How far can you shoot with iron sights?

drboomboom · Post by **drboomboom** » Sat Aug 30, 2008 1:58 pm

I'm virtually a newbie with lever guns and rifles in general. I owned a .22lr remington semi-auto many years ago and went deer hunting for a couple of seasons using a Marlin 444 without much practice, so that's it. I do shoot handguns quite a bit, though.

Anyway, I bought a Winchester 94 30-30 recently and am getting a new, to me, Weaver scope from TNBigBore. In the meantime, I took off the scope that came with the rifle and went to the range today to see what I could do with iron sights. Taking 13 shots at 25 yards offhand, standing position, all but two shots stayed inside the outer ring (3.5" radius). Ten shots stayed in the 2.5" radius ring, and of those three were in the center ring and three more in the second ring. I would guess that any of the shots would have been a kill on a whitetail. I took 3 more shots at 50 yds and stayed on the paper with one shot in the second ring and one just in the outer ring.

This of course is not great shooting, but it was better than I thought I'd do. So, how far out can an old f**t with practice expect to be able to get with iron sights and some practice? Say, offhand standing or resting an arm in a hunting situation? Also, how about the experts? How far can they shoot with iron sights?

reo · Post by **reo** » Sat Aug 30, 2008 2:16 pm

I have two 30-30's that will shoot under two inches at 100 yards. In the military we shot at 300 meters routinely with the M16 with open sights and 500 with the M14 with open sights. I think open sights work very well. The quality of the sights make a difference. Learning the fundamentals and practicing them in dry and live fire will shrink your groups substantially.

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Sat Aug 30, 2008 2:25 pm

I've had a couple winchester 94's that I was able to shoot 100 yard 3 shot groups of slightly inder an inch with peep sights. 3" 100 yd groups is pretty common under decent conditions.

As far as extended ranges, it's possible to regulalry hit the 24" steel plate at 600 yards steel with the 1917 Enfield, I just made 4 out of 7 the other evening, tho the front sight is dented a bit and hard to see that far out. I was sort of cheating tho, I was kneeling. I try to do most of my practice offhand. It's still possible to hit the 600 yard plate pretty regular with iron sights off hand. A scope helps quite a bit. We plink at small clumps of brush or rocks out to about 1200 yards, and it's not impossible by any means to make hits. I'm no expert, there's guys around here that make me try real hard to look like I know which end to point down range.

As far as hunting, I wouldn't shoot much past 200 yards with irons, it's hard to see animals clearly in the field, and I want to be sure when I pull the trigger on game.

Modoc ED · Post by **Modoc ED** » Sat Aug 30, 2008 2:33 pm

With open sights off hand with that .30-30, you should be able to put ALL your rounds in a 6" diameter circle at 100 yards with ease whether standing, sitting, prone, kneeling, or with your off hand supported on a tree, fence post, etc.. Add a peep/receiver sight and practice a whole bunch and you ought to be able to extend that to 200 yards -- maybe a tad more.

However, never let your ability to hit a paper tartet at an extended range influence your decision to take a shot on live game and ALWAYS consider the caliber you are using for the range you are shooting.

The .30-30 is a fine cartride out to 150 yards for deer, elk, bear, hog, or whatever you are hunting but 200 yards is stretching it a bit -- my opinion. In comparison, use a .30-06 for the same game and you are good to go out to ranges of 300 yards plus.

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Sat Aug 30, 2008 2:35 pm

I would think for a 30-30, you could use them all the way out to max effective range of the cartridge. The front sight subtends quite a bit of the target out at 100 yards. I used open sights to 1000 yards with my M1A in competition. quality of sights is important and having the right sights for your purpose is essential.

Nath · Post by **Nath** » Sat Aug 30, 2008 2:39 pm

When I had a peep on my 94 I reconed I could shoot deer to 100yds. The prob for me is poor light an shooting smaller critters too other wise I would love to ditch the scope.
If I trailed wilderness of which there is none in Britain I would ditch the scope.

Nath.

jd45 · Post by **jd45** » Sat Aug 30, 2008 3:26 pm

It seems to me, it would depend on how big or small a target you're attempting to hit; how much light you have; AND how good your eyes are. Nontcha just LOVE those Nikon scopes???? I do! jd45

drboomboom · Post by **drboomboom** » Sat Aug 30, 2008 3:41 pm

Good info and tips.

Rjohns, that was one of the things I wondered. Just how much the sights themselves would interfere at long ranges.

Reo, I have a friend who is helping me with the fundamentals. None of the local stores had snap caps for the 30-30 and I thought I'd have to send away until I started making my own. Being a reloader, I'd gotten dies for the 30-30 and made up a couple of empty rounds. A spent .22 cartridge is the perfect size to stamp out a plug for the primer pocket. I stamped them out of a 3/16" slice of Pearl eraser and glued them into the pockets.

Ed, you've just given me a good solid goal. All hits in the six inch circle at one hundred yards with iron sights. When I get the scope it will be on a side mount, so I can keep practicing toward this through hunting season.

Thanks all for sharing your wisdom and experience. I'm going to go dryfire some.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sat Aug 30, 2008 4:12 pm

I've seen individuals get 2" 100 yard groups (can't remember if was 5, 8, or 10 shot) with good aperture (peep) sights. I really don't understand how it is even possible, given the optic limitations of the human eye. Nevertheless, I've seen it at civillian marksmanship program matches with the Garand.

I think I can do 5 minutes of angle (about 5" at 100 yards) with good peeps, but no better. A 40x scope on a good rifle and you can get 1/4" if you do your best and the gun is good.

As far as DISTANCE, it is just a function of MOA - if you are ok with 2" then you better use 100 yards, but if you are ok with 8" then I'd assume you could be happy at 400 yards. The only 'extra' variables beyond the optics and geometry are the stability of the projectile as it goes subsonic, and the wind effect.

awp101 · Post by **awp101** » Sat Aug 30, 2008 4:14 pm

drboomboom wrote:I'm virtually a newbie with lever guns and rifles in general. I owned a .22lr remington semi-auto many years ago and went deer hunting for a couple of seasons using a Marlin 444 without much practice, so that's it. I do shoot handguns quite a bit, though.

As the old time mechanics would say, well there's yer problem!

You are learning a new style of shooting. No shame in the group size you turned in with an unfamiliar weapon. I don't spend near the time I need to with handguns or rifles but I notice my groupings tend to get a little better as the session goes on since I am reacquainting myself with whatever platform I'm using. Of course I still pattern at 25yds using a handgun since I don't usually practice that far with them.

I had a couple of guys who've "seen the elephant" tell me shooting skills are like bread: they go stale if left left unused.

Lefty Dude · Post by **Lefty Dude** » Sat Aug 30, 2008 5:14 pm

As far as your stock rear sight elevator will let you go. Effective range with the stock sights is about 200 yards. Add a receiver or tang sight for another 100 yards.

shdwlkr · Post by **shdwlkr** » Sat Aug 30, 2008 8:07 pm

I didn't see where you mention your age as the older you are the harder it gets to see the target as the range increases. Now if you are talking when I was a young pup and in service I used to go pick on the sniper students with an open sighted M14 and with the help of a spotter hit the silhouette targets at 1000 meters as my friend was the instructor and it was fun letting these newbies know that a scoped rifle didn't insure that a good shot with open sights couldn't ruin your day. Now 200 yards is a far as I like to try with open sights. At 60 the eyes are a little tired and things get fuzzy at long ranges without the aid of a scope. I have a scope on one of .36 caliber black powder rifles and shoot it at 200 yards.

Post by **Old Savage** » Sat Aug 30, 2008 8:30 pm

Shooting offhand adds another variable. Off the bench I have been able to go under and inch at 100 yds with a couple of rifles. Some here I know have done much better.

bj94 · Post by **bj94** » Sat Aug 30, 2008 10:04 pm

The size of the iron sights vs. the intended target is also important. I've shot the highpower rifle course with various rifles. The aiming bull is right about 6 m.o.a. Using the sights on a stock AR15 carbine, the front post is way too wide for me to use with a 6 m.o.a. aiming bull, and a whitetail at 100 yards is probably harder to aim at than the black 6 m.o.a. bull. OTOH with a 20" AR15 and a narrower front post as used for competition, precise aiming at smaller targets is easy. Applying this to leverguns, many 94's that I've handled have relatively small front beads and should be good for whitetails at 100 to 200 yards.

Long ago I shot IHMSA and NRA handgun silhouette. I noticed that with good light conditions and good contrast between the black targets and the background it was easy to get a good sight picture even on the 150 meter turkeys, but with questionable lighting or not much contrast between the targets and background, it was difficult and I wouldn't want to be shooting at game animals even at 100 yards.

El Chivo · Post by **El Chivo** » Sat Aug 30, 2008 10:24 pm

depends on the size of the target!

I sometimes use a front sight with a hole in the center, whatever you center within it gets hit.

the problem as I see it is coming up with a sight setting for it. The "paper" is so small after 200 yards you won't know where your misses are going.

Tang sights and adjustable receiver sights are probably better than scopes for long range because you reset them for the range, instead of just holding over.

KT-45 · Post by **KT-45** » Sat Aug 30, 2008 11:50 pm

I can "shoot" about 3000 yards, depending on the gun.

I can "hit" at about 500.

BIG difference!

Pisgah · Post by **Pisgah** » Sun Aug 31, 2008 7:39 am

With the standard sights on a 336 or 94, I have no problem making deer-killing shots to 100 yards. With a good receiver sight and a well-matched front sight, given a clear shot, I can manage the same on out to 200.

CraigC · Post by **CraigC** » Sun Aug 31, 2008 8:09 am

I figure if I can consistently reproduce a good enough sight picture to shoot into an inch at 100yds off the bench with buckhorns, a scope isn't really gonna gain me much. Other than in low light situations. The sights aren't the limiting factor, the shooter is (me).

Post by **Hobie** » Sun Aug 31, 2008 8:25 am

I have successfully shot to 500 yards with the M16 and 600 yards with my No. 4 MKI* .303 British. The old timers went to 1000 yards or more. I think that it is a matter of experience and matching sights to the target. It helps me to have contrast between target and background as well as between sight and target. Would I shoot at game at these ranges? No. Usually 200 yards is about absolute max in my area, 50-75 yards is much more the norm.

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Sun Aug 31, 2008 10:07 am

"Tang sights and adjustable receiver sights are probably better than scopes for long range because you reset them for the range, instead of just holding over."

Scopes are easily adjustable. Anyone that shoots long range seriously adjusts for the range. You set your zero for 100 yards, and with a range card and lazer range finder, adjust for the range encountered, and make first round hits at ridicules ranges.

http://demigodllc.com/articles/practica ... equipment/

Read all 3 parts of the article, interesting info if you're interested in long range shooting.

Post by **Old Savage** » Sun Aug 31, 2008 10:40 am

I watched a show on army snipers last night adjusting the scopes for range. They hit a silouette at 1000 yds almost center on the first shot calculating up from their zero and a light breeze, then shot to the center, then a five shot group of about 7" in the center.

No chance of doing that with iron sights.

What is the smallest iron sight group anyone knows of at 1000 yds.

Grizzly Adams · Post by **Grizzly Adams** » Sun Aug 31, 2008 11:30 am

My 1860 Uberti Henry in 44WCF will ring the steel out to 300 yards pretty consistently. A buddy of mine can hit the 500 yard steel 10 out of 10 with his Winnie 1892 SRC. He's a fair shot......

bj94 · Post by **bj94** » Sun Aug 31, 2008 8:56 pm

then a five shot group of about 7" in the center.

No chance of doing that with iron sights.

What is the smallest iron sight group anyone knows of at 1000 yds.

I think the highpower shooters can do that. I dare say that a good military team shooter can do that or almost do that with their M16, and the match rifle shooters can do it with a match rifle. I've read that the standard for accuracy with an M16 is a 4" wide x 6" tall group at 600 yards.

Little Doc · Post by **Little Doc** » Sun Aug 31, 2008 9:48 pm

billy dixon shot an indian off a horse at 1538 yds with a buffalo rifle and iron sights in the 1800's. your question leaves a lot to know. gun, caliber, load, light, wind. many factors will affect how far you can shoot with iron sights. i would say this, this will be different with each person, their gun, ammo and ability and some experience will go a long way. i think the YOU part of your question determines it all. and most of all you must have a sight with enough elevation to reach way out. as you can see from other post this is different for everyone. good iron sights are remarkable. nuf said. good luck
little doc

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sun Aug 31, 2008 11:04 pm

Little Doc wrote:billy dixon shot an indian off a horse at 1538 yds with a buffalo rifle and iron sights in the 1800's. your question leaves a lot to know. gun, caliber, load, light, wind. many factors will affect how far you can shoot with iron sights. i would say this, this will be different with each person, their gun, ammo and ability and some experience will go a long way. i think the YOU part of your question determines it all. and most of all you must have a sight with enough elevation to reach way out. as you can see from other post this is different for everyone. good iron sights are remarkable. nuf said. good luck
little doc

Little Doc,
You home from your travels? Glad to see ya around. And, I know someone that was pretty impressive with their iron sighted single shot and repeater... That steely-nerved coyote @ 437 yards wasn't safe from your 1876!

Comal Forge · Post by **Comal Forge** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 7:49 pm

Billy Dixon also admitted it was luck that he hit the Comanche on the horse. Drawings of the old Sharps targets from Creedmore have all the shots on target but the paper was pretty big - IIRC, 10'x10' or thereabouts. Modern Sharps shooters at Raton also do pretty well but wind always plays a factor - as it would when hunting; military snipers are required to hit with one shot, which is a major reason for going to the .50 BMG rifles - wind does not affect that 750 gr pill like a .30.

A little war story - I knew a fellow, now gone on to his reward, who was in the Ardennes during WW2. He enlisted in 1943 and also fought in Sicily so he carried an M1 Garand for his entire tour, which didn't end until the war ended in Europe. He didn't talk about the war unless he'd had a drink or two, but he once told us that they would routinely drop Germans out to 600 yds. during the Battle of the Bulge (when the trees weren't in the way). In fact, the GI's would place bets and pace off distances when there was a dispute. I knew him in the 1960's as I was growing up and no deer was safe when he had a .30-06 in his hands. Up until his death in 1973, he was still shooting an old 1903 Springfield with open sights and regularly killed deer at 300-400 yds.

Realistically, I think most people who don't shoot much should keep it to 100 yds or less but if you live with your rifle, you'll know its abilities - otherwise, stick to the sure thing.

In any case, practice, practice and more practice...

woods-walker · Post by **woods-walker** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 8:32 pm

Well that all just depends on what the intended target is. If we are talking about game in the field there are so many variables that can influence the answer to this question....

JReed · Post by **JReed** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 8:45 pm

We (USMC) have to shoot at the 500 yard line for our rifle qual with the M16. I have also shot my enfield out in the desert out past 600 with the micrometer sights that it wears. Long range shooting with irons doesnt depend on how well you can see the target it depends more on how well you can focus on the front sight and your ability to read the conditions i.e wind, mirage, light, and range estimation. It is almost just as easy to screw up a 100 yard shot as it is a 500 yard shot. Just takes practice and a good shooting position.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 11:43 pm

JReed wrote:It is almost just as easy to screw up a 100 yard shot as it is a 500 yard shot. Just takes practice and a good shooting position.

Jeremy... this line pegged my humor meter! Yep, every shot I've screwed up, be it 100 or 500 yards, was during practice in a good shooting position... OR so I THOUGHT!

danthegunman · Post by **danthegunman** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 12:22 am

When I was in the Corps. we shot at 200, 300 and 500 yds. but that was 25 yrs. ago.
Now, I shoot my Winchester 94 30-30 Trapper at distances 100-110 yds.

k8bor · Post by **k8bor** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 8:27 am

I'm 61 and can shoot 4" at 100 yards pretty consistently with aperature sights.

I use Williams FP's with a Merit #4 adjustable aperature on all my lever guns. For a front sight, I've equipped all mine with brass blades that I regulate to height myself and file a sharper profile on the tip. I can see the brass very well even when it's pretty dark, and with the adjustable aperature can always adjust the size to get a focused front sight for myself. I place the point of impact right at the very tip on top of the sight so I don't have the problem of the sight covering the target. I wear tri-focals, and at first thought my vision would be a big problem, but not so.

I loved the look of the leverguns without the scopes so much, I simply practiced with these sights until they became second nature, and now don't even consider not being able to hit with them. For me it was mostly a mind game of confidence building through shooting a lot.

When I hunt with other guys in Michigan here, some look at me like I'm nuts for hunting with open sights. It doesn't bother me at all. If a shot is iffy, or too far away, I simply don't take it. I like the ethics part of hunting too. Anything from 0 to 125 yards is well within range. I don't believe I've ever shot anything farther than that. Not because I couldn't. I simply haven't found one of those shots.

It all depends on what goals and/or limits you set for yourself.

BTW my bolt guns have laid in the cabinet for a long time too. There just not as much fun to shoot.

Post by **Old Savage** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 8:51 am

K8 - that all makes good sense. To me this question means - How far can you dependably hit a pie plate. --- a gray brown pie plate on a gray ground background.

k8bor · Post by **k8bor** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 9:15 am

Good question.

I don't have an answer for that specific situation, but I do shoot regularily at a 5"x5" piece of rusty 1-1/4" thick hanging steel plate at 100 yards against a similarily colored woods background.

Again, I guess it's just a matter of what you can and can't see. In all fairness, most of my hunting here is in Nov/Dec where all the leaves are gone from the trees, or nearly so, and there is normally a foot of snow on the ground so deer aren't too hard to see.

I guess my point was that all these things should be taken into account before you decide to shoot with open sights. I was just trying to give pointers on what I've found effective for me. It took a year or so of experimenting before I came up with the sight combo I did so that i WAS comfortable.

I've just really enjoyed that kind of hunting/shooting and wanted to share. Thanks.

drboomboom · Post by **drboomboom** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 9:40 am

There's an amazing amount of knowledge here. I'm printing all of this to save.

Mostly, I'm thinking in terms of hunting, but once I reach that initial goal, I'm going to continue on. And these posts will be of tremendous help. Thanks much to all.

Slick13 · Post by **Slick13** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 9:43 am

Both my lever guns have bead front sights. I can shoot nice groups at 50 yards, but can't shoot a group (even with the help of a bench) at 100 yards. If I was hunting, I wouldn't try to shoot beyond 75 yards.

With my 03A3 with it's blade front sight I have a much easier time at 100 yards. I feel relatively confident shooting at that distance from prone or sitting. Off hand (awful hand) is a different story. If I can keep 10 shots in the scoring on an SR-1 target, that's about all I can ask for (only shooting once a month).

I think part of my problem with my rifle shooting (aside from not having any formal instruction, and not getting to shoot very often) is being a shotgunner. Shooting a lot of clay targets has lead me to be a bit impatient, jerky with a trigger, and to focus on my target rather than my sights. I was at the range over the weekend working on .30-30 loads, and the friend that was with my asked about my POA and POI, and why there was so much difference between them "I like the gun to shoot a little high, like my shotgun, so it hits where I'm looking" He just rolled his eyes at me. I need to lower the POI and start working on focusing on the front sight.

~Michael

Post by **Old Savage** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 9:46 am

K8
"I guess it's just a matter of what you can and can't see." That is it. All you have said makes sense. And it sounds like you have worked this all out with practice. I found some of the best sights to use were the pointy ones on a military Mauser 7.65 Belgian. .9" at 100 yds if I recall correctly.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 12:07 pm

Malamute wrote:I've had a couple winchester 94's that I was able to shoot 100 yard 3 shot groups of slightly inder an inch with peep sights. 3" 100 yd groups is pretty common under decent conditions.

As far as extended ranges, it's possible to regulalry hit the 24" steel plate at 600 yards steel with the 1917 Enfield, I just made 4 out of 7 the other evening, tho the front sight is dented a bit and hard to see that far out. I was sort of cheating tho, I was kneeling. I try to do most of my practice offhand. It's still possible to hit the 600 yard plate pretty regular with iron sights off hand. A scope helps quite a bit. We plink at small clumps of brush or rocks out to about 1200 yards, and it's not impossible by any means to make hits. I'm no expert, there's guys around here that make me try real hard to look like I know which end to point down range.

As far as hunting, I wouldn't shoot much past 200 yards with irons, it's hard to see animals clearly in the field, and I want to be sure when I pull the trigger on game.

Bill, mayhap I'm misrecollecting, but seems we were smacking rocks pretty consistent off hand at 300yrds with a Garand a few years back.

alnitak · Post by **alnitak** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 12:22 pm

I really can't add much to what has been said already. Your eyes and proficiency will determine what you can hit at what distance. For me, I have fond recollections of regularly hitting a pie-plate sized target at 300 yards with a Marlin 1894 in .44mag with peep sights. Nowadays, however, I doubt my eyes will allow me to replicate that. But no reason to think that iron sights (even without a peep) can't be effective up to 200 yards, even for my old eyes.

O.S.O.K. · Post by **O.S.O.K.** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 2:49 pm

My advice to you if you are interested in hunting with iron sighted levergun:

1) get a good aperture sight - receiver mount, tang mount (I prefer Marbles as they are windage adjustable)
2) install a 1/16" brass or white bead for the front sight - again, Marbles is my pick
3) if you are buying a rifle for the purpose, I'd suggest one with 24" or 26" barrel - ie: Marlin "cowboy" type
4) practice from field positions - practice, practice
5) always opt for using a field rest/support if available
6) choose a more flat shooting cartridge like the 30-30 vs the 444

Aperture sights are the best for older eyes - they allow you to focus on the front sight only and allow the rear aperture to fuzz out - or "ghost" - thus, "ghost sights". You're eye will naturally place the bead in the middle of the aperture even thought it's not clearly defined. Use an "on" hold for your aiming - that is, place the front bead directly over the spot that you want the bullet to land. I find this to be the most natural and you don't get the sighting error that a six o'clock hold does.

The longer barrel is to increase the sight radius (distance between the rear and front sights) which reduces sighting errors and the 30-30 shoots plenty flat out to 200 yards - you can set the point of impact 2" high at 100 yards and still be only a little low at 200. If you have a 20 inch carbine and want to use that, go with a tang sight - it adds about 7" to the sight radius over the barrel mount rear sight - and 3" over the receiver aperture sights. It makes a difference.

That's my two centavos.

I can easily hit the kill zone 6" in diamter at 200 yards from a field supported postion - prone, sitting or leaning against a tree. I also make use of my sling as a "hasty sling" - wrapped around my left (weak side) arm to steady the rifle.

ETA: I want to say the above is for a "long range" set up - which is what you seem to be interested in. For 100 yard typical hunting range, a carbine with aperture sight is plenty good and many can shoot them well out to 200+ yards as well. The longer barrel really helps though - sighting and velocity of the rounds.

JReed · Post by **JReed** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 8:42 pm

Griff wrote:
JReed wrote:It is almost just as easy to screw up a 100 yard shot as it is a 500 yard shot. Just takes practice and a good shooting position.
Jeremy... this line pegged my humor meter! Yep, every shot I've screwed up, be it 100 or 500 yards, was during practice in a good shooting position... OR so I THOUGHT!

Thats what I am here for. If I can make some one laugh then I did my job.

I also have screwed up some nobrainer 100 yard shots on the same hand made shots at long range that even I have trouble believing. It all comes down to the basics in the end. Is your position a solid position are you using proper breath and trigger control and do you have good natural point of aim? Everything else can be adjusted for mechanically for the most part with the sighting system on the gun.

Comal Forge · Post by **Comal Forge** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 9:40 pm

Personally, the tough part for me is shooting in twilight or very early morning. It's easy to pop stuff at 9:00 am with the sun well up but it's wicked tough to see iron sights at dusk. Near as I can recall, most if not all the deer I've missed over the years were in low light conditions. I missed a nice buck last year with my muzzleloader; what was left of the available light was to my back so I took too much front sight and shot high. This is an extremely accurate rifle and will shoot 2 inch groups at 100 yds off the bench; had it been 30 minutes earlier, he would have been headed for the freezer - but it was late in the season and they were already traveling at night. Even peep sights are tough when all you can see are black shapes against a dark field. I suppose one of the lighted sights or an Aimpoint would be good but I don't currently own one.

Little Doc · Post by **Little Doc** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 10:40 pm

howdy griff
yep that yote was a hoot. as was the rest of the tgts. gota do that again. keep the rubber on the road.

back to the original question. this has taken several turns and many opinions have surfaced.
i think the answer to your original question is this. if you can't see it you can't hit it. your sights have to be something you can see and you must practice using the gun and sights at many different distances. a man will have a little trouble at 600 if he has never shot at 600. a lot of range time will make a lot of difference. if you can't afford or won't like a tang or reciever sight consider this. a full buckhorn sight will give you an appature sight if you think about it. zero in the lower notch for the closest distance you will shoot and move the front sight higher in the buckhorn as the distance increases. 100 rounds of ammo and a day on a 500 yd range will let you know more than you would imagine. go home reload the ammo and go at it again. repeat till you got it figured out. i know from where i speak as i have done this with a 94 win 30-30 with lead boolets. you will be amazed. then take a 22 and try it to 300 or so. you will be amazed here also. this will tell you where your limitations are. when you have learned this stay within the parimiters you have established and you will do well.
hope this helps
little doc