POLITICS - Like talking to a brick wall

Jason_W · Post by **Jason_W** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:32 am

I'm a member of a musician's forum which attracts people from all walks of life. On the politics forum there, gun control is a hot topic.

Here is one of my posts, which I thought was pretty well thought out.

The best reason to own guns is not for defense against a government, But for general defense after that government stops working (even though it could be argued that presently, the government doesn't actually work)

There are some people who think the government wants to own and control people and we need guns to fight them when they finally go too far. In my opinion, the control ship has already sailed. Look at your average office zombie or blue collar wage slave. Mostly people go to work and go home and watch TV. I think the government knows it's easier to keep people in line with endless hours of reality TV than with pesky concentration camps. But that's neither here nor there for this particular argument.

Governemnts are largely corrupt and made up of self serving incompetent people. It's only a matter of time before such an organization decays from within and falls apart. Then what?

What happens to us regular folk when all the services we have become so dependent upon stop working? Police, EMTs, Fire fighters, etc, aren't going to work for free. Each individual will be on his or her own.

Most people think such a scenario could never happen here, but that is complacency at its finest. The fact that all of our infrastructure is run by oil and that our dollar isn't doing all that great on a global scale should make everyone at least a little weary.

It won't take a nuclear war to touch off lawlessness. All it will take is a crappy economic situation. What would happen to the country if the price of fuel doubled at the same time the value our money became half of what it is presently? What would happen if in addition to this, the lights in your city went out for a week? A month? indefinitely?

How does this relate to gun control?

Well, ask yourself a couple of questions.

1. How far fetched is the above scenario?

2. In such a scenario, wouldn't you rather be armed?

I've read numerous accounts of people being staunchly anti-gun until the s---- hits the fan. The minute a riot breaks out, looting begins, and police seem unwilling or unable to contain the mess, the same ivory tower intellectuals who only the day before were rabidly calling for the banning of all guns, are begging their gun owning neighbors for a loaner.

Just because you live in a time in place where you don't currently need a gun, doesn't mean it will always be this way. "It can't happen here" are common famous last words.

Jason_W · Post by **Jason_W** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:34 am

And now this little gem of a response:

"noreaster80's scenario is very far fetched.

Economic shocks worse than the doubling of fuel or the halving of the value money have been shouldered frequently enough to know that it's going to take more than that to break down society.

Even though immature mentalities like to believe government isn't working, it is working for the most part. Maybe the government does things you don't like, it certainly does things I don't like, but it's working.

And corruption is as old as mankind. Doesn't mean you can't do something about, but the idea that the anarchy noreaster80 envisions is a suitable alternative is laughable.

And if you guys get too dangerous with you guns we'll just pry em away from your dead fingers."

How do I respond to that? The poster in question is the textbook definition of a wealthy ivory tower liberal. Is it any surprise a rich person thinks the government works?

kimwcook · Post by **kimwcook** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:48 am

How does an unarmed individual have the capability to pry the firearm from my dead fingers?

I still like the statement from I think it was from John Adams "Those that beat their rifles into plows will plow for those that don't".

Some people just can't grasp an idea until their hit on the head with it.

cutter · Post by **cutter** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:50 am

1. Do not respond directly to questions, instead state the facts even if not relevant to the question. Remember , it is YOUR agenda, don't let them take ownership by answering questions THEY are prepaired to answer.
2. Examples are better than theories.
2. Stay cool, no insults.
4. Do not respond to insults.
5. DO NOT INSULT THE INTELLIGENCE OF WHOM YOU ARE DEBATING. Be the good guy, let them be the fool.
6. Remember rule number one, as what you say WILL be taken out of context at a later date. Very important.

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 12:38 am

Like all leftist positions, logic, facts, and history are never on their side.

So, you'll never get a logical, fact-based answer from one!

Nate Kiowa Jones · Post by **Nate Kiowa Jones** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 1:56 am

The ivory tower liberal obviously didn't have to live through a Katrina storm.

My favorite,"The golden rule of history. Those with the weapons make the rules."

Jeeps · Post by **Jeeps** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 5:40 am

Tell them to "never laugh at a disaster scenario" we have 6 billion people in this world and at least 300 million here at home.

What happens if a nice volcano burps hard and cools the earth for 2-4 years and our already strained farms cant provide food for us? I know most everyone in the United States doesn't know what its like to be hungry. But they might have to find out the hard way.

Or even worse, if the libs are right

and everything dries up in the heat?

Ask what 300 million people do in a horrible drought? Who eats first? I think I know the answer

RIHMFIRE · Post by **RIHMFIRE** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 8:29 am

"What happens to us regular folk when all the services we have become so dependent upon stop working? Police, EMTs, Fire fighters, etc, aren't going to work for free. Each individual will be on his or her own. "

Isn't that the way it used to be.....
Where I grew up, in the appalachian mountains of new york,
we had no sevices... We relied on ourselves...
We did not need a police force....because we had no crime...
Emts....back then were unheard of...
Firefighter...they were mostly volunteers....
Times have certainly changed....But
A COUNTRY BOY CAN SURVIVE

Junior · Post by **Junior** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 9:30 am

Jason_W wrote:And now this little gem of a response:

"noreaster80's scenario is very far fetched.

Wrong. His scenario will happen in the lifetime of most of us on this forum. When Iran gets a nuclear weapon they will use it. Not "if" but "when." When North Korea solves the logistic problem of transporting a nuclear weapon to terrorists and the technical problem of hiding the weapon's signature, they will sell a nuclear weapon for several billion dollars. Again, it's "when" and not "if."

And as to what will happen when my scenario happens, just imagine a 1,000 unit apartment complex one week after the commodes won't flush.

Jason_W · Post by **Jason_W** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 9:45 am

Junior wrote:
Jason_W wrote:And now this little gem of a response:

"noreaster80's scenario is very far fetched.
Wrong. His scenario will happen in the lifetime of most of us on this forum. When Iran gets a nuclear weapon they will use it. Not "if" but "when." When North Korea solves the logistic problem of transporting a nuclear weapon to terrorists and the technical problem of hiding the weapon's signature, they will sell a nuclear weapon for several billion dollars. Again, it's "when" and not "if."

And as to what will happen when my scenario happens, just imagine a 1,000 unit apartment complex one week after the commodes won't flush.

It's scary from the perspective of someone living rural. Rural homes tend to be a little more self sufficient than urban or suburban homes. This means that you have something others will want and will be a target for predators leaving the city in search of new hunting grounds.

Junior · Post by **Junior** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 10:16 am

Jason_W wrote:It's scary from the perspective of someone living rural. Rural homes tend to be a little more self sufficient than urban or suburban homes. This means that you have something others will want and will be a target for predators leaving the city in search of new hunting grounds.

Exactly. Think of distance in terms of a tank of gasoline. If you live one tank away from a large urban area, the shoulders of your roads will be lined with out-of-gas vehicles filled with hungry children and panic stricken adults.

I live 4 hours north of New Orleans. I witnessed the stream of north-bound traffic and the fear in my fellow small town residents brought on by the sudden influx of outsiders. And the rumors. . . . One rumor had a van load of gangbangers headed north and robbing and killing along their way. I shudder to think of what would have surely happened had a van of black ball players stopped at a local convenience store for gas.

Jeeps · Post by **Jeeps** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 10:18 am

This is all reminding me of a PDF book I downloaded. I read about half before my old comp crashed and can't remember the name.

It was about terrorists setting off nuclear bombs in our atmosphere and frying everything that relied on electricity.

The main characters were offered a place at a compound but refused in order to help friends and they set up in a cul-de-sac.

Does anyone remember the name? I would sure like to finish the story.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 10:21 am

cutter wrote:1. Do not respond directly to questions, instead state the facts even if not relevant to the question. Remember , it is YOUR agenda, don't let them take ownership by answering questions THEY are prepaired to answer.
2. Examples are better than theories.
2. Stay cool, no insults.
4. Do not respond to insults.
5. DO NOT INSULT THE INTELLIGENCE OF WHOM YOU ARE DEBATING. Be the good guy, let them be the fool.
6. Remember rule number one, as what you say WILL be taken out of context at a later date. Very important.

+1 What Cutter said.

Jason_W · Post by **Jason_W** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 10:23 am

Jeeps wrote:This is all reminding me of a PDF book I downloaded. I read about half before my old comp crashed and can't remember the name.

It was about terrorists setting off nuclear bombs in our atmosphere and frying everything that relied on electricity.

The main characters were offered a place at a compound but refused in order to help friends and they set up in a cul-de-sac.

Does anyone remember the name? I would sure like to finish the story.

It's called lights out. I have it on my work machine. The PDF is about 2 megs. I can email it if you can receive a file that big.

Wayne Miller · Post by **Wayne Miller** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 10:29 am

The title of the book you are looking for is "Lights Out", by Halfast. It can be found here: http://www.giltweasel.com/stuff/LightsOut-Current.pdf

This story originated at the Frugal Squirrel forum, which is an invaluable resource for dealing with disasters, and self-sufficient daily life. If you aren't a member, you owe it to yourself to take a look here: http://www.frugalsquirrels.com/vb/index.php

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 10:45 am

Don't need a Nuke to build an EMP device...

All you have to do is know a little bit about explosive propigation and how to wind a coil...

Jason_W · Post by **Jason_W** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 10:47 am

I think what really gets to me is the fact that if you suggest that widescale disaster and depression is a real possibility, you are immediately viewed as a paranoid, tinfoil hat wearing nutcase who spend every eveing huddled in one corner of his fallout shelter clutching a loaded shotgun and letting the songs that "the voices" sing lull you off to sleep.

I see the decline of this nation being a natural consequence for poor economic decisions and a generally unsustainable lifestyle. If you are too wasteful for too long, it will eventually catch up with you. This is common sense, not paranoia.

I guess it all boils down to the fact that people refuse to listen to any ideas that conflict with their own personal world view.

Jason_W · Post by **Jason_W** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 10:48 am

Old Ironsights wrote:Don't need a Nuke to build an EMP device...

All you have to do is know a little bit about explosive propigation and how to wind a coil...

Can you make a portable emp device? It would be great for pranks at the office

"Ha Ha. I fried all the hard drives in the building. Gimme a raise."

cutter · Post by **cutter** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 11:12 am

Jason_W wrote:
Old Ironsights wrote:Don't need a Nuke to build an EMP device...

All you have to do is know a little bit about explosive propigation and how to wind a coil...
Can you make a portable emp device? It would be great for pranks at the office

"Ha Ha. I fried all the hard drives in the building. Gimme a raise."

Yep. One of my wifes FORMER employees did. I'm not sure if I want to say how he did it, but he did fry two PC's.

I do admit it was pretty clever...

Jeeps · Post by **Jeeps** » Sat Dec 22, 2007 3:13 am

I WEAR MY TIN FOIL HAT WITH PRIDE

But seriously, TYVM for the link. I've been wanting to finish the story and for the life of me couldn't remember the title. As soon as I saw it in Jasons post I smacked myself right in the forehead

The Idiocy is not in believing it could happen, it's in believing it couldn't happen.

It doesn't even have to be the whole country, If they lost power on the east coast and everyone remained calm except for a small portion of Albany,NY who became unsettled and headed north and picked my house for forcefull resupply of food and water or looting.......

Then it would matter if there was peace everywhere else, I would be in my own personal Armeggedon

And have to worry about defending my family, and I don't think "can't happen here" will do them any good.

DDude · Post by **DDude** » Sat Dec 22, 2007 7:52 am

To be honest we're not all that far away from things going south. Our society moves on oil. With the price of diesel fuel climbing steadily the price people will pay for products they need/want/demand is going to increase as well. As prices increase, businesses lose customers. People lose jobs. The cycle begins to perpetuate.

The last time I filled the tanks on the truck I drive (I'm a company driver) the tab was $625. The end consumer buying food, clothing and shelter ultimately pays the cost.

We're an extremely wasteful and materialistic society so intent on our toys and gottahaveit stuff that we're not living life but playing with life.

POLITICS - Like talking to a brick wall

POLITICS - Like talking to a brick wall

"Lights Out"