Recommendations for shooting rest and chrono

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alnitak
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Recommendations for shooting rest and chrono

Post by alnitak »

OK...so Rjohns94 has convinced my daughter to do her AP Physics project around ballistics, considering the effects of bullet size, weight, meplat, powder, etc. on trajectory. This is good, as it gives me an excuse to take her to the range. It also gives me an excuse to purchase a couple new toys "for the sake of her project". :D

So, I figure, in order to both eliminate variables and capture speed measurements I need to buy (at the minimum) a shooting rest and a chronograph. I don't have the ready cash to buy the best out there, but I still need "good" products that won't fall apart on the job, perform their job well and accurately, and give me a few years (more is better) of trouble-free use. I am open to buying used if the item is in good condition, but was thinking I'd just try to find something at Midway on sale.

Any recommendations, and thoughts on the project itself, would be most welcome.
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Re: Recommendations for shooting rest and chrono

Post by 86er »

We've used several Caldwell shooting rests and they have all been well made and user friendly. The Lead Sled is the original model and it will reduce felt recoil when you add weight. I do not have my own Chrony as just about everyone I shoot with does.
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alnitak
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Re: Recommendations for shooting rest and chrono

Post by alnitak »

Thanks Joe, I saw the Caldwell Lead Sled on Midway, and it got five stars in the reviews.

I must admit, never having used a rest, I'm not sure what to look for in one. For example, what about the ones for the front only? Or, are front and back supports better? Integrated with bean bags? Etc? Also, I'm assuming the vice ones are just for gunsmithing and not shooting, right? How do these things mount, or do they just sit there with some weight (I see references to bolting them down)?
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Re: Recommendations for shooting rest and chrono

Post by 86er »

The front rest will help accuracy but not to the extent the dual point rest will since the dual points eliminate human transfer of motion to the rifle to an extent. You can literally set the sight on the target just right, and totally lift your head out of the way while gently pulling the trigger, or even using a trigger release device. Also, the dual point rests with a strap or sleeve that encloses the back of a rifle butt will prevent the rearward motion from recoil to a degree and help keep barrel flip to a minimum. If you add weight to the rest, the movement of the rifle decreases even more. To me, the dual point rest is not necessary with light calibers and is cumbersome for heavy kickers, maybe 375 H&H and up. Somewhere in-between calibers work well with that type rest like 300 Win Mag, 358 or 348 Win. For a smaller shooter in reach and height or in weight, it would likely be effective for light kickers like 243, 7mm-08, 357 rifle, etc. I would look for a dual point rest, with a contraption that captures the butt of the rifle and the option of adding weight to the rest. Also, an easy and precise elevation adjustment on the front would be very good.
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Rimfire McNutjob
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Re: Recommendations for shooting rest and chrono

Post by Rimfire McNutjob »

I use a Caldwell Rock front rest and one of several Caldwell rear bags. This setup works reasonably well but doesn't absorb recoil at all like a LeadSled can.

For a chrono I use the Competition Electronics Pro unit with the digital remote. It mounts on a standard camera tripod. I went with this unit years ago because I felt it was probably more accurate and reliable given that I had used some of their other products in the past. I had also used a friend's Chrony and didn't like it as well.

However, if you get the chance, a newer unit where the display and control rest on the bench and only the sensors are on the tripod is a better way to go. I believe the RCBS AmmoMaster unit that Sixgun got recently is that type of unit. Also, CED and Pact make such units but they seem to be more expensive than the other units. If I get a new one I will get one with the remote display.

As I mentioned though, mine has the remote control so it's easy to use. If you want to borrow one, I'd be happy to box mine up and send it to you for your project.
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Re: Recommendations for shooting rest and chrono

Post by Cimarron »

I use a Caldwell Rock and rear bags with good results. I have to agree with the earlier statement though that it doesn't absorb recoil. I use and old Oehler 35P that my nephew bought 15 years ago. It still works great but I think chronograph prices have really come down in the last few years. I've seen some prices for as little as $99.
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Re: Recommendations for shooting rest and chrono

Post by 1886 »

Oehler makes a great product. Their customer service is super. One of my boys shot one of the "eyes." Oehler replaced it at no charge. 1886.
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Re: Recommendations for shooting rest and chrono

Post by Mike D. »

I just use a Caldwell padded front rest and Beta Master Chrony. Works for me. :)
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JReed
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Re: Recommendations for shooting rest and chrono

Post by JReed »

My input is if you are shooting a lot from the bench like it sounds like this project entails I would go with the lead sled. Shooting from a bench hurts if this is for a school project there is no point in adding physical pain to mental discomfort. :D
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alnitak
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Re: Recommendations for shooting rest and chrono

Post by alnitak »

Thanks all for the input, and Rimfire, thanks for the generous offer of a loaner. Let me ponder that a bit and get back to you.

I see I have to give some thought as to the rifles we're going to use. I don't have all that many calibers to choose from, just .22lr, .30-30, .44 spl/mag and .45-70. I guess we could also use the Mini-14 as well, though I would need different ammo. I traded my .38/.357 however, which would have been the ideal rifle for my daughter, I think, given how soft shooting the .38 is.

I expect I'll do most of the shooting. The .44 mag and .45-70 probably offer the most options when it comes to bullet weight and meplat, but there are no "pointy" bullets I can use with them (are there?) to ultimately test the effect of wind resistance, and I'm not sure we'll see the effects at 100 yards (my max range distance) of meplat size anyway. At least the .30-30 has Leverevolution I can use, though not much else is variable with factory ammo. So, recoil shouldn't be that much of an issue since I'll be the one mostly behind the rifle.

I was hoping that 20-30 shots with 3-4 different weights would be a statistically significant (and sufficient) data set. Although we haven't designed the experiment yet, I figured I would start her off with .22lr at a couple distances, with two different weight bullets, and standard vs. high velocity. She's never shot before, so she may not make it past the .22lr. If she does OK with it, the .44 would be next with special loads -- they're still pretty soft to shoot, even out of my Trapper. I'd probably load the bullets to cowboy loads, both to minimize the recoil and accentuate the drop at longer distances. I think the .30-30 and .45-70 will be too much for her.

Any other thoughts on how to structure the experiment?
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AJMD429
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Re: Recommendations for shooting rest and chrono

Post by AJMD429 »

As far as a chronograph, I use a Beta-Chrony, and it is FINE if you don't mind jotting the numbers down, and entering them into your computer spreadsheet or whatever later. I'm sure the ones with the built-in more user-friendly statistical functions are more convenient, and the computer interfaces (an option I haven't purchased, but available I think with the Chrony) would save time as well. But for me, I pretty much just want the raw numbers, and I'll type them up later into a spreadsheet sometimes, jot them in a notebook sometimes, just look at them and go "Hmmm...." sometimes, and sometimes even just shrug and ignore them.

As far as a shooting rest, they all seemed so over-priced, first of all, PLUS so many of them wouldn't accomodate LEVERGUNS without lifting off the gun each time to work the lever. Same for 'pistol grip' guns like AR-15's for many of the rests, or with extended magazines. But the real deal-breaker was the inability to work the lever on a levergun without removing it from the rest.

With some scrap lumber, and about $50 and a trip to Ace Hardware, I built mine in a couple hours. Here's some pictures; the original "write-up" I posted was just before the last forum computer crashed, but this can give some idea of the concept. It, too is a "lead sled" type design, able to accomodate up to five 25-lb bags of shot when the 'weight tray' is on it.

Sorry the pics and narrative isn't in the most logical order, but here's the basics, if you think you might be tempted. I can elaborate on any part of it if you want. Was a quick project, and one we STILL use as our 'preferred' rest, vs. several other purchased ones, and several 'bag' type rests we have available.

Rear 'foot' is the elevation fine-adjustment, easily accessed with the left hand while in shooting position without right hand leaving the grip/trigger area. (Design is ambidexterous, so would be same for left-hand shooters).
Image
Front rest detail:
Image
One shot-bag on the optional weight-tray:
Image
Rest in use with Levergun with narrow forend:
Image
Rest in use with Bolt-gun with wide forend:
Image
A quick 'spin' of the front rest lets it slip to the side and be moved to the next lower or higher 'range' position.
Image
Built-in level (fancy, huh...!)
Image
The front left 'foot' allows quick and easy leveling adjustments.
Image
In this position, the front rest will accept a wide beavertail bolt-gun forestock.
Image
A quick 'spin' of the front rest will fit even the narrow 'slimmed' old-fashioned 1889 Marlin forearms.
Image
Even the curvaceous 50-round magazine on an AMT 10/22 clone is useable.
Image
The 'weight tray' easily holds over 100 lbs of weight (shot bags) or can be used simply as a place to put ammunition, used brass, notes, or whatever. Removable as well.
Image
Pistol-grips and extended magazines, no problem.
Image
The raised rear rest can be mounted to the main platform in three positions - 'Garand', 'Marlin 336', and 'Shorty-AR'. Wingnuts make the switch a matter of seconds, yet secure and stable.
Image
The rest can accomodate lever-actions without constantly lifting the gun off the rest to work the action. The leather piece at the rear of the stock is the ONLY non-Ace-Hardware item I used, scavenged from another commercial rest.
Image
The square board section up front assures uprights are 'squared' and that helps the front support be quick to raise and lower and make snug.
Image
Last edited by AJMD429 on Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:57 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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alnitak
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Re: Recommendations for shooting rest and chrono

Post by alnitak »

Very cool, AJ! I like.

Good point about the lever action. I think I had seen your original post a while back, but forgot about it. You are right, though, with the lever guns and to minimize variables (i.e., resetting the rifle each time) it might be better to make my own (though that in itself is a project that will probably take me longer than hers!).

I may be back to bean bags and my own limited skills to keep as small a grouping as possible. Hopefully, I'll be consistent enough that the initial control data set will suffice to zero out any errors I introduce.
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AJMD429
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Re: Recommendations for shooting rest and chrono

Post by AJMD429 »

alnitak wrote:Hopefully, I'll be consistent enough that the initial control data set will suffice to zero out any errors I introduce.
One thing to keep in mind is that if the judges are good ones, they tend to place 90% of the evaluation on the Idea (new and original, or dredged off a list of 'Science Fair Projects' somewhere), the Innovation (practical or novel approach to design experiment within the student's means with which to investigate their hypothesis), and the Analysis.

A good analysis (describing the rationale of the experiment's particular design, the strengths of it, and especially any potential weaknesses, describing what further experiments or modifications could be done to overcome those weaknesses, and viewing the conclusions not only through the rose-colored-glasses of a kid as to what wonderful world-changing things could result, but also the humility to enumerate any caveats or particular cautions in terms of being too broad or enthusiastic about application) of disappointing, insufficient, or even inaccurate, data, can be indicative of a greater project than some canned, half-hearted spreadsheet with little or no depth, even if the 'gathered data' is just perfect.
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alnitak
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Re: Recommendations for shooting rest and chrono

Post by alnitak »

AJMD429 wrote:
alnitak wrote:Hopefully, I'll be consistent enough that the initial control data set will suffice to zero out any errors I introduce.
One thing to keep in mind is that if the judges are good ones, they tend to place 90% of the evaluation on the Idea (new and original, or dredged off a list of 'Science Fair Projects' somewhere), the Innovation (practical or novel approach to design experiment within the student's means with which to investigate their hypothesis), and the Analysis.

A good analysis (describing the rationale of the experiment's particular design, the strengths of it, and especially any potential weaknesses, describing what further experiments or modifications could be done to overcome those weaknesses, and viewing the conclusions not only through the rose-colored-glasses of a kid as to what wonderful world-changing things could result, but also the humility to enumerate any caveats or particular cautions in terms of being too broad or enthusiastic about application) of disappointing, insufficient, or even inaccurate, data, can be indicative of a greater project than some canned, half-hearted spreadsheet with little or no depth, even if the 'gathered data' is just perfect.
Good advice, thanks.

I'm already concerned that the judges won't be sympathetic to her project, given it involves guns, bullets and shooting -- especially in light of the recent tragedy. We live in Virginia, just outside of Washington, DC. With the liberal Washington Post ranting about the evils of guns every day, the atmosphere isn't too conducive to a project on ballistics, so we'll see what happens.
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AJMD429
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Re: Recommendations for shooting rest and chrono

Post by AJMD429 »

alnitak wrote:I'm already concerned that the judges won't be sympathetic to her project, given it involves guns, bullets and shooting -- especially in light of the recent tragedy.
Well, if it's all about the guns POLICE use to keep us SAFE, then maybe it's OK... :roll:
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mod71alaska
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Re: Recommendations for shooting rest and chrono

Post by mod71alaska »

IIRC, I saw Caldwells on sale at either Cabela's or on the Caldwell web site.
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