag lever gun could go through the Threat Level IIIA with full pressure loads.

But then theirs the liability both legal and monetary, if said bullet goes through said UNARMORED BG and you kill the neighbours kid who was sleeping in his bed at 3 AM. I'd save it for only if the BG goes down and gets back up that's another story then it time for a heavy load.

AJ: I love the "Rev" and like my more pedestrian 12Ga pump it's a better choice with Buckshot for HD. It's easier to stop buckshot pellets than it is heavy bullets.

Rifleman 336

[COSteve]

For those of us who live in suburbia with homes constructed of drywall, 2x4s, and exterior wood, even the good old thurdy-thurdy may have too much penetration to ensure containment inside our homes. That's one of the things I was looking for opinions on when I posted that thread "357 Levergun vs 30 Carbine vs AR15 - Which for HD?" both here and on AR15.com.

I got quite a large number of spirited responses on both forums with leverguns predictably the largest choice here and AR15s there. However, for all us, over penetration is a real concern because we are all totally responsible for the results of each and every bullet we unleash. Remember, a 'long' shot in all but the largest of homes is less than 25 ft. And, if it exits our homes, we are totally liable for anything or anyone it touches.

I've seen the aftermath of a couple of gunfights in urban settings (went on a couple of 'ride alongs' many years ago with our local PD) and bullets can do strange things going through homes. I saw some that were stopped by apparently trivial barriers while others penetrated multiple homes (in one case through two and into a 3rd home).

For that reason, I decided that my AR provided me with too much penetration even though some 'experts' purport that it's 55grn bullet is stopped well inside a home. I'm not prepared to deal with the possibility of injuring one of my neighbors; not just because of the liability but rather because of the emotional loss I would feel having shot an innocent.

So, my personal choice was narrowed to two contenders. While I prefer the ballistics of my levergun using 1,500fps 38spl+P HPs (for additional capacity) slightly over my M1 carbine's 110grn hollow points, I gave the nod to my M1 because my own crude testing has demonstrated that the m1's HPs are most reliably stopped inside my style structure.

In addition, the M1 carbine carries more loaded ammo and an additional 2ea 15rd reloads in a pouch on the stock. That compares to my levergun's 12rd capacity and no reloads in a 'grab and go' situation. Anything larger than those, for me, pose too much risk of exiting my structure and striking something or someone else. And that's not a risk I'm willing to take.

[Streetstar]

But then theirs the liability both legal and monetary, if said bullet goes through said UNARMORED BG and you kill the neighbours kid who was sleeping in his bed at 3 AM. I'd save it for only if the BG goes down and gets back up that's another story then it time for a heavy load.

My participation in this discussion is largely academic, as my closest neighbors are cows, and i could theoretically use a .375 H&H for this role if that were my pleasure. However, there are obviously much better tools for the job

Regarding the innocent bystander, if i place my shot correctly and it literally blows through my would be assailant, how would i be any more liable than a police officer in a confrontation who keeps pulling the trigger until his magazine is empty, clipping a bystander in the process? (this happens too-- many accounts of officer involved shootings describe the officer as being unaware of anything else once he started engaging the target until his slide locked back several seconds later -- i'm paraphrasing and cant quote the source off the top of my head, but may be a Cirillo book )

In the unfortunate event that another person on a neighboring property was harmed after a homeowner dispatched a would be assailant, the homeowner would eventually be subject to a civil suit by the victim's family no doubt, but the homeowner who was defending himself would very likely keep his /her freedom, even if such an event would give him/her a heavy heart for a while. The homeowner's lawyer would simply state that said homeowner, when confronted by a dangerous assailant, utilized what was most readilly available, which was a "deer rifle". The jury doesnt care whether it is .44 Mag, 30/30 or .22 Mag.
I'm theorizing that said homeowner had sufficient shot control to shoot his attacker with a minimum of expended rounds , rather than resort to spray and pray tactics. A homeowner using an AR with two jungle clipped mags who leaves behind mounds of brass and makes swiss cheese out of his house and other surrounding homes may draw the attention of a DA though

Although i live on an acreage, i have a large garage and workshop filled to the brim with the various types of things young people and hoodlums value for re-sale, so i have given this some degree of thought. Police response time in my area is poor, generally, lighting in the area is poor, so my well lit shop stands out as a beacon in the dark. I also live close to a hill top where Birkenstock wearers like to come park and watch the sun go down, so while i dont live in Cincinnati, i am still a nice target for miscreants.

I pray for peace everyday, but if something regretful happens at 3 in the morning (or 2 in the afternoon-- mid day break ins are pretty darn common too), its not going to bother me to have a wee bit too much gun.

[adirondakjack]

But then theirs the liability both legal and monetary, if said bullet goes through said UNARMORED BG and you kill the neighbours kid who was sleeping in his bed at 3 AM. I'd save it for only if the BG goes down and gets back up that's another story then it time for a heavy load.

My participation in this discussion is largely academic, as my closest neighbors are cows, and i could theoretically use a .375 H&H for this role if that were my pleasure. However, there are obviously much better tools for the job

Regarding the innocent bystander, if i place my shot correctly and it literally blows through my would be assailant, how would i be any more liable than a police officer in a confrontation who keeps pulling the trigger until his magazine is empty, clipping a bystander in the process? (this happens too-- many accounts of officer involved shootings describe the officer as being unaware of anything else once he started engaging the target until his slide locked back several seconds later -- i'm paraphrasing and cant quote the source off the top of my head, but may be a Cirillo book )

In the unfortunate event that another person on a neighboring property was harmed after a homeowner dispatched a would be assailant, the homeowner would eventually be subject to a civil suit by the victim's family no doubt, but the homeowner who was defending himself would very likely keep his /her freedom, even if such an event would give him/her a heavy heart for a while. The homeowner's lawyer would simply state that said homeowner, when confronted by a dangerous assailant, utilized what was most readilly available, which was a "deer rifle". The jury doesnt care whether it is .44 Mag, 30/30 or .22 Mag.
I'm theorizing that said homeowner had sufficient shot control to shoot his attacker with a minimum of expended rounds , rather than resort to spray and pray tactics. A homeowner using an AR with two jungle clipped mags who leaves behind mounds of brass and makes swiss cheese out of his house and other surrounding homes may draw the attention of a DA though

Although i live on an acreage, i have a large garage and workshop filled to the brim with the various types of things young people and hoodlums value for re-sale, so i have given this some degree of thought. Police response time in my area is poor, generally, lighting in the area is poor, so my well lit shop stands out as a beacon in the dark. I also live close to a hill top where Birkenstock wearers like to come park and watch the sun go down, so while i dont live in Cincinnati, i am still a nice target for miscreants.

I pray for peace everyday, but if something regretful happens at 3 in the morning (or 2 in the afternoon-- mid day break ins are pretty darn common too), its not going to bother me to have a wee bit too much gun.

Sir, with all due respect, it ain't about the loss of freedom, or presumably what yer homeowners policy is gonna pay out.

By taking the stance that your righteous shoot that takes the life of an innocent is in any way acceptable at any level, you have deemed yourself more important, more valuable than the kid or mother next door. That, Sir, is morally reprehensible.

FOR WHAT IT's WORTH, if a death due to an AD/ND, or over-penetrating round you are responsible for ever happens, you will know the term "living hell" for a very, very long time, unless you're a man with no moral fiber whatsoever. As the son of a gun owner who FORGOT to unload a revolver, and the brother of a kid who at 13, "playing around", managed to shoot and kill his best friend, I feel qualified to speak on the subject. You NEVER get over it. FOUR lives were ruined that day. The victim, his mother, my dad, and my brother.

To even contemplate the stray bullet as acceptable in a HD calculus is simply wrong. Match the ammo for the job, and beware your downrange.

[Chas.]

Forget bout which bullet - just use a shotgun with maybe #4-#5 shot. Best HD ever. Shot placement is less important, little or no penetration beyond the inside of the structure, and it'll kill just about anything at HD distances.

[Doc Hudson]

AdarondackJack,

i think you are mis-interpreting Streetsta's intent.

None of us want to kill or injure an innocent bystander if it is avoidable.

Legally speaking, I believe it is a general rule that if anyone is injured or killed during or as a result of a felony crime. the person committing the crime is legally responsible whether the death or injury occured at the hand of the criminal or as a result of defensive action taken by the victim.

My home has three entrances. One faces a public road and two face a neighbor's home, the bedroomss to be precise and it is well under 100 feet from my doors. my .357 magnum revolver and carbine are loaded with lightweight JHP's in hopes that they will not penetrate my neighbor's wall. However, I will not hold fire for fear of injuring a bystander. To do otherwise would jeopardize not only my life and my Mom's life, but the lives of countless other people that this predator might attack in the future.

The only alternative to risking over-penetration would be resort to cold steel alone. Quite frankly my home is far too cramped to effectively swing a saber, and I'm to fat, old and slow to rely upon a dirk if it can be avoided.

It seems to me that Streetstar has reached similar conclusions. I do not consider it reprehensible to value one's own life or family higher than the lives of neighbors. It is only natural to do so. In my opinion failing to value your family's safety above others is reprehensible.

[L_Kilkenny]

While I wouldn't want to use a spire pointed FMJ in a centerfire rifle for us to say that a .44M is over powered is a bit much. Truth be told, you start shooting in your house and bullets may very well leave the residence. Even a lowly .22lr from a handgun has little problem going thru a layer of sheet rock, exterior sheeting and steal siding. The odds that you are going to need to fire an HD gun IN MOST AREAS are very bad. The odds that a stray shot that you fire in that time of need hitting someone in another house are astronomical. If you compare the number of rounds discharged in our cities every year to the number of bystanders hit it's actually a very, very pow percentage. Does it happen? Sure. Is it gonna keep me from grabbing a gun with extra umph if I need to? Heck no. If I need to defend myself about the last thing on my mind is gonna be the neighbors.

LK

[adirondakjack]

AdarondackJack,

i think you are mis-interpreting Streetsta's intent.

None of us want to kill or injure an innocent bystander if it is avoidable.

Legally speaking, I believe it is a general rule that if anyone is injured or killed during or as a result of a felony crime. the person committing the crime is legally responsible whether the death or injury occured at the hand of the criminal or as a result of defensive action taken by the victim.

My home has three entrances. One faces a public road and two face a neighbor's home, the bedroomss to be precise and it is well under 100 feet from my doors. my .357 magnum revolver and carbine are loaded with lightweight JHP's in hopes that they will not penetrate my neighbor's wall. However, I will not hold fire for fear of injuring a bystander. To do otherwise would jeopardize not only my life and my Mom's life, but the lives of countless other people that this predator might attack in the future.

The only alternative to risking over-penetration would be resort to cold steel alone. Quite frankly my home is far too cramped to effectively swing a saber, and I'm to fat, old and slow to rely upon a dirk if it can be avoided.

It seems to me that Streetstar has reached similar conclusions. I do not consider it reprehensible to value one's own life or family higher than the lives of neighbors. It is only natural to do so. In my opinion failing to value your family's safety above others is reprehensible.

Soory, but if a feller can shoot a BG with a .416 Rigby, blow a hole in his house, the next two houses, and kill an innocent or two and just blow it off as "LEGALLY the fault of the felon who broke into his house, then say "well I AM ALIVE, too bad for the neighbors" ain't much of a man. Do onto others as you would have THEM do UNTO YOU (you could be the guy awoken by your wife's last gasps after she got shot by the neighbor with his elephant gun)...... LEGAL responsibility ain't gonna matter to you....

[AJMD429]

If one-shot stop odds vs. odds of injuring an innocent are:

80% and 0.01% - say hypothetically for .38 Special
90% and 0.10% - say hypothetically for .44 Magnum

I think most of us would 'vote' for the .44 Magnum, and it wouldn't be wrong, even though "the odds are ten times higher you'll hurt an innocent person".


If they were:

96% and 1.0% - say hypothetically for .30-06
99% and 10.0% - say hypothetically for .50 BMG full-auto

I think most of us would 'settle' for the .30-06 (maybe, 'double-tapping' to be sure ).


Keep in mind that the risk of bystander-harm would vary tremendously; that's why CCW isn't ordinarily intended for 7mm Magnum Encore pistols, and why someone in rural Alaska might not feel they're 'endangering' anyone if they used a .416 Rigby.

It's the same for "safe storage" - a college kid in a house full of six roommates and visitors probably needs a locking gun cabinet that is drunk-23-year-old proof, unless they keep their gun on their person even in the shower. OTOH if you're living in Afghanistan, then "safe storage" may mean your 1911 is in Condition One and under an old T-shirt near the door, in case you don't grab the loaded Garand you keep behind the curtain fast enough.

[madman4570]

Use to stick with my 20" barreled Ithaca Deerslayer w/00 buck
But as of late my primary HD weapon is a 9mm Star P31(suto CZ 75) with 16rds of 9MM +p+ Buffalo Bore 115 JHPs @1450fps
Doc Hudson made some good points about using a long gun in a dark home with hallways. Thanks Doc
Also got a Buck General also at arms reach while in the sack!

But my little 12lb female Mini Schnauzer and my never stops growing 95lb almost 9 month old male yellow Lab will get em!
Honestly, he is very agressive at night in regards to protecting his domain.(Think its because he is "not" neutered)"and he aint going to be either" The wife says get em fixed------I keep saying to him "Char I got your back bro,you can keep the boys"
He gives me this look while showing his bottom teeth that looks like he is smiling at me!
Wife thinks I'm nuts???? pardon the pun!

[AJMD429]

One other thing, like with hunting, it's:

• Placement
  Bullet Construction
  Velocity/Power/Energy (...or "omph")

Proper placement 'solves' most 'bystander' issues - so use what you can SHOOT WELL.

Proper bullet construction probably deals with anything placement doesn't solve (and some that it does solve).

A .223 "Varmint Grenade" fired at a 'bystander' 30 yards behind the first sheet of drywall would probably do less damage than the 230 grain Hardball .45 ACP, or chance 00-buck pellet that made it to the innocent's location through that same drywall.

We ALL need to exercise common sense and be willing to be held accountable for our actions, but likewise, we ALL need to be careful second-guessing the decisions others make, unique to their circumstances, and their abilities, and their neighborhood, and their threats.

Nonetheless, it is a GREAT topic for discussion (and. . . even 'OT' since some like their LEVERGUNS for home protection), because it helps us exchange ideas, information, and so on.

I doubt ANY of us would want to needlessly endanger innocents, but I also doubt ANY 'bad guy' would be glad he chose our abode for his violent criminal activity. We're a pretty reasonable (mostly ) and nice (usually ) bunch of guys/gals, but protecting one's "castle", however humble, is something few of us take lightly.

[Doc Hudson]

Soory, but if a feller can shoot a BG with a .416 Rigby, blow a hole in his house, the next two houses, and kill an innocent or two and just blow it off as "LEGALLY the fault of the felon who broke into his house, then say "well I AM ALIVE, too bad for the neighbors" ain't much of a man. Do onto others as you would have THEM do UNTO YOU (you could be the guy awoken by your wife's last gasps after she got shot by the neighbor with his elephant gun)...... LEGAL responsibility ain't gonna matter to you....

I did not and do not advocate homeowners overgun themselves.

Didn't you notice my first post in this thread where I mentioned the silly bugger who used a .375 H&H for his HD rifle? Didn't you notice that I mentioned that I often took him to task for his choice of HD rifle for use in a California condo?

Did you also not notice my own use of lightweight JHP's in both revolvers and carbine for home defense?

Even so I'm not going to knock someone who has chosen to use a .44 RemMag carbine for home defense, though I'd not select it myself if a .357 Magnum were available.

I personally do all I can to avoid endangering a neighbor. But truth of the matter is that in a home defense situaion the probability of a shot being fired in a direction not pointed at the neighbor's house is slim to downright non-existent. Will that make me hold my fire? Not a chance. As I said before I place a higher value on my own life and the lives of my family than I do anyone else's. Can you honestly say you feel differently?

[adirondakjack]

Doc, I don't disagree with any except the last bit. We, none of us, are more valuable, more worthy of life than our innocent neighbors. Many a truck driver, faced with a choice of a head-on collision with a car, or going over the bank down 400 ft, would take the cliffl if the situation was not the other guy's fault..... To do otherwise suggests yer "special", that the innocent ought to give his life to save yours....

Of course in the ideal situation only the BG goes out, everybody else makes it, but taking collateral damage as an OK calculus bothers me. I don't wanna be the neighbor, nor live with the burden of that choice if the neighbor gets it.... When I lived in a really densely populated area, my HD gun was a SXS loaded with 7 1/2 "light target" loads. Best compromise I could come up with..... Here, it's not quite as dicey, but the chance of a neighbor getting it is still there. .380 loaded with hot (corbon type) loads is the go to.... Calculus is always effective in a potential (if unlikely) HD scenario, yet unlikely to kill the neighbor even at that.