TRAIL BOSS IN MARLIN 1881 .45 GOVT

[GEOFF]

Gentlemen,

Last summer I purchased a Marlin 1881 in .45-70, factory letter shows shipped in June 1883. Probably the nicest old lever action that I own, has double set triggers and in pretty darn nice shape.

I want to get this old rifle ready to shoot in an up coming silhouette match. I have always used 5744 in my old rifles. I remember SIXGUN'S experience with 5744 and as long as I'm making up new loads and sight settings for this old Marlin I figured that I'd switch to TRAIL BOSS.

I read the recent thread on reduced loads for the .45-70. I picked up a couple of loads with TRAIL BOSS there. My problem is that I don't know if they are on the HIGH SIDE of TRAIL BOSS pressure or at the LOWER end????

How does 14.0 grains of TRAIL BOSS sound with a 300 grain Meister on top of it?????

I loaded up some 500 grain Meisters on top of 24.0 grains of XMP 5744 last night. They seem to shoot with great promise. Sure love lobbing them in at long range and see that HUGE bullet SPLASH!!!! Seems the old rifle will digest a diet of these with no problem.

I've fired 1000's of rounds out of my Marlin 1881 .40-60 using 5744. But it was made in 1889 and is a version or two revised later than this 1883 built 1881. I SURE DON'T WANT TO HURT THIS OLD SWEETHEART.

Any of you guys thoughts on this I'd appreciate.

Geoff

[1886]

http://www.imrpowder.com/data/rifle/tra ... ct2005.php I used the .38-55 data for an 1881 with double set triggers. 1886.

[Hobie]

Trail Boss is bulky but fairly "fast". Some folks like ScottT noticed some anomalous pressure spiking with some cartridges when loading the .45-70. Frankly, I'd stick to 5744 or SR4759 or BLACK... That gun is old and deserves respectful care.

[6pt-sika]

I used Trail Boss some in my old Marlin 1895 in 40-82 . This rifle was not made in the 1880's but rather 1896

Anyway this stuff practically filled up the 40-82 cases with like 15 grains I think !

I was looking more for a hunting load in this rifle and the velocitites I was getting were down in the 1100-1200 range .

So to say I was not overly impressed is a fair statement !

[6pt-sika]

Frankly, I'd stick to 5744 or SR4759 or BLACK...

I'll agree 110% with your recommendation of XMP5744 and SR4759 !

But for the BP I don't want the worries of that stuff possibly leaving reisdue back inside the action where I cannot readily get to it !

I have no problem shooting BP in a buffaol rifle or a sidelock ML but thats it !

[Sixgun]

Geoff,
Despite my "near disasterous" experience with 5744, I still use it. In fact, I buy it in a case that holds two 8 pounders. .

I have spent many an hour trying to duplicate an overload in the 45-90 case. I did have some luck in the 35 WCF case which is a long one like the 45-90. In case you do not know, I use an RCBS Pro-2000 progressive for 99% of my loading and it seems the long case "may" have been instrumental in a possible overload in the 45-90.

I have since put into practice a new system for safety. The system is not rocket science, as I now weigh every loaded rifle round that is meant for a BP gun or a cartridge that is of the 2.4 length.

All 40-82's, 35 Winchesters, 40-65's, 45-90's, and some 45-70's get weighed. It only takes an extra couple of minutes on a digital scale. I have a plus/minus 5 grain window. In checking thousands of rounds, I have yet to find a mistake---and thats just the way its going to stay.

Just stay with starting loads for your 1881. I have witnessed Trail Boss giving huge velocity variations at the gunclub from other shooters. If I was going to use a real fast powder, I would use Unique--loose in the case. Then double and even triple check the powder levels---------Sixgun

[Chuck 100 yd]

I load 14 gr. Trail Boss under 325 and 350 gr bullets (cast) and they give 1125-1150 fps respectivly. Have chrono data if needed.
I think this is "starting to medium" as far as Trail Boss`s pressure range goes. They are very accurate and soft shooting loads that obturate the case well and are very clean burning.
I also shoot TB in the .444 Marlin for a plinking load.

The New Lyman reloading manual #49 states that when loading for the Win.`76` clones in .45-60 and .45-75 the case can be loaded to 100% case capacity (clean up to the bullet) with Trail Boss and that is in a toggle link rifle!!

Many say Trail Boss is no good but after some testing in my rifles I bought a 5# jug.

[1886]

Much misconception swirls around T.B. It is a wonderfully useful powder when used properly. T.B. is fast burning. It is also quite dense so it provides good loading density. It does not need to be compressed. T.B. is not to be hot rodded. I have shot much of it and found that it is best with moderately heavy for caliber bullets, 400gr .45 cal., 250gr .38cal. etc. Further, if kept at starting charge weights/ velocity, 950-1000fps in rifle length barrels, one will not run into problems. Remington 2 1/2 primers are to be recommended in larger rifle cases. T.B. is not deterrent laden, it is not hard to ignite. If you reload, you must have a chronograph. I chronograph much of my reloads. I have never seen inconsistency with T.B. when loaded with moderately heavy for caliber bullets and starting charges. To date I have over 4500 rounds fired in various arms with T.B. In fact, it is most consistent. 950-1000fps is optimum. If one wants to go faster, other powders are to be preferred. A call to I.M.R. will confirm these findings. Be Safe, 1886.

[Ysabel Kid]

I agree with the others - 5744 is the best choice as an alternative to black powder in antique guns. There are some other powders, but I would be hesitant about using Trail Boss in an old gun. Don't get me wrong - I like TB and use it in my CAS loads for handgun catridges. I use in in .45-70 cartridges for modern reproductions like my Browning 1886 SRC or the H&R 1873 Trapdoor. But given it's pressure spike and fast buring nature, I'd shy away from it for true antiques.

[cowboykell]

I have quit using 5744 as a black powder substitute, leaves too much residue, unburnt kernels. I'm very pleased with Trail Boss. What is your basis for the "pressure spike"?

[Mike D.]

I used Trail Boss some in my old Marlin 1895 in 40-82 . This rifle was not made in the 1880's but rather 1896

Anyway this stuff practically filled up the 40-82 cases with like 15 grains I think !

I was looking more for a hunting load in this rifle and the velocitites I was getting were down in the 1100-1200 range .

So to say I was not overly impressed is a fair statement !

I have never used 5744 and probably never will, but there is a BIG difference in barrel steels between the 1881 Marlin and the REAL 1895. All '95s, regardless of caliber, were made with "Special Smokeless Steel" barrels. Those barrels have a high nickel content and can take considerably higher pressures than the comparitively soft ordnance steel of the older rifles. I would look into IMR 3031 and 4198. I used both in my original 1876 Winchester with nice results. 32 grains of 4198 and a 300 grain bullet was fine in my .45-60.

[w30wcf]

GEOFF,
Like others have said, I too would not recommend Trail Boss for your vintage 1881 Marlin Rifle. The factory .45-70-405 black powder load developed 17,000 C.U.P. pressure. I would not exceed that pressure. IMR shows a start load of 14.0/Trail Boss under a 300 gr. bullet at almost 20,000 C.U.P.

When smokeless .45-70 ammunition was introduced starting in 1895, DuPont No. 1 was the propellant. It had a burning rate similar to 4198. A few years later, L&R introduced "Sharpshooter" which they developed as a smokeless replacement for b.p. It had a burning rate similar to todays 2400.

Unique could have been used by the factories to load .45-70 ammunition back then, but it was not, and for good reason....too fast burning. Same goes for Trail Boss.

A history lesson from past ballisticians........

w30wcf

[Stone Fence]

Put me down as seconding SR-4759-- it is an excellent bulky smokeles powder for the old BP cases.
-Stone

[GEOFF]

I came to the right place to ask my question!!!

That is a BUNCH of great experience and information that you guys have written above. I really appreciate it!!!!

I was glad to get the info of the psi or cup of the original BP load for the .45-70! I knew I didn't want to even really match that pressure to give me a bit of leeway with the smokeless. That was great info w30wcf and thanks!

If this gun wasn't such an antique I'd most likely stay with Trail Boss. This afternoon I shot about 10 rounds of the 14.0 grain under a 300 grain Meister and liked it just fine. But seeing the fairly high pressure for the velocity realized, I think that I'll go back to 5744 for all loads with this rifle. I knew that TBOSS gave low velocity and I was just fine with that I just didn't know that it still had pretty high pressure.

I sure agree with 6ptsika about the BP, I don't mind it in a single shot but worry about cleaning problems in a fairly complicated lever gun.

Thanks to Sixgun for clearing up the episode with 5744. I'm glad you are still using it. It was that episode that made me leery of using it in my 1881's. Cowboykel is right on with the comment about unburnt powder and residue with 5744. I don't like it either but it sure seems to shoot consistently.

1886, thanks for sharing your considerable experience with Trail Boss. You are correct, I need a chronograph. Can't believe I don't have one yet, always seems there is another gun looming up right when I should've bought a chronograph. I know they are pretty cheap these days. You and Chuck have had good experience with TBoss and I'll probably leave it in my powder measure for some .45 LColt reduced loads. I'm just super worried about that 125 year old metal in that 1881 Marlin.

Thanks to the other guys for weighing in too. I've reloaded for almost 30 years and know a bit but it was nice to get great advice from you all on this question regarding a load for this old rifle. I sure didn't want to be posting pictures of my blown up gun and shrapnel laden face and THEN asking what I did WRONG!!!!!

Geoff

[GANJIRO]

My dad was always a fan of IMR4198 for his 45/70 loads for his Trapdoor Springfields shooting cast plain base 400 grain from a Lyman mold.